My experiment to prove its all about the high dose!

[bigdog123]

I did 6 weeks of 1,300mg test e and 400mg tren per week and ate 5,300 calories per day (90% clean) and my weight got up to 236lb at 5`9.. My body fat was clipped at 10.2% so I was still fairly lean, but more watery than usual.

I then decided I would pull the dose back to only 300mg test e per week and drop the tren. I kept my diet the same, maybe dropped the cals very slightly, but still getting a clean 5,000 in every day and kept my training the same.
After 3.5 weeks of this I am down to 227!

I have lost 9lb and about 10% of my strength yet kept food and training the same. Sleep stayed the same too..

This makes me realise why I was stuck at 225-230 for so long and just needed to up the dose. My concern is the `extra weight` was all water as it has come off very fast.

Next time I will run 10 weeks of 1.5g test and 500 tren and get into the 240`s and hopefully maintain more when I cruise.

Thoughts?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

I did 6 weeks of 1,300mg test e and 400mg tren per week and ate 5,300 calories per day (90% clean) and my weight got up to 236lb at 5`9.. My body fat was clipped at 10.2% so I was still fairly lean, but more watery than usual.

I then decided I would pull the dose back to only 300mg test e per week and drop the tren. I kept my diet the same, maybe dropped the cals very slightly, but still getting a clean 5,000 in every day and kept my training the same.
After 3.5 weeks of this I am down to 227!

I have lost 9lb and about 10% of my strength yet kept food and training the same. Sleep stayed the same too..

This makes me realise why I was stuck at 225-230 for so long and just needed to up the dose. My concern is the `extra weight` was all water as it has come off very fast.

Next time I will run 10 weeks of 1.5g test and 500 tren and get into the 240`s and hopefully maintain more when I cruise.

Thoughts?

I think we all agree that if conditions are same........more actual weight of a certain drug will produce more results...........good and bad. The key is to get as many good gains as possible with the lowest dosage.

 

[dece870717]

I see it as an absolute waste to use so much test with tren. I never use more than 250mg/week of test when using tren. Tren is so strong I can't understand why anybody would need all that test. Using 200mg of test with 600-800mg of tren will blow away 1500mg of test with 500mg tren.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I think we all agree that if conditions are same........more actual weight of a certain drug will produce more results...........good and bad. The key is to get as many good gains as possible with the lowest dosage.

Exactly. Try to get away with as little as possible. If you think you have any future in this sport, whether it's to become pro or just to have a damn fun time for 20+ years... you're ultimately going to reach a glass ceiling after a while.

Take one look at all the young 20 year old bodybuilders at the National level right now. Trey Brewer is a good example. If I'm not mistaken (correct me if wrong), but Kenny Milne. If you gain (x) amount of muscle on (x) amount of gear... what do you think you will be doing in 3 years? 5?

If you're going to run 1500mg test and 500mg tren just to get into the 240's... what are you going to have to run pre-contest? What are you going to do when you want to be 250? You can't (or at least SHOULDN'T) have to raise to bar from 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 grams just to grow. I'd be a million bucks that if you had your nutrition done by one of the good guys we have on this board, you would be in the 240's on less than 600-750mg a week EASILY.

 

[gridlock]

I see it as an absolute waste to use so much test with tren. I never use more than 250mg/week of test when using tren. Tren is so strong I can't understand why anybody would need all that test. Using 200mg of test with 600-800mg of tren will blow away 1500mg of test with 500mg tren.

if you read what he was saying he stated that all other factors being equal, it was necessary for him to make that jump as he had hit a plateu.

as for that little amount of test with the higher tren, for many it will kill their libido. dont be too sure about it blowing away the results of the higher test protocol either.

if you can run that higher protocol for a long enough duration it will make the best environment for your body to grow. that hrt dose you stated wont.

 

[dece870717]

if you read what he was saying he stated that all other factors being equal, it was necessary for him to make that jump as he had hit a plateu.

as for that little amount of test with the higher tren, for many it will kill their libido. dont be too sure about it blowing away the results of the higher test protocol either.

if you can run that higher protocol for a long enough duration it will make the best environment for your body to grow. that hrt dose you stated wont.

Out of the probably 10 people I've had do low test with medium/high tren cycles, I have had zero that had problems with libido. And I guess i must be some kind of freak because at 50mg/EOD of test with 1g of tren I am ridiculously horny!

 

[aeliop]

I did 6 weeks of 1,300mg test e and 400mg tren per week and ate 5,300 calories per day (90% clean) and my weight got up to 236lb at 5`9.. My body fat was clipped at 10.2% so I was still fairly lean, but more watery than usual.

I then decided I would pull the dose back to only 300mg test e per week and drop the tren. I kept my diet the same, maybe dropped the cals very slightly, but still getting a clean 5,000 in every day and kept my training the same.
After 3.5 weeks of this I am down to 227!

I have lost 9lb and about 10% of my strength yet kept food and training the same. Sleep stayed the same too..

