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Using strong orals during workout days only to increase progressive overload.

Correct. Just because something has a short half life does not mean it has not altered your biology and physiology.

If that wasn’t the case then we could all just use Anavar pre workout 5 days a week and not need any PCT after a cycle because our hormones and testosterone would be untouched.

Just because you only drink on the weekend doesn’t mean it doesn’t impact the rest of your week and physiology days to a week after.

Just saying… 🤷‍♂️

Carry on debating. 😊
This lol. It's like saying bro splits don't work because stimulating a muscle once a week does nothing. Or intra shakes are worthless because you don't take them daily.. slin too lol

Curious what people think.... for health and growth both...

Larger dose of orals for shorter or lower dose for longer?

100 mg drol Ed 4 weeks
50mg drol Ed for 8 weeks
100mg drol Ed (preworkout) for 8 weeks

Which will give better results? Which will be less harmful to health?
 
Some people don’t believe orals will increase muscle size unless taken everyday to keep blood levels stable. They look at it from a nitrogen retention point of view, instead of a progressive overload point of view. But what good are strong orals for building muscle if you can only take them 1-2 weeks before having to give them up altogether due to them building up in the body—causing horrible side effects. Taking strong orals less frequently with a good long acting test base seems to be the most sustainable way for many to make continued gains with strong orals because they can use them for much longer durations without all the side effects.
I can attest to this, I was truly ignorant and had that mindset of taking them every day..yeah I was wrong.
 
Correct. Just because something has a short half life does not mean it has not altered your biology and physiology.
There is a confusion of let's call it receptor mediated half life activity like albuterol or ephedrine and genomic level half life activity of steroids. The effective activity of the former correlates with the blood half life, whereas the latter is longer because it is working mainly through nuclear transcription.

A good example is dexamethasone. Plasma half life of 4-6 hours, but a biological half life of 30-50 hours.
 
There is a confusion of let's call it receptor mediated half life activity like albuterol or ephedrine and genomic level half life activity of steroids. The effective activity of the former correlates with the blood half life, whereas the latter is longer because it is working mainly through nuclear transcription.

A good example is dexamethasone. Plasma half life of 4-6 hours, but a biological half life of 30-50 hours.
I’m genuinely curious- what is your background? Either you have one hell of a science background or you’re using the hell out of ChatGPT to write your post. I say that respectfully as a research guy. 😂

But I agree with you and it’s unfortunate that the additional impact or level you’re referencing hasn’t been studied more. Just another flaw in our “imperfect” medical research system. Lol
 
There is a confusion of let's call it receptor mediated half life activity like albuterol or ephedrine and genomic level half life activity of steroids. The effective activity of the former correlates with the blood half life, whereas the latter is longer because it is working mainly through nuclear transcription.

A good example is dexamethasone. Plasma half life of 4-6 hours, but a biological half life of 30-50 hours.
Can you explain a bit more what this means? I feel like both AAS and ephedrine would be effective if taken EOD as ephedrine is a thermogenic. But it sounds like you do believe intermittent oral usage is effective?
 
I’m genuinely curious- what is your background? Either you have one hell of a science background or you’re using the hell out of ChatGPT to write your post. I say that respectfully as a research guy. 😂

But I agree with you and it’s unfortunate that the additional impact or level you’re referencing hasn’t been studied more. Just another flaw in our “imperfect” medical research system. Lol

I’m genuinely curious- what is your background? Either you have one hell of a science background or you’re using the hell out of ChatGPT to write your post. I say that respectfully as a research guy. 😂

But I agree with you and it’s unfortunate that the additional impact or level you’re referencing hasn’t been studied more. Just another flaw in our “imperfect” medical research system. Lol
I have a degree in Microbiology. As an aside, where did you train with Toney Freeman? I used to see him at the Forum in Alpharetta.
 
orals are good for beginners . But for me I don’t gain benefits for them no more especially anadrol just recks my appetite and makes me feel sick over all
 
I have a degree in Microbiology. As an aside, where did you train with Toney Freeman? I used to see him at the Forum in Alpharetta.

I’ll let everyone else debate the whole orals working pre workout vs placebo (it’s a real thing lol).

But @emeric delczeg sent me a bottle of EcdyGrowth with my MMB 750 that I bought.

Not going to lie… I didn’t expect much. But holy shit… I gave it a week and dropped other things to make sure it wasn’t just “placebo”. That shit works. It’s like Anavar and Adderal had a baby. I’m a research guy so checked the literature and saw the study comparing it to dbol and fully can see why.

I’ll let Emeric chime in with the science and “how” as I’m still trying to get up to speed on it myself. But all you guys wanting a “boost” for your lifts pre workout- this shit does that.
The story behind the Ecdygrowth, by the way, same respond from all users, example: Robby Robinson, Eddie Robinson, Danny Padila, Tony Freeman, Vinny Galanti , this is just a few.

After more than 25 years of research and clinical studies, Rhaponticum carthamoides radix et rhizome has been added to the Official Russian Pharmacopoeia that recommends “the herb for increasing work efficiency, athletic performance and recovery after muscular workloads”. Rhaponticum carthamoides extract were included to the most popular Russian beverages such as “Baikal” and “Sayani”. Elite Russian and Bulgarian athletes have long used Rhaponticum extract to stimulate muscle growth.

