Non responder - any hope?

[Type-IIx]

Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated! However I must admit that I don't agree with most of them

In the last 10 years, I've watched thousands of videos covering all aspects of bodybuilding. John Meadows, Scott Stevenson, Justin Harris, the Hypertrophy Coach, Greg Doucette, Chris Bumstead, the list goes on. Recently I've been watching Anabolic Bodybuilding by Big Dave a lot, great YouTube channel. I really eat and train in a very similar way to all these guys, and just as hard. I've trained at dozens of gyms in my life and was always in the group training the hardest and the smartest. I'm consistent, even when I go on Holidays first thing I do is finding a local gym to avoid skipping workouts. I take a week off training once or twice a year to let the joints and tendons recover, that's all. I never skip meals, always count macros.
I can't only complain either, I look now much better than before starting TRT and cycling. But it's like my body just doesn't want to grow past a certain point, maybe my natural myostatin levels are abnormally high. Whenever I start eating above maintenance, even on a quite heavy cycle, all these excess calories turn mostly into fat and not muscle. Even if the diet is super clean, basically chicken breast, white fish, lean beef, rice, vegetables and a little bit of fruit and nuts 7 times a day.

Take Ron Harris for example. Even though he tried, he never reached the size of a Pro, because he didn't have it in his genes. And he considers himself rather blessed genetically, on the "above average" side of the scale for sure when it comes to hypertrophy potential. I'm probably on the very bottom of this vast genetic scale, you blessed guys probably can't even imagine, some of you even want to send me to the beginners forum, that's mean to say the least haha

Well I was hoping that maybe it would turn out that I'm a hyper responder to HGH and that it would help me get to a lean 200lb, but it's most likely not the case...

I'll throw my opinion into the ring here.

GH response is determined by the increase to circulating IGF-I and is related primarily to polymorphism of the GHR gene (i.e., d3 homozygous confers great sensitivity, fl homozygous poor sensitivity) as well as factors like hepatic/liver health, body fat % (better to be leaner), etc. The GHR gene is rather separate from physiological determinants of androgen response (e.g., AR gene, where the length of CAG repeats determines sensitive to a great extent).

So yes, rhGH may yield significantly better results for you if you are, for example, d3 homozygous in the GHR gene and otherwise have great GH response.

Of course if you're a relative nonresponder to training stimuli due to other factors you may be out of luck for any dramatically improved training response.

Since most guys here are genetically endowed or blessed (it is ProM after all), you're not likely to find many that appreciate the wide divergence in the factors that influence muscle anabolism and body composition.

 

[Cerberus777]

Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated! However I must admit that I don't agree with most of them

In the last 10 years, I've watched thousands of videos covering all aspects of bodybuilding. John Meadows, Scott Stevenson, Justin Harris, the Hypertrophy Coach, Greg Doucette, Chris Bumstead, the list goes on. Recently I've been watching Anabolic Bodybuilding by Big Dave a lot, great YouTube channel. I really eat and train in a very similar way to all these guys, and just as hard. I've trained at dozens of gyms in my life and was always in the group training the hardest and the smartest. I'm consistent, even when I go on Holidays first thing I do is finding a local gym to avoid skipping workouts. I take a week off training once or twice a year to let the joints and tendons recover, that's all. I never skip meals, always count macros.
I can't only complain either, I look now much better than before starting TRT and cycling. But it's like my body just doesn't want to grow past a certain point, maybe my natural myostatin levels are abnormally high. Whenever I start eating above maintenance, even on a quite heavy cycle, all these excess calories turn mostly into fat and not muscle. Even if the diet is super clean, basically chicken breast, white fish, lean beef, rice, vegetables and a little bit of fruit and nuts 7 times a day.

Take Ron Harris for example. Even though he tried, he never reached the size of a Pro, because he didn't have it in his genes. And he considers himself rather blessed genetically, on the "above average" side of the scale for sure when it comes to hypertrophy potential. I'm probably on the very bottom of this vast genetic scale, you blessed guys probably can't even imagine, some of you even want to send me to the beginners forum, that's mean to say the least haha

Well I was hoping that maybe it would turn out that I'm a hyper responder to HGH and that it would help me get to a lean 200lb, but it's most likely not the case...

I could have simply said I was a poor responder. But early on. Before keto was a fad. I had a guy I was working with notice I put on fat easily. He suggested carbs only around work outs and beef eggs and greens all my other meals. I put on a decent amount of muscle before touching gear. I think the others are right. A diet coach would help you more than HGH.

