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Peaking for a show and drying out, my way.

Magnum

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Over the years I have seen too many guys screw up months of hard training in the last week more often than not and I am too the point that I want to scream everytime that I hear about someone who is going to carb load, sodium load, decarb, water load, water deplete, take x amounts of this diuretic starting so many days out and so on. You would think that by now the majority of guys would have caught on by now that these methods are at best hit or miss and for the most part DO NOT WORK and will completely ruin what you have worked so hard to acheive. Some of what I will say is science and some is just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it, but I just thought it would be fun to talk about and maybe actually keep a few guys from making the same mistakes over and over again. Maybe this can be made a sticky for a while.



The standard way (although there are more) to supposedly come into a show full, ripped and dry is to drop your carbs 7-10 out, carb up on Wed, thur, and Fri usually with insulin and tons of pie filling. YUM Then you start dropping your water intake around Wed. and cut it Fri. night. Start taking aldactone on Teus. to lower aldosterone levels. (which wouldn't need to be done if you are drinking plenty of water) Another aldactone and maybe some lasix or diazide Sat morning if needed, which is usually done since most people can't tell the difference between and dehydrated muscle and one that is spilled over which only compounds the problem even more and don't forget, no water all day Sat. Maybe a few sips after prejudging followed by more diuretics and more insulin. I had a guy last year who I prepped for a show beg me to do this standard method on him for his show and after much thought, even knowing what would happen I did what he requested. After all, it was his money. The good news is that this regime is very predictable. He spilled over right on schedule and on Fri morning he was 12 pounds heavier and smooth as a babies ass. I still regreat doing this even though he threw no blame at me. I will never do this gain for no amount of money. It's either my way or no way! The funny thing is that he came to because he saw a couple of guys I trained and wanted to know how I got them so ripped and dry. Even when I told him how he still didn't listen. So, I know that no matter what I write in the mini article and how great it may work guys won't follow it cause it doesn't seem magical enough.

When I dry someone out for a show I use the same basic plan most of the time. Things do vary slighty depending on how the person's body is metabolizing and respoding to everything. Most of the time I do not have the luxury of drying someone out from scratch. I am usually the one that a competitor comes to 2 weeks out or less to try and fix someone else's screw ups. So, my methods are not always the same for this reason. If I went into extreme detail about all the reasons I do what I do this would be book length so I will just touch upon some of the most important aspects of drying out.

I do not like and never have liked the traditional carb up process. It doesn't work! Most of the time you spill and then to correct the problem people will take diuretics and that makes it worse. You body can only hold approx. 350 grams of glucose in the muscles give or take and the rest will go to the liver and some obviously in the blood stream. How can someone expect to take in a few thousand grams of carbs over a 3 or 4 day period and not spill is beyond me. Most people know that for every gram of glucose you take in you body will need 2.7 grams of water to help with the storage of it. Once you muscles are completely saturated where do you think that some of the extra carbs will go? Your're going to spill like crazy and all the extra water is going to follow with it. Althought I do carb people up it is not in the traditional sense and you have to be very careful.

Once most guys spill over they will most certainly use diuretics. Yes, I have and still do use them, BUT very sparingly and NOT all the time. ( I have actually dehydrated a person once by using water only by not timing the cut off correctly and the amount of water) They not only pull water from under the skin, but from in the blood stream. This also lowers your sodium levels which in turn lowers your blood pressure. This will cause your body to push plasma out of you veins and outside the blood stream causing even more problems. It is very important to make sure not to go to extremes with your sodium intake. Too much and you will spill and too little you will cramp and be unable to contract your muscle. You need about a 2:1 ratio when it some to sodium and potassium. I do raise up sodium slightly and lower it slighty, but the slighty is the key word here.

I also lower carbs and carb load, but again not to any great degree and not the reasons you might think. I lower the carbs mainly to dry the person out and them raise them little by little so as not to spill. I go to the edge without spilling over. Could the person be fuller? Most likey, but not enough to matter and if they spill they are fucked! Normally I do not start raising carbs till Fri. night or Sat morning. For those of you who think you need 2 to three or more days to carb up are WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!. It takes hours not days. When I diet my guys down, I normally do it will a very low carb diet (contraversy again) I usually will see them on a day BEFORE they carb up. at this time they are always dry and hard. During the carb up phase they will comment on how full and vascular they are around the 4 to 6 hours mark. By the next morning they have spilled. This, you might think is proof that the shitload method should work wonders. NOT SO, but it does or should prove to you at least a couple of things. One, that you do not need days to carb up and two you WILL spill from all the carbs and you will need a couple of days to normalize.

