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Ultimate discussion - your thoughts on the cause of difference in BB from 1995-2005 t

hilly2008

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Interested in every ones thoughts n opinions on this. Could be a gd discussion.

I’ve copied the below from another thread to not clog it up with info not relevant to that thread

So ——————————————————



IMO, the reasons bodybuilders are bigger today than they were in the 80s and 90s are 1) Higher AAS dosages, 2) Insulin use, 3) Improved training schedules and workout plans, 4) improved diets, 5) improved supplementation (mostly intra-workout combined with insulin use), 6) High dose GH use[/QUOTE]


Was the post that got me thinking

———————————————————-

Ok he’s a good discussion for you that I don’t generally have even a solid answer based on my opinion.

Bodybuilders now - 2010-2018 are no bigger than 1990-2005 era I would say.

Steroids are arguably easier to get but much much more are UGL which means likely lower quality

Gh n insulin are just as available again tho lots of lower quality GH but one can get both

Training info is the same - people are in 2 camps as always - train more n higher volume - from lee priest n milos etc to Dorian doing low volume early days to heath /bonac/ Rhoden high volume more frequent to de Asher n couple others lower volume

Intra - milos started it - we have guys now that use n don’t use.

So my opinion - there isn’t much they didn’t have around that 1995-2005 era we don’t know

BB no bigger now they just don’t have that polished look.

I go round n round about n answer to this in my own head.

Interested in yours and others thoughts. Im actually going to copy this post n create a thread now.

———————————————————

My thoughts on possibilities

- in general most of that Era trained more frequently and did more actual work in the gym = a different look

Not necessarily more drugs in general but maybe now more ‘fat loss’ drugs are used meaning less cardio n less time in gym

- more artificial shite in supplements n foods etc from pre , Intra n shakes to calorie free sauces n so forth meaning we don’t get rid of as much fat


- more lower quality junk food available - so when we high carb or cheat it’s more trans fats n shite in our food - this is a defo for me. Second prep of this year I ate nothing fried or processed. My waist was smaller n look better.

Interested in every one thoughts [emoji123][emoji123][emoji123]


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little slice

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the cameras in the 90's were grainy as fuck




also more bodybuilders blowing out their waists trying to chase size and fullness onstage
 

thethinker48

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Better pool of talent in the 90s. A little different mindset too; size was put on the back burner to get better conditioning because you were trying to beat Dorian Yates; who left no plate unturned in that department. Late 90s Ronnie was also supremely conditioned, so you couldn't show up full and watery trying to beat him.

Yes there's freaks now as well, but the 90s was so damn stacked. The Nationals were full of future pros and Olympians all within the top 10.

Guys are bigger today (except compared to Ronnie really) overall, but conditioning isnt the same.

The same jazz for bodybuilding isnt there anymore now; freaks can make money just promoting themselves. Not having to kill themselves for a trophy now, or go into another division.

But man, have fun competing against Dorian, Levrone, Ronnie, Flex, Cormier, Nasser, SRay, Dillet...etc.

I do think (and I'll get shit for this [emoji5] ) that training heavy and progressive contributed massively to guys growing to their maximum size starting in the 90s. The look Coleman had much to do with his genetics, but also a lot to do with the kind of loads he put himself under and trained with. Both Flex and Ronnie had similar genetics (Ronnie's frame was bigger), but Ronnie looked like he was carved out of stone with density out of this world.

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hilly2008

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Better pool of talent in the 90s. A little different mindset too; size was put on the back burner to get better conditioning because you were trying to beat Dorian Yates; who left no plate unturned in that department. Late 90s Ronnie was also supremely conditioned, so you couldn't show up full and watery trying to beat him.

Yes there's freaks now as well, but the 90s was so damn stacked. The Nationals were full of future pros and Olympians all within the top 10.

Guys are bigger today (except compared to Ronnie really) overall, but conditioning isnt the same.

The same jazz for bodybuilding isnt there anymore now; freaks can make money just promoting themselves. Not having to kill themselves for a trophy now, or go into another division.

But man, have fun competing against Dorian, Levrone, Ronnie, Flex, Cormier, Nasser, SRay, Dillet...etc.

I do think (and I'll get shit for this [emoji5] ) that training heavy and progressive contributed massively to guys growing to their maximum size starting in the 90s. The look Coleman had much to do with his genetics, but also a lot to do with the kind of loads he put himself under and trained with. Both Flex and Ronnie had similar genetics (Ronnie's frame was bigger), but Ronnie looked like he was carved out of stone with density out of this world.

