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Muscle mass and test dose

pharma1

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Im curious if anyone here has gotten competitively large for open class, off of lower dose test just running other compounds higher?

It seems like most of the "bigger guys" (large enough to win a local NPC show ) are also proponents of using larger doses of test to really grow.

Personally the only national level competitive open class bodybuilder I know personally, is a high test guy for sure.

But im curious. How many guys with respectable levels of muscle mass got there never really running high test?
 

Apestrong

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I think a lot of guys from the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s would fall into this category.

I don’t think so in modern bodybuilding
 

pesty4077

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Im curious if anyone here has gotten competitively large for open class, off of lower dose test just running other compounds higher?

It seems like most of the "bigger guys" (large enough to win a local NPC show ) are also proponents of using larger doses of test to really grow.

Personally the only national level competitive open class bodybuilder I know personally, is a high test guy for sure.

But im curious. How many guys with respectable levels of muscle mass got there never really running high test?


My guy I trained was not taking in more then 500 to 600 mg and he won the California Championship. He was a heavyweight. Now, I am not saying that was total gear he was using, but it was a lot less then other competitors.
 

pesty4077

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I think a lot of guys from the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s would fall into this category.

I don’t think so in modern bodybuilding

Local shows yes, pro status different ball game. Some guys have ungodly genetics and respond well to gear.
 

pharma1

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Ya I have been wanting to really up the test and see how much mass I add but I convert to estrogen at a fairly high rate and I am sensitive as well. Also not a fan of blasting AI's just to try to run high test. Reasonable usage is fine but to run a gram or more of Test I would probably be smashing 1mg of Adex ED or EOD. or 25mg Aro ed/eod. It wouldnt feel good thats for sure and it feels like it would become counter productive.

I am not quite big enough to do any damage in open but im a respectably sized classic physique amateur. I like a nice 500mg test base with higher NPP and Mast. I think my best results have come from 500 Test / 500 NPP / 1-1.5g of mast during my last prep. But I am 5'9 205lbs or so offseason around 10-11% bf, so not a large bodybuilder by any stretch.

Trying to really nail this last chunk of time before we start prepping in March/April for an early fall show next year.
 

luki7788

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Ya I have been wanting to really up the test and see how much mass I add but I convert to estrogen at a fairly high rate and I am sensitive as well. Also not a fan of blasting AI's just to try to run high test. Reasonable usage is fine but to run a gram or more of Test I would probably be smashing 1mg of Adex ED or EOD. or 25mg Aro ed/eod. It wouldnt feel good thats for sure and it feels like it would become counter productive.

I am not quite big enough to do any damage in open but im a respectably sized classic physique amateur. I like a nice 500mg test base with higher NPP and Mast. I think my best results have come from 500 Test / 500 NPP / 1-1.5g of mast during my last prep. But I am 5'9 205lbs or so offseason around 10-11% bf, so not a large bodybuilder by any stretch.

Trying to really nail this last chunk of time before we start prepping in March/April for an early fall show next year.
I don't know where the idea came from that 1mg of adex or 25mg of aromasin a day is a lot. Most bodybuilders who use the 1.2g + dose use this dose of IA all year round and they have no problems, I don't know why people on the forums are so scared of IA it's just funny
 

silverback1984

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I don't know where the idea came from that 1mg of adex or 25mg of aromasin a day is a lot. Most bodybuilders who use the 1.2g + dose use this dose of IA all year round and they have no problems, I don't know why people on the forums are so scared of IA it's just funny
I dont think people are scared of the ai itself but clearly it has different effects on different people. I want to run an ai with my test but everytime I touch even one tablet my joints get sore and after a few tablets I can barely lift the bar itself even with 1/4 tablet eod. Dr.thomas o conor has stated hes had patients who after taking an ai , have all the symptoms of low estrogen especially sore joints but yet there estrogen is still in range after checking bloods. So it is a side effect for some people. I've also personally asked former bodybuilder vic Richard's and hes told me at the time he was bodybuilding he needed an ai to use testosterone but there was none available that suited his body at the time so he didnt use test.
 

beast405

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Im curious if anyone here has gotten competitively large for open class, off of lower dose test just running other compounds higher?

It seems like most of the "bigger guys" (large enough to win a local NPC show ) are also proponents of using larger doses of test to really grow.

Personally the only national level competitive open class bodybuilder I know personally, is a high test guy for sure.

But im curious. How many guys with respectable levels of muscle mass got there never really running high test?
I dont think people are scared of the ai itself but clearly it has different effects on different people. I want to run an ai with my test but everytime I touch even one tablet my joints get sore and after a few tablets I can barely lift the bar itself even with 1/4 tablet eod. Dr.thomas o conor has stated hes had patients who after taking an ai , have all the symptoms of low estrogen especially sore joints but yet there estrogen is still in range after checking bloods. So it is a side effect for some people. I've also personally asked former bodybuilder vic Richard's and hes told me at the time he was bodybuilding he needed an ai to use testosterone but there was none available that suited his body at the time so he didnt use test.
Exactly. Anti e’s make me feel horrible. Even at lower doses. I quit taking them years ago. I was going up to 1000mg of test with other compounds on top and felt great, grew great all with using no ais
 

