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People eat too much protein

qbkilla

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I recently saw a post on a different forum where a well known diabetes doctor stated that high protein being bad for those with composed kidneys is a lie and based on one study, that high carbs are actually what hurt the kidneys. Thoughts? I know many nephrologists say otherwise.
 

TheOtherOne55

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Man, so many individual posts I want to reply to.

I find it funny that the SHWs we have here aren't giving their thoughts with where this discussion has gone over the last day.
hahhah was just waaaiting to hear everyone and everything being said.

I feel like this thread is jumping around A LOT. It was about protein requirements and then it went to "the quickest way to 250" and now its Matt Jansen lol.

I'm only going to chime in to the quickest way to grow because I've basically followed a Dante approach for what, multiple years now. PLUS...i took a good chunk off in the last decade. I grew like a weed...chilled, did some PLing, didn't want to push much past 255 because that's right about where the limit is of where most women are either into it or not...but then i got married and pushed it again. I honestly probably could've gotten there FASTER if i would've had dedicated off seasons, but i was loving women too much and would cap out at about 255-260. Did that for years. The past 2 offseason are the ones I've made the best progress, and both of them were pushing hard. Getting to about that 12-14%ish and holding for awhile before cutting. THAT approach helped me make big jumps.

There's thread here on PM where Dante talks about Kevin Jordan and his rise through the amateur ranks. I think he had pics on there (from the MD forums I believe) of KJ making his weight jumps in the offseason. Going from 250...to then 275...to then 290. And every time he peeled off the fat, it was a game changer. Probably my favorite thread on here about getting big.

I think the highest I tipped the scales this offseason was 307. I'm low 290's now on a cruise. But Im also very realistic and believe that I probably need ONE MORE PUSH for me to be competitive the next time i step on stage. I was literally telling my wife this last night. If at a possible, I'll probably diet down and see where I'm at in 2021. Maybe that's 253 or 260 or 249. Who knows. But I'll probably have a nice little rebound into another offseason and do one more session of filling out and pushing calories in before I'm comfortable.

Honestly, if your goal is to look good at the beach...go up 400 cals and chill. You don't need to push. You just want arms and abs. If your goal is to look nasty and have trouble fitting in doorways, you need to push it a little bit.
 

USMuscle9403

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1.0-1.5 natural....1.5-2.0 loaded/enhanced. Yes i absolutely count the grams from shakes. I used to have guys eat 6 times a day and it would be 4 meals 2 shakes or even 3 meals 3 shakes for guys with difficult appetites. I personally think people undercount protein grams all the time and they take in more than they think they are taking in. A leveled 70cc of plain protein scoop is one value and a big rounded 70cc scoop is 5-7 more grams of plain protein. Put in 2 scoops and thats 10-15 more grams than they think they are taking in with that shake.....3 X a day is 30-45 grams more protein than they think they are taking in. Same things with meals. If someone got meticulous of the exact amount of protein they were taking in instead of guesstimating it (im not suggesting to be that meticulous) I am willing to bet every meal is truly above that protein ingestion amount they think they are taking in.

Dante, since you're in here, I gotta pick your brain...

