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More drugs = more size, BUT....

I was just taking dbol and only last 3 weeks at 40mg. It actually gave me an epiphany, no joke. It made my appetite go to shit, made me look bloated and bloofy, made my joints ache like crazy, and gave bad back pumps. It made me wonder why the hell I am doing this when I already look good the way I do now. I have been off for a week and lost 7lbs and look the best I ever have in my life. totally off topic, sorry

No I agree. I think I needed that puffy look though. I had lost some weight due to not eating. Then I came off everything which didn't help and I lost abit more. I have put on 20 pounds in 3 weeks. People say your either a love or hate with adrol. But I am both and I don't mean I love the gains but hate the sides. Each brand I have used as been completely different.

Although I am getting fed up of feeling like crap. I done less than 3 weeks of dbol. I started the adrol 10 days ago so was on both for abit. I am trying DES out so kept my adrol at 50mg but had planned to up to 100mg for 2 weeks (didn't want to start together as I wanted to gauge the difference when starting DES). Haven't felt anything from the DES so started 100mg today. I was gonna come off but I need to give it more than 10 days. The results are great but I feel like crap. I have synthergine on the way. I feel sick most of the day... not bad but I rather jus use tbol or avar (or no orals) as they are both great. Oh and yes I get bad back pumps from walking down the street so stiff leg deadlifts are off the routine for now :)

Sorry to go off topic. Just adding Godzilla's inj dbol is amazing. If you have any lagging bodyparts I rec site injs with that. Anyway back to the thread...
 
GREAT DANTE.. IT IS TRUE.. the older ya get the waist will expand.. look at the masters scene .. most of the guys have wider waists if they have been in the game long enough.. what you are are also seeing is guys competing for much longer than they did years ago.. therefore much more noticeable as the years go on..

if you look at the heavy masters scene in europe, you see guys in great conditioning but with wider waists.. usually in the over 50 group.. and they dont carry near the mass as jay does.. that is why i have always stood behind my view that heavier and heavier squatting and rows ect will eventually expand the waist (ie obliques ect) over time.. but as we know, there is a way around that and still add mass..;)

I completely agree! I have allways had the same waist for all my lifting years but 1,5 years ago it suddenly just expanded with the same training and eating I had done for years. I was then 41 years old and have allways done squats and deads (never used insulin) It's there to stay now I guess. It would be a shame to stop doing squats and deads as I love doing them but if they only make my physique worse I don't know...!?:(
 
I like the way buselmo thinks

I came to the same conclusion myself, I found that while I was consuming 5-6 meals a day(and upping my dosages) I was gaining size and strenght but not the way I wanted to. I wasn't a fatty but I also was not lean.
After trying different approaches I found out what gave me the best results, low dosages and 2-3 meals a day. Sometimes a small meal in the morning then a larger meal later in the day. And these meals would sometime consist of mcdonalds and chik fil a :D
I now feel that I look the best I have ever looked and felt.
What it all comes down to is listening to your body and trying different approaches with all aspects of BBing and finding what works for you, its your physique and its unique to you.You don't always have to stick with what everyone elses says works and gives the best results.

With that said the only thing that I have noticed about my waist is the higher abdominals. Have grew more then I would have liked and that is with limited ab work outs if any. I usually leave my abdominals alone . . . .
 
Well the waists got bigger, you can't deny that. I'm not convinced it's simply because of age or because of carrying the muscle mass for all those years though. I don't see non-bodybuilders waists get bigger with age unless they got fatter. (which does usually happen lol)

I personally think it has more to do with more insulin as they advance in their careers, coupled with possibly heavier lifting. (though I'm leaning far more to the more insulin or more drugs in general side) But who knows really, it's speculation.

I do appreciate you looking up the pictures Dante.

my dad isn't a bodybuilder... just jogs and had been jogging for the past 30 years 5 days a week... his waist is the smallest it's been right now at the age of 62.

all the examples i've seen here have people who were small and aesthetic, and are now much bigger and much less aesthetic with bigger waists.