Apestrong

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I dont think people are scared of the ai itself but clearly it has different effects on different people. I want to run an ai with my test but everytime I touch even one tablet my joints get sore and after a few tablets I can barely lift the bar itself even with 1/4 tablet eod. Dr.thomas o conor has stated hes had patients who after taking an ai , have all the symptoms of low estrogen especially sore joints but yet there estrogen is still in range after checking bloods. So it is a side effect for some people. I've also personally asked former bodybuilder vic Richard's and hes told me at the time he was bodybuilding he needed an ai to use testosterone but there was none available that suited his body at the time so he didnt use test.
I get diminishing returns when I try AI’s randomly without blood work telling me I need them. I respond too well to AI’s and just stop growing
 

LK3

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I don't know where the idea came from that 1mg of adex or 25mg of aromasin a day is a lot. Most bodybuilders who use the 1.2g + dose use this dose of IA all year round and they have no problems, I don't know why people on the forums are so scared of IA it's just funny
lol the power of the internet!
seriously, in real life how many people have you actually met the talk or have even tried the yipyappy details of the latest internet drug dosing trends and protocols?
i think most here are too interested in the latest guru to actually take the drugs....
 

Ruhlfreak55

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I don't know where the idea came from that 1mg of adex or 25mg of aromasin a day is a lot. Most bodybuilders who use the 1.2g + dose use this dose of IA all year round and they have no problems, I don't know why people on the forums are so scared of IA it's just funny
I agree, my script for anastrozole has always been written for 1mg per day. Now I usually just take it EoD, but as multiple docs have written it that way it isn't that much. And it doesn't even really fuck with my lipids.
 

Knight9

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I don't know where the idea came from that 1mg of adex or 25mg of aromasin a day is a lot. Most bodybuilders who use the 1.2g + dose use this dose of IA all year round and they have no problems, I don't know why people on the forums are so scared of IA it's just funny
You're kidding, right? AI's can fuck you up if not properly used/overused -physically and mentally. Another part of the problem is many people have thought they needed to use AI's in situations where they were unnecessary. That's not to say they don't have their place but I believe in the 2000s and most of the 2010's AI's were likely highly overused. It's only in the last few years where it has kind of come to light that they shouldn't just automatically be tossed into any trt or cycle recipe. I also think people in the past were more prone to overusing when it was time to apply them.
 

Kaladryn

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I don't know where the idea came from that 1mg of adex or 25mg of aromasin a day is a lot. Most bodybuilders who use the 1.2g + dose use this dose of IA all year round and they have no problems, I don't know why people on the forums are so scared of IA it's just funny
I've never heard anyone say that is a lot for that much test
 

Kaladryn

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You're kidding, right? AI's can fuck you up if not properly used/overused -physically and mentally. Another part of the problem is many people have thought they needed to use AI's in situations where they were unnecessary. That's not to say they don't have their place but I believe in the 2000s and most of the 2010's AI's were likely highly overused. It's only in the last few years where it has kind of come to light that they shouldn't just automatically be tossed into any trt or cycle recipe. I also think people in the past were more prone to overusing when it was time to apply them.
Not doing an AI because you aren't getting any sides is a huge health risk IMO, AIs are overused when people are trying to do TRT or people who are gyno paranoid (extremely common or they have a little gyno and overuse AIs to try and keep it down, another mistake). Estradiol is nasty and should be kept in check, it just has to be done correctly.
 

Kaladryn

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I agree, my script for anastrozole has always been written for 1mg per day. Now I usually just take it EoD, but as multiple docs have written it that way it isn't that much. And it doesn't even really fuck with my lipids.
Adex can cause digestive issues after long term use, for me, it started to cause almost constant 'near' diarrhea after about 10 years, watch out for that, known side effect.
 

Kaladryn

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I get diminishing returns when I try AI’s randomly without blood work telling me I need them. I respond too well to AI’s and just stop growing
AIs (and 5ARIs for that matter) have extreme diminishing returns, it works out to something like 1/4th the dose works at 70% of full dose, half the dose works at 85% of a full dose, etc. For finasteride, 20% of the dose works almost the same as a full dose. These are well known pharmacokinetics that are shown in studies.

The whole "estradiol helps you grow" stuff is broscience though, it helps you hold water that is about it.

Of course, there are side effects of having E2 way too low, but that is hard to achieve on AIs unless the test dose is really low.
 

Kaladryn

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I dont think people are scared of the ai itself but clearly it has different effects on different people. I want to run an ai with my test but everytime I touch even one tablet my joints get sore and after a few tablets I can barely lift the bar itself even with 1/4 tablet eod. Dr.thomas o conor has stated hes had patients who after taking an ai , have all the symptoms of low estrogen especially sore joints but yet there estrogen is still in range after checking bloods. So it is a side effect for some people. I've also personally asked former bodybuilder vic Richard's and hes told me at the time he was bodybuilding he needed an ai to use testosterone but there was none available that suited his body at the time so he didnt use test.
Estradiol and Testosterone compete at the receptor, think of this way, T is basically like nolvadex to E and E is like nolvadex to T, it blocks the receptor even though it doesn't activate it. This means if your test is very high, and E is "normal" you will need way more E to feel normal.
 

Ruhlfreak55

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Adex can cause digestive issues after long term use, for me, it started to cause almost constant 'near' diarrhea after about 10 years, watch out for that, known side effect.
I would say I have that right now, but seems more closely correlated to my salsa habit. What causes it? Digestion is important too.
 

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