What's your opinion on any sort of maximum amount of protein that can be absorbed and utilized per meal? What do you think of protein consumption in the context of intermittent fasting, for instance? I know what my own experience has been, and that's that the timing is less relevant than just consuming enough protein, in general. Personally, it hasn't seemed to matter a whole lot - i.e. I can take in an average of 300g in two meals and everything seems hunky dorey - but I would love to hear your input on this.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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I really think this all comes down to choices too. When i was in my formulative years of training it was the late 80's and even more so the 90's. There was no classic physique. It was get fucking massive or go the hell home. It really was. Nowadays i really appreciate Chris Bumsteads look...he looks freaking awesome...and if that option was presented back then, I might have gone that route. But it wasnt an option and everyone and their brother was on a "search and destroy" mission to put as much muscle mass on your frame as humanly possible. I do know this matter of factly. I started at 137lbs at 20 years old... and topped out at 303. If i had tried to do that journey with 300-400 calories over maintenance? I really believe i would have made it to about 185lbs at the top and kaput. Heck i got stuck at 194 for about a year and stuck at 208-212 for 2.5 years and i was eating so much food it was ridiculous. This is where drugs skewers everyones thoughts....If you have a 220lb high school offensive lineman who wants to someday make it to the pro's...he has to get to 260-290 for college football....he has pretty much one choice. He has to eat his way up there. its not going to happen with 300-400 calories over maintenance. Its the same thing in bodybuilding. If you are a 5'10" 185lb dude and want to be a massive contest winning superheavy...you need to be 250-260 peeled onstage....which means roughly 30-45 lbs over that in the offseason....that aint going to happen at 300-400 calories over maintenance at 185lbs. The greatest pipe dream you can sell in bodybuilding is that you can stay lean as all hell from 150 all the way up to 250. You can probably make a big dent in that trip if you want to just juice and GH the absolutely heck out of yourself to try to get there. If you feel a 5 trophy and having a heart attack going to the mailbox at 47 years of age is worth it....thats a choice you can make. So there really is only 2 routes you can take: A) Sauce the living heck out of yourself and look awesome all the way there but maybe find yourself with severe health problems in your 40's. B) Eat a large amount of clean bodybuilding food, look alot smoother and not as awesome and try to do the least amount of juice you can to get over every plateau.
 

DarrenG29

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1.0-1.5 natural....1.5-2.0 loaded/enhanced. Yes i absolutely count the grams from shakes. I used to have guys eat 6 times a day and it would be 4 meals 2 shakes or even 3 meals 3 shakes for guys with difficult appetites. I personally think people undercount protein grams all the time and they take in more than they think they are taking in. A leveled 70cc of plain protein scoop is one value and a big rounded 70cc scoop is 5-7 more grams of plain protein. Put in 2 scoops and thats 10-15 more grams than they think they are taking in with that shake.....3 X a day is 30-45 grams more protein than they think they are taking in. Same things with meals. If someone got meticulous of the exact amount of protein they were taking in instead of guesstimating it (im not suggesting to be that meticulous) I am willing to bet every meal is truly above that protein ingestion amount they think they are taking in.
Awesome thanks Dante

this is where I shut up and listen respect the legends of the sport who’ve been doing this longer than I’ve been alive

im all about being and getting back massive I respect men’s physique but I’m never going to want that I just love the freak factor forget girls my ex is gone girls find me a disgusting veiny roid head (uneducated) it takes me more than that if only they understood the word dedication
 

DarrenG29

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I really think this all comes down to choices too. When i was in my formulative years of training it was the late 80's and even more so the 90's. There was no classic physique. It was get fucking massive or go the hell home. It really was. Nowadays i really appreciate Chris Bumsteads look...he looks freaking awesome...and if that option was presented back then, I might have gone that route. But it wasnt an option and everyone and their brother was on a "search and destroy" mission to put as much muscle mass on your frame as humanly possible. I do know this matter of factly. I started at 137lbs at 20 years old... and topped out at 303. If i had tried to do that journey with 300-400 calories over maintenance? I really believe i would have made it to about 185lbs at the top and kaput. Heck i got stuck at 194 for about a year and stuck at 208-212 for 2.5 years and i was eating so much food it was ridiculous. This is where drugs skewers everyones thoughts....If you have a 220lb high school offensive lineman who wants to someday make it to the pro's...he has to get to 260-290 for college football....he has pretty much one choice. He has to eat his way up there. its not going to happen with 300-400 calories over maintenance. Its the same thing in bodybuilding. If you are a 5'10" 185lb dude and want to be a massive contest winning superheavy...you need to be 250-260 peeled onstage....which means roughly 30-45 lbs over that in the offseason....that aint going to happen at 300-400 calories over maintenance at 185lbs. The greatest pipe dream you can sell in bodybuilding is that you can stay lean as all hell from 150 all the way up to 250. You can probably make a big dent in that trip if you want to just juice and GH the absolutely heck out of yourself to try to get there. If you feel a 5 trophy and having a heart attack going to the mailbox at 47 years of age is worth it....thats a choice you can make. So there really is only 2 routes you can take: A) Sauce the living heck out of yourself and look awesome all the way there but maybe find yourself with severe health problems in your 40's. B) Eat a large amount of clean bodybuilding food, look alot smoother and not as awesome and try to do the least amount of juice you can to get over every plateau.
Absolutely if you want to be massive then you do need to pound the calories my heaviest was 321lbs or 146kg but I’m also not 5ft 7 wish I was that would be outrageous in person but I’m 6ft 1 tall it wasn’t pretty at all but then I over diet looked great at 270 and then dnp and starvation kinda like Dorian saying in 92 he overdieted and didn’t look any better and 93 all that freaky mass was the mass built in 92 just without the over dieting

