"most pros were stronger as amatures (sic)"

btech · Aug 11, 2010

This is a direct quote taken from a post from the insulin thread.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/832803-post124.html

If I accidentally took that quote out of context, pardon me. My question is the title itself, "most pros were stronger as amatures (sic)".

.....anyone know the how's and why's behind this?

Did a bb'er turn pro, and all of a sudden his training become all about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy i.e. "the pump" and drugs, with slag iron being the "base" he is no longer focusing on? Man, I have no clue what I am talking about here....

Iabadman · Aug 11, 2010

Since you used my quote I'll answer.........simple........have you watched many pros train as I have ? I'd other than a hand full Ronnie , Dave henery , and a few others .....I be willing to bet most guys pushed more wt on the basic lifts before they were pros .......once most guys turn pro .....it is about keeping your face out there ....being kind of lean .....and not getting hurt ......the less than 10% that say fuck it and push the big wts get much bigger .......the other 90% use what feels good and it enough to hold mass .....they gain size with hormone increases or additions.........since you used my good friend Dante term slag iron ........why not ask him if anything I wrote was bs even if he doesn't like how I put it ..........You can argue it with me ....try and call me out with this thread .......but I know what I 've seen.....

btech · Aug 11, 2010

Iabadman said:
Since you used my quote I'll answer.........simple........have you watched many pros train as I have ? I'd other than a hand full Ronnie , Dave henery , and a few others .....I be willing to bet most guys pushed more wt on the basic lifts before they were pros .......once most guys turn pro .....it is about keeping your face out there ....being kind of lean .....and not getting hurt ......the less than 10% that say fuck it and push the big wts get much bigger .......the other 90% use what feels good and it enough to hold mass .....they gain size with hormone increases or additions.........since you used my good friend Dante term slag iron ........why not ask him if anything I wrote was bs even if he doesn't like how I put it ..........You can argue it with me ....try and call me out with this thread .......but I know what I 've seen.....

I meant no due disrespect to you, I simply saw that one sentence you wrote and it sparked an interest where I hoped you'd elaborate more on it. I've seen in some of those old posts Dante wrote where he mentioned how the people coming up through the ranks gain a ton of size through using progressively bigger weights. Then they become pros, training weights stay the same, and they stop making such serious gains. Was curious if you have more information on that. You answered my question, thanks.

blacksterbmw · Aug 11, 2010

Very good read alfresco, interesting - you now have me thinking as well.

superbeast22 · Aug 11, 2010

My friend told me he was stronger when he was natural, once he started to juice he got big but his lifts went down. I think its bs... but Idk.. Also the OP was NOT calling anyone out lol

LATS · Aug 11, 2010

I USED TO BE MUCH STRONGER.. and smaller lol.. my lifts did not keep up with my muscle gains once i discovered anabolics.. this is why i used the slin analogy.. when a guy turns pro (there are exceptions such as dave henry mentioned above and others) many times we see a huge increase in bodyweight.. but not a huge increase in the lifts.. when i was 235 i could rep the hell out of medium grip chins.. slow and controlled i could do 30 as my first set.. this i can back up with others here who have witnessed it.. now at 270 i can get about 12 full reps.. and that is on a good day lol.. and many more of my lifts have been stagnant for a long time.. oh well

Mega Squat · Aug 11, 2010

btech said:
This is a direct quote taken from a post from the insulin thread.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/832803-post124.html

If I accidentally took that quote out of context, pardon me. My question is the title itself, "most pros were stronger as amatures (sic)".

.....anyone know the how's and why's behind this?

Did a bb'er turn pro, and all of a sudden his training become all about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy i.e. "the pump" and drugs, with slag iron being the "base" he is no longer focusing on? Man, I have no clue what I am talking about here....

I honestly think some pros just get lazy and rely on "supplements" to maintain their size and get bigger at a certain point. While other pros continually bust their ass and become great(Dorian and Ronnie come to mind).

BUT lets not forget injuries... a lot of these guys have been training 15-20 years, so they surely have some issues and it may not be smart for them to go as heavy

Iabadman · Aug 11, 2010

Wow ....alfresco...........great post .....sitting at work on a slow night and that post blew me away ......I really hope you start some posts again ......with your favorite routines ......things you have witnessed from the top guys you have got to see ......and some of your conversations with aurthor jones.......you have so much to bring to this board ......i hope you take the lid off so to speak ........you have so much to share about bbing and life experience we are so lucky to have you here ........I hope you open up .....I would love have the board see the man I have got to know glimpses of and look forward to knowing so much better...........Hope you and the wife are great and are enjoying being reunited after her long journey ........much love

animal eater · Aug 11, 2010

BUT lets not forget injuries... a lot of these guys have been training 15-20 years, so they surely have some issues and it may not be smart for them to go as heavy[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely spot on with this quote. Pretty well defy most anyone to train full throttle for 20 years and not aquire a few dings along the way. I know at 41 I am probably stronger than I have ever been but a few dings here and there definately limit me on a few lifts while some lifts are just off limits now.

chemicalwarrior · Aug 11, 2010

Good questions raised and I agree, good post Alfresco. I was at my absolute strongest several weeks after coming off a bulking cycle. Since it was mostly test prop and tren ace it had cleared my system long before. But, I was only training for strength and eating accordingly. As soon as I cut the calories down to even a reasonable level my strength plummeted. I've noticed the same plummet when I'm doing more manual labor and still trying to lift heavy. At lot of things can affect strength- not the least of which being injuries.