 

[Fit2Serve]

Can only echo everyone else's sentiments. 100% of the time I've had a client come to me claiming this it's entirely because they don't train worth a shit. Dialing that in solves 70% of it, nutrition is usually the other 30%.

i believe opposite.
70% diet and 30% training
just using the numbers u stated.
get the diet right OP and not for a day or 2 or a week or 2 i mean for MONTHS straight.... years.....

 

[qbkilla]

I could have simply said I was a poor responder. But early on. Before keto was a fad. I had a guy I was working with notice I put on fat easily. He suggested carbs only around work outs and beef eggs and greens all my other meals. I put on a decent amount of muscle before touching gear. I think the others are right. A diet coach would help you more than HGH.

Would you eat this way when gaining?

So above maintenance calories, but only carbs around training? No carbs on off days?

 

[qbkilla]

i believe opposite.
70% diet and 30% training
just using the numbers u stated.
get the diet right OP and not for a day or 2 or a week or 2 i mean for MONTHS straight.... years.....

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

 

[Fit2Serve]

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

ah ok copy that i didnt even look at his diet etc assummed...

 

[Bio]

Sure, no problem !
So now that my cycle is over I'm in maintenance phase , went down to 3400kcal on training days and 2700kcal on rest days.

Breakfast : 2 sandwiches with chicken breast, omelette made of one whole egg and 200ml egg whites with a bit of caramel topping, veggies, fruit, 700kcal

To work I take a salad made of 400g white fish, 100g shrimps, asparagus, mushrooms and green peas, 700kcal total, I split it into 3 small meals.

After work : chicken breast with rice and veggies , 2 meals, 400kcal each.

Last evening meal : Greek yogurt with protein powder, nuts and fruit, 500kcal

That's the rest day, the only difference when it comes to training day is that I eat a lot of rice with whey powder preworkout, and then add whole grain cereal to my last, post workout meal, I work out in the evening.

I don't eat exactly the same everyday, swap chicken breast for lean beef or chicken liver, rotate vegetables etc.
On weekends I sometimes have sushi or ice cream with family but nothing crazy, all within calorie limits.

I train 4 times a week ( wish it was 5 but I have 2 small kids, it's a compromise with wife ), Push Pull Legs. I have workouts A and B and rotate between them.

Push workout A :
3 warm-up sets of incline dumbbell presses, then 3 working sets, reverse pyramid, 6 reps, 9 reps, 12 reps, drop set on the last set,
1 warm-up set and 3 working sets of one
incline cable flyers, reverse pyramid, 8, 12, 15 reps,
1 warm-up set and 3 working sets of decline dumbbell presses, 6, 9, 12 reps,
2 working sets of decline cable flyes,
1 warm-up set and 3 working sets of cable lateralt raises, 10, 12, 15 reps,
1 warm up set and 3 working sets of dumbbell shoulder presses, 12, 15, 20 reps,
2 working sets of weighted dips,
2 working sets of cable push-downs,
30 minutes cardio

Push workout B:
3 warm-up sets and 3 working sets of smith machine shoulder presses, 6,9,12 reps,
1 warm-up set and 3 working sets of seated dumbbell lateral raises, 8,10,12 reps,
1 warm-up set and 3 working sets of flat bench cable flyes, 10,12,15 reps
1 warm-up set and 3 working sets of flat bench dumb presses, 10, 12, 15 reps
3 working sets of decline cable flyes, 12,15,18 reps,
3 working sets of decline machine presses, 10,15,20 reps
3 working sets of dumbbell skull crushers, 8,10,12,
30 minutes cardio,

Basically all the working sets are taken to failure or close to failure, on some exercises 1 working set is a rest-pause set and 1 is a drop set.
I used to do only 2 working sets per exercise but recently added a little more volume, to see how it works, it seems to be the new tendency

Pull and leg workouts have the same logic and similar volume, I could write it all down but is it necessary?
When it comes to training I'm a little limited at age 43, can't do barbell presses because they hurt my shoulders, can't do regular back squats, only front squats, on pull exercises I try to use a neutral grip as much as possible, I get forearm tendonitis when I use pronated or supinated grip too much.
I should maybe also mention that my life is quite stressful, I have a demanding graphic design job with constant deadlines, but who isn't stressed these days, I don't think it's the main factor hindering me from growing... I also have 2 small kids so often don't get enough sleep, it sure plays a role but probably not so big...

What do you think? Something totally off with my diet or training?