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Although i agree with all this and its a good post

If anything globally the pool is now bigger n we have genetic freaks coming from Europe n Kuwait etc Etc that bring new levels.

However still they don’t seem to represent that on stage condition we saw with the guys you mentioned.


I’m tempted to agree with the above n say allot yo do with the lighting at shows etc etc to a point. As dexter doesn’t look the same in pics now he did when stood with them.

That’s one thing that always stands out to me yet many don’t discuss when this subject is always brought up


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danieltx

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I think a big part of it has nothing to do with training, drugs, etc. - it's that so many more pro cards are given out now vs. 1995 - 2005.

Back then, it was literally only the elite of the elite who became pros. There were very few opportunities. To grow the sport, they've given out more and more pro cards in the last 20 years. This waters down the talent pool of pros - it's no longer the elite of the elite, it's those guys and people who are tiers below them.

This isn't taking anything away from modern day pros - the fact that you're successful enough to earn a pro card puts you much further ahead than most guys who seriously pursue bodybuilding will ever be. But it does make the pros look less polished, less genetically blessed, etc., when it's opened up to so many more people and not just the top fraction of 1%.
 

FK86

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Better pool of talent in the 90s. A little different mindset too; size was put on the back burner to get better conditioning because you were trying to beat Dorian Yates; who left no plate unturned in that department. Late 90s Ronnie was also supremely conditioned, so you couldn't show up full and watery trying to beat him.

Yes there's freaks now as well, but the 90s was so damn stacked. The Nationals were full of future pros and Olympians all within the top 10.

Guys are bigger today (except compared to Ronnie really) overall, but conditioning isnt the same.

The same jazz for bodybuilding isnt there anymore now; freaks can make money just promoting themselves. Not having to kill themselves for a trophy now, or go into another division.

But man, have fun competing against Dorian, Levrone, Ronnie, Flex, Cormier, Nasser, SRay, Dillet...etc.

I do think (and I'll get shit for this [emoji5] ) that training heavy and progressive contributed massively to guys growing to their maximum size starting in the 90s. The look Coleman had much to do with his genetics, but also a lot to do with the kind of loads he put himself under and trained with. Both Flex and Ronnie had similar genetics (Ronnie's frame was bigger), but Ronnie looked like he was carved out of stone with density out of this world.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Agree all around. I said this in the Olympia thread, these guys are still coming in at <5% body fat, and yet they can't get this conditioned. The look is just straight up *different.*

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUJRqPyBWas"]1991 NPC Jr. Nationals - YouTube[/ame]

Coleman looked way better when he was "smaller." I always hear that his 2001 ASC physique is considered his best, but I think it's the '99 Olympia prejudging version.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhZT8l9Lmjs"]RONNIE COLEMAN 1999 MR OLYMPIA PREJUDGING - YouTube[/ame]
 

psychor

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Agree all around. I said this in the Olympia thread, these guys are still coming in at <5% body fat, and yet they can't get this conditioned. The look is just straight up *different.*

1991 NPC Jr. Nationals - YouTube

Coleman looked way better when he was "smaller." I always hear that his 2001 ASC physique is considered his best, but I think it's the '99 Olympia prejudging version.

RONNIE COLEMAN 1999 MR OLYMPIA PREJUDGING - YouTube


No matter how many times you've seen Ronnie, he STILL make you say WOW, and look on in awe! Even if you hadn't of planned on working out that day, after watching him you have a sudden urge to just lift something...anything!Lol

As to why I think the current bodybuilders, for the most part, don't "look" the same? I'd have to say genetics is probably the biggest factor.

Training styles is a little harder to debate because today's bodybuilders also still train intensely using most of the same equipment and free weights. Sets and reps are the same for the most part also, to each his own.

In the end, today's guys tend to look more "watery" or not as hard/grainy and trying to look that big, as opposed to yesteryears guys actually having that dense actual muscle tissue creating that hard look when dieted down.

Thanks for sharing!
 

johnjuanb1

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Better pool of talent in the 90s. A little different mindset too; size was put on the back burner to get better conditioning because you were trying to beat Dorian Yates; who left no plate unturned in that department. Late 90s Ronnie was also supremely conditioned, so you couldn't show up full and watery trying to beat him.

Yes there's freaks now as well, but the 90s was so damn stacked. The Nationals were full of future pros and Olympians all within the top 10.

Guys are bigger today (except compared to Ronnie really) overall, but conditioning isnt the same.

The same jazz for bodybuilding isnt there anymore now; freaks can make money just promoting themselves. Not having to kill themselves for a trophy now, or go into another division.

But man, have fun competing against Dorian, Levrone, Ronnie, Flex, Cormier, Nasser, SRay, Dillet...etc.