I worked my butt off (or on) to be able to squat decent weight with good form. Non-training related knee injuries finally manifested themselves while squatting one day and I've never been the same since. I get plenty of stimulation out of leg presses, but still cannot squat without somewhat re-injuring my right knee.

I'm guessing that a lot pros are "protecting" their investment once they turn pro. Many have already been training 10-15 years and it was a long and hard road turning pro. Why throw it all away to be able to squat or bench more? That's my guess at least.

I know I'm rambling, but I have one more point... I think it's important that people find exercises that work for their body. I've watched both my father and former training partner tear their pecs bench pressing on a flat bench. For some structures it just isn't safe- places too much stress on the shoulder insertion while for other people it spreads the stress across the muscle belly. For me, decline bench is a good substitute. And, a lot of traditional "strength" moves aren't going to be for everyone.

btech · Aug 11, 2010

chemicalwarrior said:
For some structures it just isn't safe- places too much stress on the shoulder insertion while for other people it spreads the stress across the muscle belly. For me, decline bench is a good substitute. And, a lot of traditional "strength" moves aren't going to be for everyone.

The thread on whether deadlifts are necessary for physique development kind of touches on this, lifts and body structure. I'm lucky to be a deadlift guy so to speak (not 100%, but enough to make notable gains on). I recently decided to give up flat bench for life.. to be replaced by weighted dips.

Donzi · Aug 11, 2010

btech said:
The thread on whether deadlifts are necessary for physique development kind of touches on this, lifts and body structure. I'm lucky to be a deadlift guy so to speak (not 100%, but enough to make notable gains on). I recently decided to give up flat bench for life.. to be replaced by weighted dips.

"I recently decided to give up flat bench for life.. to be replaced by weighted dips"
thats like saying you gave up squats for leg extensions. it is your chest muscle but not nearly the equivalent of it. Different ROM, Secondary muscles, Angels etc.. Dosent really make sense to me.

cooper250 · Aug 11, 2010

i see this statement as being very accuate as i know jay claims to just want to feel the weight ect.ppl. like jay cutler want to stay up there for awhile.alot pros come and go as they get inj so much from the heay iron and others back off so they can get some yrs out of it all.I would think once ur pushing the kinda numbers ronnie coleman dose ect ur gonna have inj. ect.some r recless with form maybe if they tightend up the reps and slowed down rep speed they could hit it hard longer,but dont know just speaculateing.

btech · Aug 11, 2010

Donzi said:
"I recently decided to give up flat bench for life.. to be replaced by weighted dips"
thats like saying you gave up squats for leg extensions. it is your chest muscle but not nearly the equivalent of it. Different ROM, Secondary muscles, Angels etc.. Dosent really make sense to me.

Squat vs leg extension = compound vs isolation.

Bench vs Dips = compound vs compound... apples and oranges.

Besides, I'm currently not training for physique development as a priority.

chemicalwarrior · Aug 11, 2010

Donzi said:
"I recently decided to give up flat bench for life.. to be replaced by weighted dips"
thats like saying you gave up squats for leg extensions. it is your chest muscle but not nearly the equivalent of it. Different ROM, Secondary muscles, Angels etc.. Dosent really make sense to me.

No, it isn't. Some people get a lot more out of dips for chest than flat bench. Think about it, dips are like "upper-body squats", bench is more of an isolation movement (leg extentions) than dips. Flat bench "locks" you into a fixed position and says, "hope this angle works for you." Dips allow for adjustments to different angles, positions etc (providing you have access to the right equipment).

crams60 · Aug 11, 2010

Im not sure about this one you seen RHINO

btech · Aug 11, 2010

crams60 said:
Im not sure about this one you seen RHINO

"you seen RHINO" win a pro contest or even compete in the Olympia? Dude's big but is not a top tier pro.

By the way, did you watch the videos where Flex was training him for his most recent BB comp? What was it that RHINO was saying about training for BB?

Tom · Aug 11, 2010

Donzi said:
"I recently decided to give up flat bench for life.. to be replaced by weighted dips"
thats like saying you gave up squats for leg extensions. it is your chest muscle but not nearly the equivalent of it. Different ROM, Secondary muscles, Angels etc.. Dosent really make sense to me.

i'd do weighted dips over flat bench anyday. try doing them with elbows flared out and chin down.