I don't know why, but what sticks in my mind is melvin anthony.... he always looked the same, very aesthetic, full, fantastic physique... and there was this year... i don't know which year it was... 2008 or 2009 or something where he said he's working with someone to get bigger for next year or whatever... then he showed up with a bigger waist and a bigger ass... and i was like "WTF happened?!"... don't know if it really was bigger or it was because he was wearing light yellow "trunks", which especially on a black guy would make him look wider.

but seriously, thanks dante for taking the time to pull out these pics.... great to see that people could actually get bigger even when they're much older
 
No I agree. I think I needed that puffy look though. I had lost some weight due to not eating. Then I came off everything which didn't help and I lost abit more. I have put on 20 pounds in 3 weeks. People say your either a love or hate with adrol. But I am both and I don't mean I love the gains but hate the sides. Each brand I have used as been completely different.

Although I am getting fed up of feeling like crap. I done less than 3 weeks of dbol. I started the adrol 10 days ago so was on both for abit. I am trying DES out so kept my adrol at 50mg but had planned to up to 100mg for 2 weeks (didn't want to start together as I wanted to gauge the difference when starting DES). Haven't felt anything from the DES so started 100mg today. I was gonna come off but I need to give it more than 10 days. The results are great but I feel like crap. I have synthergine on the way. I feel sick most of the day... not bad but I rather jus use tbol or avar (or no orals) as they are both great. Oh and yes I get bad back pumps from walking down the street so stiff leg deadlifts are off the routine for now :)

Sorry to go off topic. Just adding Godzilla's inj dbol is amazing. If you have any lagging bodyparts I rec site injs with that. Anyway back to the thread...

20lbs in 3 weeks is no joke. That stuff hurts. Hard to walk, joints hurt, etc. injectable dbol is appealing because it bypasses the liver and doesn't curb appetite.
 
Well the waists got bigger, you can't deny that. I'm not convinced it's simply because of age or because of carrying the muscle mass for all those years though. I don't see non-bodybuilders waists get bigger with age unless they got fatter. (which does usually happen lol)

I personally think it has more to do with more insulin as they advance in their careers, coupled with possibly heavier lifting. (though I'm leaning far more to the more insulin or more drugs in general side) But who knows really, it's speculation.

I do appreciate you looking up the pictures Dante.

I, too, agree with this. I also think hgh plays a part in the waist being bigger in today's body builder. you guys are comparing photos of 20 years ago vs today and they didnt go hog wild on insulin and hgh 20 years ago like they do today, so i dont think its a fair comparison.
 
I, too, agree with this. I also think hgh plays a part in the waist being bigger in today's body builder. you guys are comparing photos of 20 years ago vs today and they didnt go hog wild on insulin and hgh 20 years ago like they do today, so i dont think its a fair comparison.

IM not saying drugs have nothing to do with it....not at all....IM just posing the scenario to everyone.

Bodybuilding vs the guy who wants to look great on the beach.
Those are two very very different scenarios.
If you are told continually you are not big enough to get higher placings in bodybuilding contests....what is your choice if winning bodybuilding contests is the goal? You have to get bigger....to do that dramatically takes food, drugs, and lifting heavier....and with aging and time also your waist is going to get larger.

King Kamali comes to mind of someone who had a normal size waist as a NPC heavyweight at 225ish and then he had to get bigger to compete in the pro's and went up to 256 pounds. Do I agree with the way he did it? No not personally but the bottom line is he would have gotten absolutely overrun in the pro ranks at 5'10"ish 225 so he ABSOLUTELY had to get bigger....and it really effected his waistline.

So (in my opinion and this is only IMO) you have to separate what you are doing here as goals.

Want to look great on the beach at 5'10 215.... then up the sauce (use alot of tren) and eat clean and sparingly.

But if you are 5'10 and think you are going to dominate bodybuilding contests (and all that entails and what the judges want)....215 on alot of tren aint going to get it done in the least and you are going to have to take a road to getting dramatically bigger to win.....and that waistline isnt going to be the exact same 35-40 pounds onstage later
 

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but seriously, thanks dante for taking the time to pull out these pics.... great to see that people could actually get bigger even when they're much older

There's one big difference in drug intake in guys like Benfatto, Labrada and Gaspari today vs. when they competed at the top: lots of growth hormone! The look is a lot different and it's not muscle maturity.:D

Labrada and Benfatto look great. Gaspari less so with his pec implants.
 