I always find dieting harder I can get huge scale weight quickly but then I can also loose 70-80 pounds in 6-8 weeks also it being harder not losing it to quick and if you see change stick with it but that mindset of suffering I always feel I need to suffer there’s suffering then there’s just losing all your gains
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Dante, since you're in here, I gotta pick your brain...

What's your opinion on any sort of maximum amount of protein that can be absorbed and utilized per meal? What do you think of protein consumption in the context of intermittent fasting, for instance? I know what my own experience has been, and that's that the timing is less relevant than just consuming enough protein, in general. Personally, it hasn't seemed to matter a whole lot - i.e. I can take in an average of 300g in two meals and everything seems hunky dorey - but I would love to hear your input on this.

I dont think this is going to answer your question the way you want me to but i will say this. I still help people from time to time (certain guys i used to train back in the day) and alot of them have different goals now....so when it comes to intermittent fasting i do the following with them because i think its highly important. You fast them directly after their strongest/best bodypart and the fast proceeds and happens on a day off. So for example lets say US Muscle's best bodypart was his back or his legs. You would do your normal offseason diet all week and then you (lets use legs)....you would train legs and immediately after legs for the next 24 hours you would fast and during that fast take in a good amount of water or flavored water. After at least 24 hours of that you would break the fast and start eating your offseason diet again.
Reasoning:
1) Its a strong bodypart (legs or back) and you would NOT want to fast after a bodypart that you are desperately trying to gain muscle with...and you will still gain on legs and back albeit slower but whose counting? They are already strong bodyparts for you.
2) You place the off day of training after this strong bodypart so your strength levels are not effected at all. As soon as you break the fast you go back to offseason eating and with the salt and water load you never have an ebb in your strength levels and your weights will not be effected in the least during the week. So lets say you train legs on tuesday morning and get done at 9 am. You fast immediately after legs and drink water/flavored water all day and overnight until at least 9 am and then you start chowing again in your regular offseason diet. You will load back up with water/salt/carbs so by the time you train again on thursday morning, your strength will not be impeded in the slightest
3) Anyone who tries this - this is what i promise you. You will never look as awesome in the offseason as you do after the end of that 24 hour fast. NEVER. Your waist will be sucked in the most it has ever been in the offseason. You will drop alot of water and be as lean and vascular as you have ever seen yourself in the offseason. And you will still make gains in muscle due to the offseason eating for most of the week but over weeks of time you will get see yourself get a leaner and leaner offseason look than you have ever had before.

I think you were talking more about a 2 meal 6 hour window of everyday intermittent fasting US Muscle but thats how i would push someone to try it (above). If you really wanted to push the envelope you could do that 2x a week with the other strong bodypart (day off)....but i would start someone out with it 1x a week to get them used to it and reacess

Again anyone who tries the above, tell me i wasnt telling the truth about the best look you have ever had in the offseason after that 24 hour fast (waist sucked in...will be a crazy vacuum, but not flat because you havent carb depleted all week, water will be completely off of you)
 

USMuscle9403

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And that was way more of an answer than I could have expected, thanks so much for that. Absolutely agree with you on the 24 hr fasts, in fact there are often days that are one meal only. Both the look and feel after any sort of short fast is always worth it, in my opinion.