Since your problem is putting on size, I'm not sure why you're talking about what you're doing post cycle with reduced calories? It's part of the equation but what does it look like when you're pursuing size?

 

[KillerStack]

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

I'm going to be contrarian and say if someone appears to be a nonresponder or very poor responder it's rarely the training. IRL it's rarely the diet either per se from my experience. Of course, if the calories aren't there nothing can happen but people who appear to only put on fat aren't usually uderfed.

I'm with Type II, most here don't seem to appeciate how there are quite a few people who have extremely limited bb potential.

I have no idea how this guy applies what he has written and he could surely improve his results, most could, but if someone doesn't seem to gain with at least some effort chances are that even if everything was optimal they might gain a few tiny pounds more - still not jacked and never will be.

Do you guys know someone who hadn't grown for years but suddenly started growing just by "fixing" their training or diet? I sure don't, not a single one. I know a lot of people who just put on 15lbs of water with drugs and not much else happens, they just get fat if they increase the calories. I'm somewhat like that myself.

I could show a lot of examples. One that immediately comes to mind with his passing is powerlifting guru Louie Simmons and this was not someone with twink genes either. Or take Charles Poliquin. Oh he never tried to become very muscular you say. Doesn't matter imo, the genes were poor.

One pic where he's obviously attempting to gain. Another showing the poor muscle bellies and genes at an older age. And he's not among the worst responders either, far from it.

 

[BLang]

Do you guys know someone who hadn't grown for years but suddenly started growing just by "fixing" their training or diet?

Yeah, plenty. Including me.

 

[smok44]

Since your problem is putting on size, I'm not sure why you're talking about what you're doing post cycle with reduced calories? It's part of the equation but what does it look like when you're pursuing size?

I ended my last cycle at 4500kcal on training days and 3900kcal on rest days, but it was basically the same diet, I just kept gradually adding carbs and some protein from week to week, split across all the meals but mostly to my preworkout and post workout meals. I gained 15 pounds in 8 weeks but now I see it was mostly fat and water...

 

[bad rad]

I ended my last cycle at 4500kcal on training days and 3900kcal on rest days, but it was basically the same diet, I just kept gradually adding carbs and some protein from week to week, split across all the meals but mostly to my preworkout and post workout meals. I gained 15 pounds in 8 weeks but now I see it was mostly fat and water...

Like many have said, you're not a non-responder to AAS or you'd be an XY female.

Have you've gotten bloodwork? Low thyroid hormones will cause a lot of issues and low response to AAS too.

 

[The_Beast]

I'm going to be contrarian and say if someone appears to be a nonresponder or very poor responder it's rarely the training. IRL it's rarely the diet either per se from my experience. Of course, if the calories aren't there nothing can happen but people who appear to only put on fat aren't usually uderfed.

I'm with Type II, most here don't seem to appeciate how there are quite a few people who have extremely limited bb potential.

I have no idea how this guy applies what he has written and he could surely improve his results, most could, but if someone doesn't seem to gain with at least some effort chances are that even if everything was optimal they might gain a few tiny pounds more - still not jacked and never will be.

Do you guys know someone who hadn't grown for years but suddenly started growing just by "fixing" their training or diet? I sure don't, not a single one. I know a lot of people who just put on 15lbs of water with drugs and not much else happens, they just get fat if they increase the calories. I'm somewhat like that myself.

I could show a lot of examples. One that immediately comes to mind with his passing is powerlifting guru Louie Simmons and this was not someone with twink genes either. Or take Charles Poliquin. Oh he never tried to become very muscular you say. Doesn't matter imo, the genes were poor.

One pic where he's obviously attempting to gain. Another showing the poor muscle bellies and genes at an older age. And he's not among the worst responders either, far from it.

Just some correction on Charles Poliquin, who was a friend of mine.

First, the second picture was when he was in his 50s and riddled with injuries that prevented him from training hard (if at all).

I will say that he had poor genetic structure to "look like a bodybuilder" in that he had very narrow shoulders (bone structure) and very long limbs for his height.

BUT he did have a strong response to gear.

I remember we were having lunch together in Colorado a few years back (probably 10 ish)

He wore a sleeveless shirt and looked like an "old man who used to train". Although he was not "old" at that time (mid 40s). But you know the look: you could see that he used to train hard but the muscles were like deflated remnants of what they used to be.

4 weeks later we were giving a seminar together and when he showed up he looked fucking JACKED! Especially the arms. Very big, shapely and separated (so much better than the first pic you posted). While the arms were impressive, the speed at which he went from the old deflated look, to hard like stone was shocking.