IM not saying drugs have nothing to do with it....not at all....IM just posing the scenario to everyone.

Bodybuilding vs the guy who wants to look great on the beach.
Those are two very very different scenarios.
If you are told continually you are not big enough to get higher placings in bodybuilding contests....what is your choice if winning bodybuilding contests is the goal? You have to get bigger....to do that dramatically takes food, drugs, and lifting heavier....and with aging and time also your waist is going to get larger.

King Kamali comes to mind of someone who had a normal size waist as a NPC heavyweight at 225ish and then he had to get bigger to compete in the pro's and went up to 256 pounds. Do I agree with the way he did it? No not personally but the bottom line is he would have gotten absolutely overrun in the pro ranks at 5'10"ish 225 so he ABSOLUTELY had to get bigger....and it really effected his waistline.

So (in my opinion and this is only IMO) you have to separate what you are doing here as goals.

Want to look great on the beach at 5'10 215
.... then up the sauce (use alot of tren) and eat clean and sparingly.

But if you are 5'10 and think you are going to dominate bodybuilding contests (and all that entails and what the judges want)....215 on alot of tren aint going to get it done in the least and you are going to have to take a road to getting dramatically bigger to win.....and that waistline isnt going to be the exact same 35-40 pounds onstage later

you just made my day. those are my stats. going to the beach now after reading this post
 
IM not saying drugs have nothing to do with it....not at all....IM just posing the scenario to everyone.

Bodybuilding vs the guy who wants to look great on the beach.
Those are two very very different scenarios.
If you are told continually you are not big enough to get higher placings in bodybuilding contests....what is your choice if winning bodybuilding contests is the goal? You have to get bigger....to do that dramatically takes food, drugs, and lifting heavier....and with aging and time also your waist is going to get larger.

King Kamali comes to mind of someone who had a normal size waist as a NPC heavyweight at 225ish and then he had to get bigger to compete in the pro's and went up to 256 pounds. Do I agree with the way he did it? No not personally but the bottom line is he would have gotten absolutely overrun in the pro ranks at 5'10"ish 225 so he ABSOLUTELY had to get bigger....and it really effected his waistline.

So (in my opinion and this is only IMO) you have to separate what you are doing here as goals.

Want to look great on the beach at 5'10 215.... then up the sauce (use alot of tren) and eat clean and sparingly.

But if you are 5'10 and think you are going to dominate bodybuilding contests (and all that entails and what the judges want)....215 on alot of tren aint going to get it done in the least and you are going to have to take a road to getting dramatically bigger to win.....and that waistline isnt going to be the exact same 35-40 pounds onstage later

you're right in the sense that it depends on goals... if you have high potential and judges are telling you to get bigger to win shows, I see that as motivation and a chance to get your name out there.

i'm just talking about personal preference. being considered really big to the public doesn't take much. and in current bodybuilding standards, i'm considered on the small side, but i've been told by more than enough people that i'm "too big" and "people don't wanna look like you"...

to be a "freak"... yes, you have to push it with everything if you don't have that one of a kind fullness and muscle insertion points... but it comes with a heavy price. to be big and have almost everyone in the room look at you and stare, it doesn't take that much sacrifice.... unless your genetics are in the toilet like one of my friends :p

I just hate what the judges have turned this sport into. I swear most people (and i've showed the pics of clothed bodybuilders to many people and they all say the same thing) think that they are as fat as hell under the shirt cuz they look obese.
i showed this video to a lot of bodybuilders, and when this guy is explaining in the first couple of seconds I asked them what they think of his size, and they all said he looks huge and thick... expected a big dude, until he raised his arms and put his hands over his head.