Cutting sodium and lowering water intake is another sure fire way to smooth out. I guarentee you that if you cut your sodium that you will after a few days still have a normal blood level of sodium, and the only thing that you will have succeded in doing is screwing up the delicate balance of your bodies water, sodium and potassium levels leaving you looking smooth. Your body will start producing aldosterone in the absence of sodium to help retain sodium blood levels so nothing has changed. Some will counter with, then why not take aldactone to lower aldosterne levels? I say, why lower water in the first place? Keeping you water intake high will keep aldosterone levels low and keep your muscles full and hard plus you'll be nice and dry some contest day. Why throw in a bunch of unpredictable drugs if you don't have too! Remember, lowering water levels will always result in a soft, smooth look to the muscle.

Remember, there are no tricks! A good trainer will know when to change your program based on how your body is responding.
 
good post.

just goes to show, as the saying says, there are many ways to skin a cat.

understandably there are so many variables to take into consideration in the last week of prep that no one has ever developed one distinct, fail proof, dry out/ carb up that is guaranteed to bring an athelete in 100%, 100% of the time.

or do you think it is possible to bring guys in in shape, time and again?

i know alot of prep guys like to believe thier system is the ONE, but can there only ever be one...?





BFU
 
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bigfatandugly said:
good post.

just goes to show, as the saying says, there are many ways to skin a cat.

understandably there are so many variables to take into consideration in the last week of prep that no one has ever developed one distinct, fail proof, dry out/ carb up that is guaranteed to bring an athelete in 100%, 100% of the time.

or do you think it is possible to bring guys in in shape, time and again?

i know alot of prep guys like to believe thier system is the ONE, but can there only ever be one...?





BFU

Well, in all modesty I have, with the exception of the example posted. Yes, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but some ways are better and more predictable. ;)
 
Interesting

So do you recommend cutting out gear a week or two out?

Not cutting sodium AND water?? Sounds healthy none the less. I always did notice in Battle for the O videos, that Ronnie and even Shawn Ray looked crazy dry a couple weeks out when they claimed to be totally depleted. Yes, probably not as full but damn shredded and dry, even while tanking the H2O! Only difference between the two of them, Ronnie's sodium is obviously still high at that point with all that BBQ sauce and Ketsup! S Ray on the other hand, doesn't add sodium/condiments to anything precontest.
 
hardkor said:
So do you recommend cutting out gear a week or two out?

Not cutting sodium AND water?? Sounds healthy none the less. I always did notice in Battle for the O videos, that Ronnie and even Shawn Ray looked crazy dry a couple weeks out when they claimed to be totally depleted. Yes, probably not as full but damn shredded and dry, even while tanking the H2O! Only difference between the two of them, Ronnie's sodium is obviously still high at that point with all that BBQ sauce and Ketsup! S Ray on the other hand, doesn't add sodium/condiments to anything precontest.


I do cut back on sodium just not to zero. Personally I don't really see that big of a difference in cutting things out, but I would never cut out gear as far as 2 weeks out. Androgens give you that hard look, diet makes you defined.
 
This is one smart man. Probably one of the smartest people iv ever spoken to as far as contest prep. I would be saving this thread if i were all of you haha..... but this doesnt even tap the surface of the amount of contest prep knowledge this man posseses..... our server isnt big enough to hold that knowledge
 
TooPowerful4u said:
This is one smart man. Probably one of the smartest people iv ever spoken to as far as contest prep. I would be saving this thread if i were all of you haha..... but this doesnt even tap the surface of the amount of contest prep knowledge this man posseses..... our server isnt big enough to hold that knowledge

Jeez bro, thanks, but damn I'm humbled. I appreciate the kind words. Seriously.
 
Reply

|--[\\\]>------ I agree, great post. its an honor to have s'one like Magnum on the board.
 
How much of a negative effect do you think using a low carb approach throughout the diet plays into the traditional carb up not working.

I only say this because i've never had a problem with using the traditional approach and most of my clients use a higher carb approach to dieting.
 
I found your article interesting but the following comment baffles me:

When I diet my guys down, I normally do it will a very low carb diet (contraversy again) I usually will see them on a day BEFORE they carb up. at this time they are always dry and hard.

As an ectomorph, a low carb diet within days makes me look flat, stringy, soft, watery and just downright shit. So have no idea how you come to this conclusion that your guys appear 'dry and hard' on a low carb diet?
 
pacesetter said:
I found your article interesting but the following comment baffles me:



As an ectomorph, a low carb diet within days makes me look flat, stringy, soft, watery and just downright shit. So have no idea how you come to this conclusion that your guys appear 'dry and hard' on a low carb diet?