I do think (and I'll get shit for this [emoji5] ) that training heavy and progressive contributed massively to guys growing to their maximum size starting in the 90s. The look Coleman had much to do with his genetics, but also a lot to do with the kind of loads he put himself under and trained with. Both Flex and Ronnie had similar genetics (Ronnie's frame was bigger), but Ronnie looked like he was carved out of stone with density out of this world.

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I completely agree. There was a better genetic pool of bodybuilders in the 90’s. Ronnie, Flex, Shawn Ray, Nassar, Dorian, Dillet, etc.
 

Explorerspl

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Since late 90s until today they push more for size and fullness than conditioning and proportion.

I don't think AAS doses have changed at all but more so insulin/GH have probably tripled if not more since early 90s
 

maldorf

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Since late 90s until today they push more for size and fullness than conditioning and proportion.

I don't think AAS doses have changed at all but more so insulin/GH have probably tripled if not more since early 90s

I do think the doses of AAS have gone up considerably too. Guys taking several grams of testosterone and or tren, not something that was even being rumored back in the 80s or 90s.


GH used to be only available from cadaver pituitary glands, so it was really rare and expensive. We have lots of peptides out now too.
 

weltweite

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I have heard a rumor that the diuretic usage was far more extreme back in the 90s than now... With bodybuilders dying (Munzer etc.) or freezing on stage (Dillet), etc.

As someone said, cameras were a little different back then too.
I will say lighting was very different in some shows than now.

I also think the 90s pros built their bodies up without much insulin in the 80s... so they had less fat droplets composing their muscle tissue and more striations/grain with thinner skin over time.
They took GH/slin to keep up with Dorian in the 90s. (Yes I have heard mentzer used cadaver GH and stuff in the 80s) but by then, it wasn't their entire bodybuilding career.

Example of lighting and picture quality. I remember Bob Cicherillo was 100% convinced it was photoshopped until someone found the video

MarcusRuhl.jpg
 

Fit2Serve

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The difference is:
-MUCH higher doses of AAS nowadays
-year round use of high dose and/or blast and then cruise on 1gm kind of thing is the norm
-insulin and gh are in the mix everywhere. seems everyone has access to em whether needed or not

The BIGGEST difference tho by FAR that actually is the reason for the reasons i mentioned above......the INTERNET and proliferation of message boards that gave our niche crowd the ability to communicate and share info. THAT is the biggest diff. Most all if not all differences stem from that
-F2S
 

little slice

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lol.. let's be real



the difference is guys chasing size and trying to be the biggest mass monsters onstage.


they pound down food before stepping onstage trying to be completely full..


condition isn't as rewarded as it used to be.... but guys are still coming in shredded.


i think guys trained harder and dieted harder back then as well (with the exception of Paul Dillet).


now guys are too afraid to lose size and fullness to get on the treadmill for 2 hours a day.



case in point, the 212 guys are coming in great.
 

Fit2Serve

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lol.. let's be real



the difference is guys chasing size and trying to be the biggest mass monsters onstage.


they pound down food before stepping onstage trying to be completely full..


condition isn't as rewarded as it used to be.... but guys are still coming in shredded.


i think guys trained harder and dieted harder back then as well (with the exception of Paul Dillet).


now guys are too afraid to lose size and fullness to get on the treadmill for 2 hours a day.



case in point, the 212 guys are coming in great.

shut up Slice. stop making so much sense.....

EDIT: makes ya wonder if there was weight cap for mr o would it change physwiques that we see now....
2nd EDIT: i would never wanna put a cap on ronnie coleman esque gains and mind blowing size tho.... 212 is a cool experiement but the open man thats really where ya see crazy shit
-F
 
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Elvia1023

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lol.. let's be real



the difference is guys chasing size and trying to be the biggest mass monsters onstage.


they pound down food before stepping onstage trying to be completely full..


condition isn't as rewarded as it used to be.... but guys are still coming in shredded.


i think guys trained harder and dieted harder back then as well (with the exception of Paul Dillet).


now guys are too afraid to lose size and fullness to get on the treadmill for 2 hours a day.



case in point, the 212 guys are coming in great.

You hit the nail on the head. I am going out now but will say it's a combination of factors. But the main reason is guys have to be as big as possible and with that comes the hgh and insulin doses. Guys are blown up like balloons these days. They are carb loading on ridiculous amounts before shows to be as full as possible. In the past they came in wanting to be big but condition was the most important element.