4 min Tabata Workout - YouTube

this is the state of bodybuilding today.... wearing t-shirts, they look like your everyday 350 lb obese american.
 
judges have not done it.. the fans have.. i have said this numerous times... mass puts ass in the seats.. those that pay for tickets and but the supplements plus purchase the magazines are after the freaks.. who are the most popular guys today? branch, jay, kai, heath, wolf ecte ct.. all the mass monsters.. i like the freaks.. when i go to a show i want to see branch stomp out on stage.. i dont want to see haidar pose to "wind beneath my wings".. lord that is going to put people to sleep..

now that said, some do not want to look like that.. BUT.. when they attend a show they want to see that.. ill give another example.. i took many years ago a guy to the arnold classic.. he was not much into bodybuilding but did lift.. when we got there their was a discussion amongst some guys at the hotel we were sitting next too.. these guys like the "pleasing" physique.. the "nice lines" and how the body "flows"... when they left this friend of mine said " ya know.. i dont get a bunch of guys standing around talking about how they prefer another guy to have a "pretty" physique .. kinda odd.. i want to see the freaks.. i want to see a cartoon.. i want to see something i cant achieve... thats what i am paying for.." he is right.. that is what puts asses in the seats.. many may not want to look like that but they damn sure want to see it.. trust me the ifbb is all about money.. if the freaks did not bring it in they would change it..
 
It's always about the money. I wonder why we don't see more of The Ultimate Bratwurst, Marküs Rühl? Perhaps he is deemed too ugly to perform :(
 
judges have not done it.. the fans have.. i have said this numerous times... mass puts ass in the seats.. those that pay for tickets and but the supplements plus purchase the magazines are after the freaks.. who are the most popular guys today? branch, jay, kai, heath, wolf ecte ct.. all the mass monsters.. i like the freaks.. when i go to a show i want to see branch stomp out on stage.. i dont want to see haidar pose to "wind beneath my wings".. lord that is going to put people to sleep..

now that said, some do not want to look like that.. BUT.. when they attend a show they want to see that.. ill give another example.. i took many years ago a guy to the arnold classic.. he was not much into bodybuilding but did lift.. when we got there their was a discussion amongst some guys at the hotel we were sitting next too.. these guys like the "pleasing" physique.. the "nice lines" and how the body "flows"... when they left this friend of mine said " ya know.. i dont get a bunch of guys standing around talking about how they prefer another guy to have a "pretty" physique .. kinda odd.. i want to see the freaks.. i want to see a cartoon.. i want to see something i cant achieve... thats what i am paying for.." he is right.. that is what puts asses in the seats.. many may not want to look like that but they damn sure want to see it.. trust me the ifbb is all about money.. if the freaks did not bring it in they would change it..

Does the audience at shows really bring in any significant money? Doesn't most of the money come from competitor fees and sponsors?

As an aside, not only do competitors not get paid in most cases, especially in amateurs, but compete at an extreme cost. Add to that a competitor fee, which I know many, at least guys I know, feel is an outright insult after all the sacrifice, financial and otherwise. :D
 
no.. but they support the sponsors who sponsor these shows.. if it was not for the "freak" factor no one would be in the audience.. and the sponsors know that..
 
judges have not done it.. the fans have.. i have said this numerous times... mass puts ass in the seats.. those that pay for tickets and but the supplements plus purchase the magazines are after the freaks.. who are the most popular guys today? branch, jay, kai, heath, wolf ecte ct.. all the mass monsters.. i like the freaks.. when i go to a show i want to see branch stomp out on stage.. i dont want to see haidar pose to "wind beneath my wings".. lord that is going to put people to sleep..

now that said, some do not want to look like that.. BUT.. when they attend a show they want to see that.. ill give another example.. i took many years ago a guy to the arnold classic.. he was not much into bodybuilding but did lift.. when we got there their was a discussion amongst some guys at the hotel we were sitting next too.. these guys like the "pleasing" physique.. the "nice lines" and how the body "flows"... when they left this friend of mine said " ya know.. i dont get a bunch of guys standing around talking about how they prefer another guy to have a "pretty" physique .. kinda odd.. i want to see the freaks.. i want to see a cartoon.. i want to see something i cant achieve... thats what i am paying for.." he is right.. that is what puts asses in the seats.. many may not want to look like that but they damn sure want to see it.. trust me the ifbb is all about money.. if the freaks did not bring it in they would change it..

Good post.
I have never been to a show, so I never thought of it this way. While I prefer a classic 'prettier' physique for myself, I have no desire to see those type of men posing. However, I would find it interesting to see a human the size of Kai or Jay. I have never seen a modern pro in real life.
 
Buselmo (and those who agree):

Appreciate your honesty and input here. Can you expand more? You mentioned in some other posts that a gram may put on 10 lbs, up to 2g may put up 5, and up to 3g may put on 3... I know these numbers are just examples, but I have some questions... If you cant get to them all I totally understand... I'm just pouring out my brain onto this board...