The thing is that Charles actually lost his passion for training once he became more of a businessman. Once he switched to having his own supplement company and giving seminar rather than coaching it's like he stopped caring about training.

He would actually train intermittently. In spurts of 6-8 weeks in which he would train fairly hard then barely train for a few months.

And as I mentioned, at one point he was plagued with some many injuries (especially shoulders) that he just couldn't train hard at all.

As for steroid use. He had a genetic heart problem. Few people know this but he actually had very frequent "mini heart attacks". So he didn't stay on steroids for long (it would actually have been a lot smarter not to use anything at all, especially considering how he died). It was really be on steroids for 4-6 weeks (he was a big fan of anadrol) while training hard. Go off while still training hard for two weeks. Then dramatically reducing training.

He would do this when he wanted/needed to look the part. Until in the end he actually stopped caring as his reputation in his circle was enough to give him credibility during his seminars.

If it were not for these issues, could he have looked like a high-level bodybuilder? No (although he told me, at the height of his career that he would like to do a show, it never materialized). Not because of an incapacity to build muscle, but because he just didn't have the structure.

He also liked to train for strength a lot more than for hypertrophy. He always joked that his average rep number was 2.7 reps per set. Which, while an exaggeration, was not far from the truth. And we do know that it is not the best way to build maximum size (and it's a good way to get those injuries if done all the time, especially with the structure he had).

Your general point tha some people just don't have the genetics to be pro-zie despite all the knowledge in world is still true. I just wanted to add some context about Charles.

 

[The_Beast]

Just to add to my previous post. This is an example of a better arm picture.

Also, because he was a world-renowned training expert and would often make fun of people who didn't train properly, it's easy to assume that he was spot-on with everything all the time... training, nutrition, etc. He wasn't (as I mentioned in my previous post).

Ironically for most of his life he actually only liked training arms. He actually did no direct shoulder work, barely trained legs and didn't put the same effort in training his chest and back as he did arms. Add that to everything I mentioned above, and it's easy to understand that he never reached anywhere the level that he could have achieved. So in his case it was not a genetically poor response to training (or gear).

His nutrition was also not always spot on. When he was in his "6-8 week hard training block" he was spot on with his diet. Otherwise, he would skip meals (he once consulted with me because he just couldn't eat, no appetite) and would often have donuts and pastries for breakfast (far from his recommended meat and nuts).

 

[fisther69]

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

But is he actually eating that shit? Personally, anytime someone says nothing positive is happening and they post their diet and workout and it’s excellent..but nothing positive IS HAPPENING?!!!! I asssume they are flat out lying about their diet and the workout is the saddest fucken thing you’ll ever see

 

[car09013]

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

Clean food, yes. But it’s not nearly enough. If it was enough, he’d be putting on weight. But he isn’t. I honestly know pre-contest females who consume significantly more food than OP describes in the diet that he outlined.

If he was pushing 100-200g carbs per meal, yes even on off days, he would be growing. Pushing my off day calories higher was one of the best things I’ve done to help me gain weight. Not sure who spread the myth that you’ll become insulin resistant if you don’t eat low carb on off days, or that carbs aren’t important for recovery and tissue accrual on off days, but that one oversight alone kills so many people’s progress. People here seem to forget that weight gain and loss is MATH at it’s most basic level. Not gaining weight? You’re not eating enough, period. Not losing weight? Unless you’re in the depths of prep…you’re eating too much, period. Enough of this hormone and metabolism crap, it’s thermodynamics - addition and subtraction at its simplest level.

I’d also like to see his injury history with a physical therapist so that we can see some more compound movements in the mix and less smaller, isolation exercises and dumbbells. I’m not saying you can’t grow with machines and dumbbells - I use them - but with beginner stats after a lifetime of training, I’d expect to see more growth with old injuries PT’ed and some more regressed compound movements in the mix than what he’s currently doing.

And the comment about Rob Harris not turning pro to compare to a guy who struggles to be 180 lbs…wow. Delusion is the most dangerous drug at all. Fact is OP most high performing members here have exceeded your stats before they ever put 1CC in their bodies. It was through intelligent training, grit, and EATING MORE FOOD - not just “eating clean!” Eating clean is great, but when it’s clearly not enough food, it doesn’t matter how clean it is. It isn’t enough to support new tissue growth. Terrible comparison.

 

[car09013]

But is he actually eating that shit? Personally, anytime someone says nothing positive is happening and they post their diet and workout and it’s excellent..but nothing positive IS HAPPENING?!!!! I asssume they are flat out lying about their diet and the workout is the saddest fucken thing you’ll ever see

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he’s eating all of that all of the time. If you’re struggling to gain weight, guess what the answer is?