They are all scared of being too small these days... size is everything. Even guys like Ramy who would be the biggest anyway is coming in out of shape because mentally they can't suck down and suffer to get in 90's condition. Phil Heath is a freak but comes in big/full every year now when he should come in as conditioned as possible and blow everyone away. They are all full of insulin, hgh and seo with some of them overdoing things.

It's not that we suddenly have a drop in the gene pool. Look how good some of the classic physique guys are starting to look. Look at some of the bodybuilders outside of the IFBB (Asia etc) who come in nasty shredded. I do partly disagree about the 212 guys though. That was the case but these days they are just as bad if not worse. They have the weight cap so they are trying to be as big as possible for 212. Many weigh in at 212 and then do some crazy loading protocols and weigh 15-20 pounds more in a day. Insulin is abused these days. Obviously all drugs are but if I had to state the main drug reason for the change in look it would be hgh and insulin.
 

VaginaBoob89

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There were lucrative financial contracts that were largely given to pro show winners. Now there are far less lucrative contracts that are given to the best social media users. Conditioning and shape are less rewarded compared with before, size more rewarded.

The top pros are about as good now as in the 90s, but the average has gone way down simply because there are so many more pro cards.


That's basically it.
 

hilly2008

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You hit the nail on the head. I am going out now but will say it's a combination of factors. But the main reason is guys have to be as big as possible and with that comes the hgh and insulin doses. Guys are blown up like balloons these days. They are carb loading on ridiculous amounts before shows to be as full as possible. In the past they came in wanting to be big but condition was the most important element.



They are all scared of being too small these days... size is everything. Even guys like Ramy who would be the biggest anyway is coming in out of shape because mentally they can't suck down and suffer to get in 90's condition. Phil Heath is a freak but comes in big/full every year now when he should come in as conditioned as possible and blow everyone away. They are all full of insulin, hgh and seo with some of them overdoing things.



It's not that we suddenly have a drop in the gene pool. Look how good some of the classic physique guys are starting to look. Look at some of the bodybuilders outside of the IFBB (Asia etc) who come in nasty shredded. I do partly disagree about the 212 guys though. That was the case but these days they are just as bad if not worse. They have the weight cap so they are trying to be as big as possible for 212. Many weigh in at 212 and then do some crazy loading protocols and weigh 15-20 pounds more in a day. Insulin is abused these days. Obviously all drugs are but if I had to state the main drug reason for the change in look it would be hgh and insulin.



Agreed with all.

However I can’t imagine many use more slin than milos did. I’ve seen his protocols first hand.

Yet his condition n look on stage was on par with best of the best in them days


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Elvia1023

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Agreed with all.

However I can’t imagine many use more slin than milos did. I’ve seen his protocols first hand.

Yet his condition n look on stage was on par with best of the best in them days


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I agree. I wasn't blaming just slin for the change that would be stupid. There are 101 factors in play. I think diets are the main one. But slin and hgh definitely influence things for many people. Some bodybuilders are so insulin resistant from years of abuse it only adds to a certain look we have in our head (distended guts). Then with all the food (usually bland food void of nutrients) it only worsens things over time. This is very complex though and again I am not stating it's just due to slin and hgh. I had distention issues long before using either of those drugs for example. So I am sure many 250-300 pound bodybuilders will be exactly the same.

I have seen his protocols as well. 80-100iu insulin per day pre and post workout with 2 daily sessions. But that is just one way to use insulin and is extremely effective because they are using rapid acting slin when they are training/active and they are using high volume training. Many people don't use insulin that way. Others use 100iu lantus and take big shots of hgh through the day for example and eat around the clock whilst training 1 hour per day. A bit like Milos's loading creatine (could be 80g per day) in most of his peak weeks. It goes against the standard results and side effects of what many other people notice. Just like if you can take large amounts of adrol and get bigger and tigther or blow up full of water... same drug but different results/side effects depending upon other factors.

The biggest factor is the mindset these days because of the judging in open bodybuilding. If 20 years ago the judges said we want bb's to be as conditioned as possible with no distention and were strict I am sure we would have a different look. But Dorian came, then Ronnie and even when they were off with some distention they would still win. Jay Cutler had to get bigger and bigger to compete with Ronnie then he finally took over and so on. It has changed an odd year and even this one but that was just because so many of the big guys were off this year so they had to give it to Rhoden.

There are many reasons but I think the main ones are obvious and were mentioned by Jeff the other day (your opening post) and again by Little Slice above. Although I disagree people don't train as hard these days as I think they do. They are just eating differently and generally not suffering as much. All I see on IG are big pro's having burger refeeds, poptarts etc every 3 days during prep to prevent them losing fullness for example. Very few are starving themselves and suffering to get as conditioned as possible.
 
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