1 - Do you believe that AAS dose increase is not a "plateau breaker" but that once you reach the weight that x dose can get you, you have to increase dose, and it will only get you x amount more, rather than "jump start" gains and break a plateau?

2 - Are you basically saying that if you want to gain 10lbs and keep it, you have to up the dose and STAY at that dose? Otherwise it just vanishes and theres nothing you can do? And then to gain even less weight, you have to increase the dose a great amount more, and calories play a very minimal role in all of this?

3 - I've also noticed that my weight consistently falls at 2300 calories and 250mg test, for example. I need about 2700 to maintain weight (at this dose). So you would say, bump the dose to 500 to get to x weight, then 750 to reach y weight, whatever I'm comfortable with being on until i hit my goal or am on too much gear... and stay at THAT dose as long as I can, and then lower it only to lose it all?

4 - I've seen probably thousands of posts about going up in dose, gaining the weight, and dropping down to a "cruise" or lower dose, and maintaining the weight. Are you saying this is flawed... and the weight disappears after cruising, only to increase the dose to wind up exactly where you were the last time the dose was at that amount?

5 - to sum it up, dose and weight are a sliding scale without regard for food, for most people? so increase dose, increase weight. try to drop dose and maintain weight, and you'll just lose that weight and be back where you started. basically cruise at a dose that gets you a weight you want, or you'll shrink up?

6 - do you think insulin/GH play a role in your ability to eat very low calories and still grow with a bigger dose of AAS? and by "bigger dose" do you mean AAS, AAS+GH, AAS/GH/Slin? MANY of the less frequent posters do not use GH OR SLIN, both of which I understand allow better utilization of fewer meals/calories.

I like the way buselmo thinks

I came to the same conclusion myself, I found that while I was consuming 5-6 meals a day(and upping my dosages) I was gaining size and strenght but not the way I wanted to. I wasn't a fatty but I also was not lean.
After trying different approaches I found out what gave me the best results, low dosages and 2-3 meals a day. Sometimes a small meal in the morning then a larger meal later in the day. And these meals would sometime consist of mcdonalds and chik fil a :D
I now feel that I look the best I have ever looked and felt.
What it all comes down to is listening to your body and trying different approaches with all aspects of BBing and finding what works for you, its your physique and its unique to you.You don't always have to stick with what everyone elses says works and gives the best results.

With that said the only thing that I have noticed about my waist is the higher abdominals. Have grew more then I would have liked and that is with limited ab work outs if any. I usually leave my abdominals alone . . . .

Do you feel the same way as buselmo about increasing dose to increase size? It sounds like you've steadily grown by just being on a lower dose for a longer time, and not worrying about being higher on calories. More time on gear = more growth... have you increased dose to yield increased gains? Do you feel like the weight yield of a certain amount more testosterone was pretty flat and straightforward, or has it been a "plateau breaker" for you?
 
Buselmo (and those who agree):

Appreciate your honesty and input here. Can you expand more? You mentioned in some other posts that a gram may put on 10 lbs, up to 2g may put up 5, and up to 3g may put on 3... I know these numbers are just examples, but I have some questions... If you cant get to them all I totally understand... I'm just pouring out my brain onto this board...

1 - Do you believe that AAS dose increase is not a "plateau breaker" but that once you reach the weight that x dose can get you, you have to increase dose, and it will only get you x amount more, rather than "jump start" gains and break a plateau?

2 - Are you basically saying that if you want to gain 10lbs and keep it, you have to up the dose and STAY at that dose? Otherwise it just vanishes and theres nothing you can do? And then to gain even less weight, you have to increase the dose a great amount more, and calories play a very minimal role in all of this?

3 - I've also noticed that my weight consistently falls at 2300 calories and 250mg test, for example. I need about 2700 to maintain weight (at this dose). So you would say, bump the dose to 500 to get to x weight, then 750 to reach y weight, whatever I'm comfortable with being on until i hit my goal or am on too much gear... and stay at THAT dose as long as I can, and then lower it only to lose it all?