I'll add that if I'm looking to add muscle, I'll increase both calories and meal frequency, however. Often it's just another meal added.
 

danieltx

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hahhah was just waaaiting to hear everyone and everything being said.
Perfect response, exactly what all of us who are there know. I knew I could count on you and Dante to inject real truth here.
The greatest pipe dream you can sell in bodybuilding is that you can stay lean as all hell from 150 all the way up to 250. You can probably make a big dent in that trip if you want to just juice and GH the absolutely heck out of yourself to try to get there. If you feel a 5 trophy and having a heart attack going to the mailbox at 47 years of age is worth it....thats a choice you can make. So there really is only 2 routes you can take: A) Sauce the living heck out of yourself and look awesome all the way there but maybe find yourself with severe health problems in your 40's. B) Eat a large amount of clean bodybuilding food, look alot smoother and not as awesome and try to do the least amount of juice you can to get over every plateau.
The 18-22-year-old boys come up to me at the gym and ask about building muscle and I always tell them to just eat, don't worry about getting fat, just do it, because putting on physique-changing muscle takes a lot of food whether you take anything or not. Take 9 months to get a little fat now and next summer take your pick at the pool party.

I'm glad Clarida was honest about his diet on the last page with the McDonald's and the mass gainer / ice cream / cookies before bed. I've posted before that I eat the same with a protein powder / ice cream / sunflower butter / cookies mix before bed when growing. Yeah you need the base diet of clean food, but if you really want to get huge you need those meals where you can consistently clear 2,000+ calories in a sitting.
 

warlock

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Perfect response, exactly what all of us who are there know. I knew I could count on you and Dante to inject real truth here.

The 18-22-year-old boys come up to me at the gym and ask about building muscle and I always tell them to just eat, don't worry about getting fat, just do it, because putting on physique-changing muscle takes a lot of food whether you take anything or not. Take 9 months to get a little fat now and next summer take your pick at the pool party.

I'm glad Clarida was honest about his diet on the last page with the McDonald's and the mass gainer / ice cream / cookies before bed. I've posted before that I eat the same with a protein powder / ice cream / sunflower butter / cookies mix before bed when growing. Yeah you need the base diet of clean food, but if you really want to get huge you need those meals where you can consistently clear 2,000+ calories in a sitting.

Is there a link to this thing Clarida did?
 

Dugbet

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Not if you think people can grow the biggest and fastest while eating around maintenance or completely clean.
Shawn Clarida competed around 170 he’s going to bulk to 225-230 do you think he’s not going slam down some food and put on some fat?

He is going to raise his contest weight a few more pounds (which to me is a mistake and will distort his freak physique even more, but that is the subject of another discussion). Clarida doesn't get fat in the off-season, no matter how many calories he eats or weight add to his frame. I think that's the point.
 

Dugbet

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A leveled 70cc of plain protein scoop is one value and a big rounded 70cc scoop is 5-7 more grams of plain protein. Put in 2 scoops and thats 10-15 more grams than they think they are taking in with that shake.....3 X a day is 30-45 grams more protein than they think they are taking in.

That is the reason why I like to weigh my protein powder, lol, I don't trust in the scoops
 

whacked

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No one's really discussed gastric motility which is one of the largest variables on how you respond to high protein.

I get constipated badly >100g protein/day.

Pisses me off. Used to consume 250/day 20 years ago. Over the years it’s just gotten to be a problem.

Magnesium, digestive enzymes to break it down, different types of fiber, probiotic.....none of these matter.
 

MR. BMJ

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I dont think this is going to answer your question the way you want me to but i will say this. I still help people from time to time (certain guys i used to train back in the day) and alot of them have different goals now....so when it comes to intermittent fasting i do the following with them because i think its highly important. You fast them directly after their strongest/best bodypart and the fast proceeds and happens on a day off. So for example lets say US Muscle's best bodypart was his back or his legs. You would do your normal offseason diet all week and then you (lets use legs)....you would train legs and immediately after legs for the next 24 hours you would fast and during that fast take in a good amount of water or flavored water. After at least 24 hours of that you would break the fast and start eating your offseason diet again.
Reasoning:
1) Its a strong bodypart (legs or back) and you would NOT want to fast after a bodypart that you are desperately trying to gain muscle with...and you will still gain on legs and back albeit slower but whose counting? They are already strong bodyparts for you.
2) You place the off day of training after this strong bodypart so your strength levels are not effected at all. As soon as you break the fast you go back to offseason eating and with the salt and water load you never have an ebb in your strength levels and your weights will not be effected in the least during the week. So lets say you train legs on tuesday morning and get done at 9 am. You fast immediately after legs and drink water/flavored water all day and overnight until at least 9 am and then you start chowing again in your regular offseason diet. You will load back up with water/salt/carbs so by the time you train again on thursday morning, your strength will not be impeded in the slightest
3) Anyone who tries this - this is what i promise you. You will never look as awesome in the offseason as you do after the end of that 24 hour fast. NEVER. Your waist will be sucked in the most it has ever been in the offseason. You will drop alot of water and be as lean and vascular as you have ever seen yourself in the offseason. And you will still make gains in muscle due to the offseason eating for most of the week but over weeks of time you will get see yourself get a leaner and leaner offseason look than you have ever had before.