This makes me realise why I was stuck at 225-230 for so long and just needed to up the dose. My concern is the `extra weight` was all water as it has come off very fast.

Next time I will run 10 weeks of 1.5g test and 500 tren and get into the 240`s and hopefully maintain more when I cruise.

Thoughts?

What was your starting weight?

 

[king1033]

I think we all agree that if conditions are same........more actual weight of a certain drug will produce more results...........good and bad. The key is to get as many good gains as possible with the lowest dosage.

I agree with phil on this, now lets imagine if it was 6k cals and 100mg less of each drug...would you have yeilded the same results....you will never know. Its all about the physique for quality of life, make sure you get blood taken especially running doses like that, also when you cruise just up the cals dont necessarily up the gear

 

[Jeremy24]

I agree with Phil. Its known that higher doses will cause more dramatic effects but at what cost. Higher doses normally equals more extreme sides.

 

[Ness]

Some dude I know ramped his way up over a year from 500mgs to 1G of test. He stayed at 1G of test for 8 months...Then he cruised on a TRT dose for 6 months. At that point, instead of blasting back up to 1G, he incrementally raised his mgs up to 600, and is now at this point, stronger and bigger than when he was on 1G awhile back. Keep in mind that he only uses test and always stays on.

So, this made me think about a few things...
1. Does staying at a higher dose for that long allow those gains to "solidify" into permanent growth? In other words, if you allow the body to hold the new gains for a longer period of time will you be able to hold much more of it after the mgs are lowered?
2. Diet is only a tool to support added muscle mass, correct? So when the mgs are increased, so then is the potential to gain new muscle mass. As a result, your caloric needs must increase to support that new mass. If not, you will then lose everything if the new muscle is not supported by more calories, correct?

 

[EYE2EYE]

I did 6 weeks of 1,300mg test e and 400mg tren per week and ate 5,300 calories per day (90% clean) and my weight got up to 236lb at 5`9.. My body fat was clipped at 10.2% so I was still fairly lean, but more watery than usual.

I then decided I would pull the dose back to only 300mg test e per week and drop the tren. I kept my diet the same, maybe dropped the cals very slightly, but still getting a clean 5,000 in every day and kept my training the same.
After 3.5 weeks of this I am down to 227!

I have lost 9lb and about 10% of my strength yet kept food and training the same. Sleep stayed the same too..

This makes me realise why I was stuck at 225-230 for so long and just needed to up the dose. My concern is the `extra weight` was all water as it has come off very fast.

Next time I will run 10 weeks of 1.5g test and 500 tren and get into the 240`s and hopefully maintain more when I cruise.

Thoughts?

What was your BP like during that time? Peace.

 

[betito]

You are talking about 6 weeks... if you only have 6 weeks to make the biggest possible gains it´s normal to pack on the juice... but if you are talking about 20 years (and to be at elite size you will need quite some years no matter what you do) would you still jump on the high gear from day one? that would ruin you health and your receptors... going step by step making sure you get every possible gain from every step would assure yo that when you get to use 1.5 grams of test (to say anumber) you are 280 and not a 220 (if you get to the high doses too soon you will have to use insanely big doses to get to elite size).

 

[Liphted]

Not sure what kind of conclusions you are trying to draw here

Sooo many variables at play here. What was the ester in the tren? Do you really think 1,300 mg of Test E for six weeks even cleared in 3.5 weeks? When you think you were running 300 mg of Test do you think your serum levels were anywhere close to that response from that dose? They most definitely were not. A more accurate statement would have been I've been on 300 mg of Test E for the last ~7 days.

You need to be taking something to combat/offset the water retention that inevitably came about from upping your dose (which I think you recognize... hopefully) if you want to accurately judge how much LBM you are gaining or losing. You bouncing around in weight was not a loss or gain of muscle (for the most part), like you said you are holding and shedding water.

The only thing I would take away from this are two things.
1) You hold water at higher dosages.
2) Muscle fibers are mostly water (~75%). Fibers gain strength by leverage. Water retention has increased leverage, thus upping your potential contractile force, and strength went up. You lost water, leverage decreased, you lost strength.

Nothing novel here...

 

[oldfella]

While your intentions were solid your protocols were not. After 6 weeks of that high a dose your system would still be circulating a much higher amount of androgens and other hormones. It would have been a better experiment if you stopped the high dose, went clean then tried the lower dose with all other aspects the same and see how much you gained. This would be a better indicator of what dose produced the most profound results.

As others have pointed out, 6 weeks on a moderate cycle like the one you called "High Dose" is not enough time to pack on any appreciable mass. As you did find most of what you did gain was water. This is no surprise because the science of building quality solid lean mass takes time as well as all other things into consideration, including doses of aas. I must say this, you are on the right track with your theories though. Just need to refine them a bit.