4 - I've seen probably thousands of posts about going up in dose, gaining the weight, and dropping down to a "cruise" or lower dose, and maintaining the weight. Are you saying this is flawed... and the weight disappears after cruising, only to increase the dose to wind up exactly where you were the last time the dose was at that amount?

5 - to sum it up, dose and weight are a sliding scale without regard for food, for most people? so increase dose, increase weight. try to drop dose and maintain weight, and you'll just lose that weight and be back where you started. basically cruise at a dose that gets you a weight you want, or you'll shrink up?

6 - do you think insulin/GH play a role in your ability to eat very low calories and still grow with a bigger dose of AAS? and by "bigger dose" do you mean AAS, AAS+GH, AAS/GH/Slin? MANY of the less frequent posters do not use GH OR SLIN, both of which I understand allow better utilization of fewer meals/calories.

1- i would say that 90% of people who have been in this game for a while know that a plateau means you'll have to increase the dose cuz the food or training will just make you feel better about yourself and won't really change shit. for noobs, yeah, if you train better or eat better, that'll help cuz you might be doing something stupid. but if you know your body, and you hit a plateau... yeah, that means you can't get out of it unless you increase the dose... eating more food if you're at a good amount will just put more shit in your intestines and make you weigh more... if that makes you happy.

2- pretty much :)

3- first.. the weight you lose when you decrease 400 calories and are on gear, you probably lost water and shit... when i usually go back on my diet, i'm down 10 lbs the first week then i don't lose weight, but during that week, i shit 15-20 times (excuse my french)... and when you do that eating 1500-2000 cals, you know you're "emptying out" your tank. for the second part... no, you won't lose it all if you go down in dose, you'll probably stay at the same weight with a little higher (2-4%) bf and have a different look. you go down in dose, and you'll look a little worse, but still, you can't look the same without the same dose.

4- yeah, pretty much... you cruise and it'll take longer to lose muscle... if you blast at the same dose you plateaued at last time, yeah, guess what, you'll plateau again at the same point. don't believe me and believe all the "vague" posts about not using much and getting huge? look at all the member who actually got bigger, pm them and see what kind of dose they used before they gained 10 lbs, and the dose after... even the diet gurus here had to increase the dose.

5- you are still missing the point of the cruise... it's not to maintain weight... for those who think cruising for 2 months and only losing 3-5 lbs means their cruise dose is enough to maintain, i'd encourage them to stay on their cruise dose for 6 months and they'd change their mind. it delays the process, that's it. i'm off the sauce now... it's been almost 4 weeks now and i was on fast acting stuff... i haven't lost much weight (2-3 lbs only) and gained some fat... but keep in mind i haven't worked out and i eat 3000-4000 cals of junk daily... gimme another month at this stage and i'll look like a skinny/fat blob, cuz that shit don't last... same as cruise dose, instead of 4 weeks, i'd let you at this for 10 weeks, for example, then shit goes down hill.

6-bigger dose means AAS only... GH yes, i like, and it helps even more (way too expensive though)... insulin, i don't like that much... i used to like it when i didn't mind having a 34.5 inch waist while being lean, but these days, i hate it... with GH, you'll be leaner without changing your weight, and most of the time go up in weight if you start out lean on low cals. slin, no, i wouldn't advise with low cals... you need a lot of slin for good results.

all in all.... you want to look big, full, lean, and stay the same year round... not healthy and not cheap... you gotta stay on the same dose year round. if you think differently, please someone post pics in the same lighting every 2 or 3 months while blasting and cruising and lets see if you look the same.
 
Yes its true that more drugs= more size. I am agree with you but we should not take so much drugs it effects our health we should take whey proteine if we are doing bodybuilding.

Thats fantastic.....
 
1- i would say that 90% of people who have been in this game for a while know that a plateau means you'll have to increase the dose cuz the food or training will just make you feel better about yourself and won't really change shit. for noobs, yeah, if you train better or eat better, that'll help cuz you might be doing something stupid. but if you know your body, and you hit a plateau... yeah, that means you can't get out of it unless you increase the dose... eating more food if you're at a good amount will just put more shit in your intestines and make you weigh more... if that makes you happy.

I agree with this point whole heartedly
 
Thank you for your very thorough response buselmo. Lots of interesting info coming out.
 

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