I think you were talking more about a 2 meal 6 hour window of everyday intermittent fasting US Muscle but thats how i would push someone to try it (above). If you really wanted to push the envelope you could do that 2x a week with the other strong bodypart (day off)....but i would start someone out with it 1x a week to get them used to it and reacess

Again anyone who tries the above, tell me i wasnt telling the truth about the best look you have ever had in the offseason after that 24 hour fast (waist sucked in...will be a crazy vacuum, but not flat because you havent carb depleted all week, water will be completely off of you)

Interesting. Just for more clarification, after you train that body part (legs as used above as the strong muscle group), you go directly to a fast, and no post-workout meal? Have you tried having the post w/o meal, then go for the 24hr fast? Just wondering if that is something you have experimented with. Thanks!
 

DOGGCRAPP

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You could do it that way...but the reason i like it the above way

1) The post high intensity caloric afterburn where calories are burned at an enhanced rate after intense training for up to 14 hours (and sometimes beyond) I dont want anything counteracting/blunting that effect..... (Illl leave the thermic effect of food for the rest of the week)

2) I am trying to get people to get all their normal days meals in 24 hours after the fast....if they get done training at 9am on tuesday morning and then drive home and make breakfast and eat are they now at maybe 10:30am at the end of that meal? The 24 hour fast is no longer a 24 hour fast then because in my scenario...you would eat pre workout, and then train...and then immediately fast so there is 2 hours gone right there (and more importantly a depletion of glycogen) and then fasting. Your scenario there is a replenishing of glycogen stores and then fasting...and to go 24 hours you now are eating on Wednesday (again with replenished glycogen stores from that meal which works against the whole scenario)....eating at 10:30 ish am and you need to get in 6 meals the rest of the day before going to bed so you are ready for thursday mornings workout with no ebb in strength whatsoever (there wont be).

You can do it the way you suggested...its personal choice but if someone is choosing to do it that way because they are worried they arent going to gain muscle mass somehow in a strong bodypart.....I think its a worry that will be rectified/debunked within 4 weeks of trying it. (Theres alot to be said on how a human body responds from a tremendously depleted state)
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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You could do it that way...but the reason i like it the above way

1) The post high intensity caloric afterburn where calories are burned at an enhanced rate after intense training for up to 14 hours (and sometimes beyond) I dont want anything counteracting/blunting that effect..... (Illl leave the thermic effect of food for the rest of the week)

2) I am trying to get people to get all their normal days meals in 24 hours after the fast....if they get done training at 9am on tuesday morning and then drive home and make breakfast and eat are they now at maybe 10:30am at the end of that meal? The 24 hour fast is no longer a 24 hour fast then because in my scenario...you would eat pre workout, and then train...and then immediately fast so there is 2 hours gone right there (and more importantly a depletion of glycogen) and then fasting. Your scenario there is a replenishing of glycogen stores and then fasting...and to go 24 hours you now are eating on Wednesday (again with replenished glycogen stores from that meal which works against the whole scenario)....eating at 10:30 ish am and you need to get in 6 meals the rest of the day before going to bed so you are ready for thursday mornings workout with no ebb in strength whatsoever (there wont be).

You can do it the way you suggested...its personal choice but if someone is choosing to do it that way because they are worried they arent going to gain muscle mass somehow in a strong bodypart.....I think its a worry that will be rectified/debunked within 4 weeks of trying it. (Theres alot to be said on how a human body responds from a tremendously depleted state)
Gold, as per usual from you.
 

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