As Phil said, try to make the best possible gains on the lowest dose, that is the trick. Nice work though.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Some dude I know ramped his way up over a year from 500mgs to 1G of test. He stayed at 1G of test for 8 months...Then he cruised on a TRT dose for 6 months. At that point, instead of blasting back up to 1G, he incrementally raised his mgs up to 600, and is now at this point, stronger and bigger than when he was on 1G awhile back. Keep in mind that he only uses test and always stays on.

So, this made me think about a few things...
1. Does staying at a higher dose for that long allow those gains to "solidify" into permanent growth? In other words, if you allow the body to hold the new gains for a longer period of time will you be able to hold much more of it after the mgs are lowered?
2. Diet is only a tool to support added muscle mass, correct? So when the mgs are increased, so then is the potential to gain new muscle mass. As a result, your caloric needs must increase to support that new mass. If not, you will then lose everything if the new muscle is not supported by more calories, correct?

1- I would say yes, but I has more to do with set point theory and your body being able to maintain a weight for a long time. The longer you keep 250lbs, the more likely you're able to keep it. Take a guy offseason who's trying to get to 275 from 250. He tries and tries and his weight finally peaks at 275, then he immediately starts dieting for contest. Take a second guy who maintains 275 for a solid 4-6 months, then diets down. The second guy is going to be a lot bigger on stage because that muscle will be his body's new "norm".

I had surgery and went clean for months. I also couldn't train for 4-6 weeks of that time. My bodyweight never dipped below 260-265lbs because I had been so heavy for so long.

2- The most gear you're on, more food would definitely be the key. The drugs you're taking increase the metabolic rate of all the food you eat. Your protein synthesis will be much more efficient on more gear than less. If you're running heavy, eat heavy. If you're running lower towards an HRT level or cruising level, you'll have to decrease your food to some degree.

 

[bigdog123]

To answer other questions - my BP went up from 120/80 on the 300mg a week to 134/87 on the higher dose.

My starting weight was 215 or so as I had been eating like a normal person for 6 weeks and dropped some mass.

As I had said, next time out I will run a longer course - I plan to cruise on 250-300mg a week for a good time then run a higher dose for 10 weeks and get into the 240`s and actually build solid tissue rather than mainly water weight.

 

[oldfella]

1- I would say yes, but I has more to do with set point theory and your body being able to maintain a weight for a long time. The longer you keep 250lbs, the more likely you're able to keep it. Take a guy offseason who's trying to get to 275 from 250. He tries and tries and his weight finally peaks at 275, then he immediately starts dieting for contest. Take a second guy who maintains 275 for a solid 4-6 months, then diets down. The second guy is going to be a lot bigger on stage because that muscle will be his body's new "norm".

I had surgery and went clean for months. I also couldn't train for 4-6 weeks of that time. My bodyweight never dipped below 260-265lbs because I had been so heavy for so long.

2- The most gear you're on, more food would definitely be the key. The drugs you're taking increase the metabolic rate of all the food you eat. Your protein synthesis will be much more efficient on more gear than less. If you're running heavy, eat heavy. If you're running lower towards an HRT level or cruising level, you'll have to decrease your food to some degree.

Now we are getting more to the point. This is where the science of time comes into play. If you get to that 275, stay there for a much longer period, then say you want to get to 280, it would be much easier to do it this way than to try and blast your way to 280 only to diet 30 lbs off when you do. As Big Dave points out and I agree with this 100%, the longer you remain at a heavier weight the more of it will stick to you come diet time. Our bodies need time to adapt, so give it that time at a bigger number and you will keep most of it. Good post Dave!!

 

[Shelby]

I have a client that went from 285 to 305 in about a month, his body fat stayed VERY close to the same, and his dose stayed the same (under 1g total per week).

What does that tell you?

 

[Liphted]

I have a client that went from 285 to 305 in about a month, his body fat stayed VERY close to the same, and his dose stayed the same (under 1g total per week).

What does that tell you?

With out a lot more information... not much honestly.

 

[Dave_19]

I did 6 weeks of 1,300mg test e and 400mg tren per week and ate 5,300 calories per day (90% clean) and my weight got up to 236lb at 5`9.. My body fat was clipped at 10.2% so I was still fairly lean, but more watery than usual.

I then decided I would pull the dose back to only 300mg test e per week and drop the tren. I kept my diet the same, maybe dropped the cals very slightly, but still getting a clean 5,000 in every day and kept my training the same.
After 3.5 weeks of this I am down to 227!

I have lost 9lb and about 10% of my strength yet kept food and training the same. Sleep stayed the same too..

This makes me realise why I was stuck at 225-230 for so long and just needed to up the dose. My concern is the `extra weight` was all water as it has come off very fast.

Next time I will run 10 weeks of 1.5g test and 500 tren and get into the 240`s and hopefully maintain more when I cruise.

Thoughts?

I am definitely not a fan of more is better. In fact its the complete opposite of my style, I think extremely low doses, frequent changes, and long duration are key. Almost like a glorified HRT. Especially for the avg user but even for competition mode I still am a fan of this style with slight tweaking near the end.