I have heard this a million times, but curiously all the guys how I have trained never experience this. When I mentioned the carb up I am not talking about righ before a show, but during the dieting phase. This is done usually once a week. I have NEVER had anyone lose mass and some will gain during the precontest phase.

When you use words like stringy, flat and watery could you please explain to me what is going on in your body specifically to make you use these words? I am not sure what you mean by watery. Are you saying that you are actually holding water or is that term just being used for lack of a better desciption. Same with stringy, I don't understand how a muscle can "look" stringy?

I do not expect you to "fully" understand what I am saying since I did not fully explain it. I just barley mentioned my diet approach since this topic was more about drying out for contest day.
 
dirkmoneyshot said:
How much of a negative effect do you think using a low carb approach throughout the diet plays into the traditional carb up not working.

I only say this because i've never had a problem with using the traditional approach and most of my clients use a higher carb approach to dieting.

None. If it had ANY negative effects I would not use it.

Just wanted to add this. When you say "throughout" the diet are you reffering to the precontest diet phase? If so this has nothing to do with the carb up phase right before a show. As I metioned before, I tread the line when carbing people up, but try not to cross it. Meaning I carb them up as full as possible without spilling. When I said they could be carbed up more I am splitting hairs. More carbs would not be helpful at this point. The main reason someone will look full and hard on stage will be because he is fully HYDRATED!!!!!
 
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Magnum said:
The main reason someone will look full and hard on stage will be because he is fully HYDRATED!!!!!

by saying fully hydrated are you using the 350 grams of glucose to 2.7 grams of water ratio, meaning is the amount of water you have each competitor taken in determined specifically by the amount of carbs you have them consume, or is it less of a numbers game like that and more of a feel/ how the competitor looks type of appraoch?

i find the science behind contest prep vey interesting, in fact it is the sole reason i compete, to learn more thru application. and the best part is i'm still trying to find for myself how to piece my puzzle together. THAT's the fun part, the challenge, not the trophy.
 
I have had no problem drying out for a show but I can't seem to stay full so this info has been a great help Magnum. You really know your stuff, respect.
 
Magnum and I spent about 2hrs on the phone catching up,,(I forgot how goofy you sound :p ).... I met him only once at the arnold and I have to say out of anyone I have ever talked to this guy KNOWS HIS SHIT and impressed the hell outta me...at the time I was just getting into learning prep, but its interesting because all the stuff he said now makes compelete sense to me where as then it sounded right but still different than what I been told,,, because what I had been told was by guys telling me what they had been told and so on and so on.... When it comes down to it and you know the human body,, what he says is spot on...plus I have never met someone who can curse as much as me on the phone...... LMAO... like two sailors talking at a bar.....:D
 
Magnum said:
I have heard this a million times, but curiously all the guys how I have trained never experience this. When I mentioned the carb up I am not talking about righ before a show, but during the dieting phase. This is done usually once a week. I have NEVER had anyone lose mass and some will gain during the precontest phase.

When you use words like stringy, flat and watery could you please explain to me what is going on in your body specifically to make you use these words? I am not sure what you mean by watery. Are you saying that you are actually holding water or is that term just being used for lack of a better desciption. Same with stringy, I don't understand how a muscle can "look" stringy?

I do not expect you to "fully" understand what I am saying since I did not fully explain it. I just barley mentioned my diet approach since this topic was more about drying out for contest day.


Maybe my understanding of your version of low carb dieting is out there, as I'm assuming very low carbs, say anywhere under 200 a day for 6 or so consecutive days per week. Those descriptors I use are probably not the best it's difficult to communicate. But if I can describe it like this, that low carb dieting, especially for extended periods of time, makes me flat, looking at me, you'd think I've lost muscle (maybe not but certainly appear smaller due to depeleted muscle glycogen stores), and that appears to make the muscles look softer. And I've seen this with others who have similar bodytypes. And herein lies my gripe with all this excess carb depleting. There is no way I can fill out and get anywhere near that full hard look that many boast by being on a diet and then limiting carbs for a carb depleting phase and then carb loading - whether a few hundred carbs or much more.

One of my mates has been competing for some 15 years and he is ectomorphic as well and stands 6'5. He found that carb depleting before carb loading, after dieting for some 16 weeks, really screwed his condition. In fact, he does it best when he doesn't carb deplete at all (dieting alone for 16 weeks was enough) but just carb loads at over 1000 gms a day for 7 days.