It’s “eat more of it.” Every time. The answer no one wants to hear. If you can’t gain weight on what you’re currently consuming…you need to eat more.

 

[marssel]

I've posted here a couple of times before, to summarize, I'm now 43, got prescribed TRT 6 years ago, started cycling shortly after. Have been training all my life from age 13, hoping to get big one day
Unfortunately, it turns out that I'm a total non responder to AAS, no matter what I try my muscles just don't want to grow any further. I'm 6 feet tall, at 10% body fat I'm usually around 180 lb, when I go on a cycle, even fairly heavy, I gain maybe 15-20 lb in 8-12 weeks, but I can see it's mostly fat and water. Yes I'm getting a little stronger, but nothing spectacular, a rep or two here and there. Then when I start to cut, even very slowly, I end up again at 180 lb at 10% bf. My diet is really on point, I track all my macros, training is heavy and well designed.

My question is - is there a chance that when I introduce HGH to my protocol, it will be a game changer, maybe I respond better to HGH than AAS, or should I just give up and stay at the healthy 180 lb for the rest of my life, giving up on my dreams ?

My self prescribed TRT is 200mg TEST E a week. The last cycle I tried to bulk on for 8 weeks was 600mg Test EW, 400mg Tren E EW and 100mg Anadrol ED, first time I felt really bad on a cycle even though I've tried 1000mg Test E 700mg Equipoise before, didn't give me shit....
I'm rather an endomorph, can eat any amount of food. On this last cycle I went up to 4500kcal but started gaining fat. Now I went down to 3200kcal and fat is already melting away but my gains too

Thanks for any input!

Good GH is life changing but you still gotta put the gym time in it just lets u put more in more often

 

[graybass]

Simple, more quality diet. 1-1,1/2 grams protein per pound of body weight.
Bomb the major muscle groups:
16-20 sets of pyramiding style heavy weights (safely) for chest, legs, back (not including minor secondary muscles)
Massive compound movements:
Bench press and all other pressing motions for chest
Squats, leg press etc for legs
heavy rows for back.
Separate WO Day for each major muscle group.
My good friend and trainer of elite athletes always said the magic starts at 1000mg of test as your base. Train for size for an entire year.
Call me in 12 months.

 

[marssel]

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

Yea and we always say diet diet diet bc it’s usually what we fuck up bc we r all insane trainers but if you’re not in there going to failure and training til you bleed you’re never gonna have an impressive physique but in a forum like this we all assume people are grinding to the bone again for us it’s life even the old heads who don’t compete and train for fun, our fun is 1,000% trainsanity.

 

[Tomgrass]

I will tell you what I think it can work.
First stick to test primo cycle. Nothing else. 250 test 400 primo and stay on it for 6 months. Then set up proteins high 300-350 gram a day. Have moderate carb diet 200 around a day and fat 0.6-0.7 per kg of bodyweight. Choose lean proteins mainly and stick to carbs close to workouts. 6 eggs as a last meal. Eat a lot of fruits ! Oatmeal sweet potatoes as your carbs. Dont be shy with cinamon. Add 3 whey shakes 50 grams each between meals so 200 from
Solid food 150 from whey. Always have post workout complex carbs with fruits and 2 grams epa and dhea. Also have a lot of tomato juice with meals and sea salt. Bananas are also important and pineapple with meals.
Training wise
Chest
Back
Off
Shoulders
Legs
Arms
Off
Your first exercises
Chest hammer
Back rows or hammer
Shoulders hammer press
Legs squats
Arms for triceps narrow bench press and ez curls for biceps
Those are your most important exercises where you
will do two working sets and utilise heavy weights with reos range 6-8
Then selections of exercises is up to you but make sure that you hit all rep ranges of movement and use all equipment - dumbells cables etc.
The more isolate exercise the higher the range.
For back 5 exercises 2 sets each
Chest 4 exercises
Shoulders 4
Legs 5
Arms 4 (4triceps 4 biceps)
Abs after every workout.
Log every sessions and MUST beat logbook every time. 3-4 weeks past cant beat logbook- different exercise.
First set nearly to failure second Always to failure. Time between sets? Whatever it takes to beat logbook you need 1 minute? Cool, you need 3? Fine as well.
Get rid of preworkouts
10 grams of eaa before 10 grams after workout- that is your supplementation. Nothing else.
Good luck