I like your subtle approach, I think that's got heaps of merit. Too many times relying on hocus pocus in the final days before a show (assuming everything else is on) just shocks the body and fucks things up: Carb depleting/loading, sodium depleting/loading, diuretics etc. When all is said, people have to find what works best for their individual body, like the bulking thread that is on here atm, some can handle 10K cals a day while others would just get fat.

Don't mean to hijack your thread buddy, just wanted to add here that I train with people who are endo/mesomorphic and they're dietary requirements are so much different. They can diet on less than 100 grams of carbs a day and then carb load on a few hundred grams of carbs and look full and ripped. Following their diet advise really screws up on people with an ecto bodytype.
 
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pacesetter said:
Maybe my understanding of your version of low carb dieting is out there, as I'm assuming very low carbs, say anywhere under 200 a day for 6 or so consecutive days per week. Those descriptors I use are probably not the best it's difficult to communicate. But if I can describe it like this, that low carb dieting, especially for extended periods of time, makes me flat, looking at me, you'd think I've lost muscle (maybe not but certainly appear smaller due to depeleted muscle glycogen stores), and that appears to make the muscles look softer. And I've seen this with others who have similar bodytypes. And herein lies my gripe with all this excess carb depleting. There is no way I can fill out and get anywhere near that full hard look that many boast by being on a diet and then limiting carbs for a carb depleting phase and then carb loading - whether a few hundred carbs or much more.

One of my mates has been competing for some 15 years and he is ectomorphic as well and stands 6'5. He found that carb depleting before carb loading, after dieting for some 16 weeks, really screwed his condition. In fact, he does it best when he doesn't carb deplete at all (dieting alone for 16 weeks was enough) but just carb loads at over 1000 gms a day for 7 days.

I like your subtle approach, I think that's got heaps of merit. Too many times relying on hocus pocus in the final days before a show (assuming everything else is on) just shocks the body and fucks things up: Carb depleting/loading, sodium depleting/loading, diuretics etc. When all is said, people have to find what works best for their individual body, like the bulking thread that is on here atm, some can handle 10K cals a day while others would just get fat.

Don't mean to hijack your thread buddy, just wanted to add here that I train with people who are endo/mesomorphic and they're dietary requirements are so much different. They can diet on less than 100 grams of carbs a day and then carb load on a few hundred grams of carbs and look full and ripped. Following their diet advise really screws up on people with an ecto bodytype.


It would be foolish for me to say that a low fat, high carb diet does not work for getting ripped. Many people have successfully used this type of diet for ages. I have been using my type of diet for many years on many types of people including ectomorphs with great success. In fact, the guy who I was talking about in my original post was an extreme ectomporph. He swore up and down on his Mother's dead dogs grave that he would shrink up to nothing if I put him on a low carb diet. He said he NEEDED TONS OF CARBS! because he had such a fast metabolism and believe me he did. Probabley one of the fastest I had ever run into. Even though he spilled he weighed 20 more than the last year he competed. Some was muscle that he retained from not using a low fat, high carb diet. He initially lost about 12 pounds the first 2 weeks. Mainly water and after that he lost about 2 pounds per week. His body adjusted quite well after about 2 weeks or so. I want to clarify something about this kid as far as the spilling issue. I managed to get most of the water off him and he ended up pretty damn hard and placed third in his class at a pretty tuff show. In fact, I don't think that he would have done any better no matter what he looked like. The reason he placed third was because of his conditioning. The other guys were just too big to match. So he did look pretty good, just not as good as I would have liked if he would have done it my way.

I have been researching this type of diet for around 20 years now and I have never had anyone lose mass while using it. Most people don't realize that your body needs as certain amount of essential fats to grow and hold on to muscle. I do have certain things that I do and yes, some of it is calorie control just like the other types of high carb diets. I'm sure that if you went on the traditional low carb diet you mention with little or no carbs the whole time you are dieting for a show you would no doubt respond the way you say.

As far as your mate goes, I think he is very smart to leave things be. If he is looking good the whole time leading up to the show then no reason to mess with the unpredictable.
 
Low Carbs equal Dry and...

Magnum said:
. I lower the carbs mainly to dry the person out and then raise them little by little so as not to spill.
is there a little more detailed description of your lowering carb method to dry out? based on your experience and understanding what else(other elements) would you say plays a key role in helping dry one out when lowering carbs, anything particular one should Add, Lower or take away at this time?
 
Magnum whats your basic process to even getting someone down to that last week. Do you like to drop carbs everyweek, are you a fan of the ketogenic diet style. Whats your basic suggestions for someone who is trying to even get to that dry out week. Thanks
 
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