In the USA Is was circulated on the underground market for a long time, till 2001 when Fitness Enterprise (Emeric Delczeg ) partnered up with Dr. Zakir Ramazanov and introduced to USA Fitness Industry market as a dietary supplement, under the name of Ecdy-Kito, a bland of Ecdysterone and Humanofort.

Phytochemistry: Key active constituents responsible for specific anabolic effect of Rhaponticum carthamoides is a mixture of compounds called, "levseins". Levseins represents a complex of more than 10 ecdysterones including 20-beta-ecdysterone, makisterone C, 24-dehydromakisterone A, carthamosterone, polypodyne B and ajugasterone C. Ecdysteroids from Leuzea carthamoides

J.-P.GiraultR.LafontaE.VargaaZs.HajduaI.HerkeaK.Szendreib

Pharmacology: According to Russian researchers the Leuzea extract stimulates muscle protein synthesis by increasing the activity of the polyribosomes. Polyribosomes are the cellular compartments where the actual protein synthesis takes place. Researchers extracted and purified various ecdysteroids from Leuzea and found that the ecdysteroids increased the mass of the developing quails in a dose-dependent manner, with the rate of increase proportional to the ecdysteroids content. It was evident that the plethora of growth-promoting, vitamin-like effects induced by Leuzea is mediated by ecdysteroids. However, it is important to point out that the mixture of ecdysterones was found to be responsible for enhancement of muscle protein synthesis. The research indicated that the whole extract of Rhaponticum carthamoides containing mixture of levseins possess much superior physiological activity compared with the activity of purified individual constituents (Seifulla 1999). Results indicated that 0.5mg/kg body weight is the optimal dosage of 20-beta-ecdysterone in any sport and performance formula. In back-to-back studies with the Rhaponticum extract was actually superior to synthetic steroids like Dianabol at inducing endurance and muscle cell growth (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992)

The examination of the difference in action between beta-ecdysterone and synthetic steroids revealed that the latter go directly to the nucleus of a cell to tell the blueprint, the DNA, to produce more RNA. Then the RNA tells the ribosome to produce more protein. Beta-ecdysterone, on the other hand, goes directly to the ribosome and increases what is called translation, the rate at which new protein is being made (Syrov et al. 1984).

Standardization: There are about 120 phyto-ecdysterones known, from more than 80 species of plants (Lafont 1998). Among more than dozed plant species containing ecdysterones only Rhaponticum carthamoides extract undergone through a complete human clinical trials and phytochemical research. Research pointed out that superior anabolic effect of Rhaponticum carthamoides extract is determined by content of all levseins (ecdysterones) rather than a single 20-beta-ecdysterone, which is abundant in plants outside of Rhaponticum genus.

Toxicity: From more than 80 species of plants containing phyto-ecdysterones only Leuzea extract was shown very safe for humans at even high dosages. The extract did not produce mortality after administration of very large doses (up to 4 g/kg). After administration of relatively high doses above 10 g/kg, there occurred some functional changes in CNS, manifested by weakening of some reflexes, a decrease in muscle tone, an increase of the narcotic effects of chloral hydrate and a tendency towards impaired learning and memory. It is always a good idea to remember that taking “more is not always good” for you.



EcdyGrowth Highlights & Insights

Contains 200mg 20.2% standardized Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides extract per capsule: Ecdysterone Improves translation to boost protein synthesis, atp and carb storage in muscle, liver and heart tissue and boosts red-blood cell count while scavenging free radicals.

Humanofort: Contains all the natural FGF (fibroblast growth factors).

Research credits FGF with essentially reprogramming adult stem cells and amino acids in the body (which make up its natural repair tools). Humanofort interact with the process of digestion and provide an assistive stimulus to the Gastrointestinal Hormones Gastrin, Cholecystokinin, Secretin, Ghrelin, Motilin in such a fashion that through process molecular biology they stimulate the rate of uptake of all amino acids by a calculated margin of 18% for its half-life of four minutes by standards and deviations. These may be clinically tested by means of blood sampling.

Why EcdyGrowth ? Most all other ecdysterone supplements contain only simple powders from China, made from totally different plants (Cyanotis Vaga, for instance) or synthetic ecdysterone "isolates". In comparison, these types of ecdy are cheap, unrefined, and generally ineffectual. Worst of all, quite a number of these products falsely (mis)apply the positive studies conducted specifically on Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides .

"Only Rhaponticum has undergone complete human clinical trials and study. Research pointed out the superior anabolic effect of Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract rather than single 20-beta-ecdysterone, which is abundant in plants outside the Rhaponticum genus. Use of 20-beta-ecdysterone content, as an indication of superiority of one isolate over another is just the simple old attempt to substitute original Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract with inferior plant extract."

● "Research indicates that the whole extract of Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides containing all levseins (representing a complex of 10 ecdysterones) exerts a much superior physiological activity compared with individual constituents." (Seifulla 1999)

● Leuzea Extract considerably increases the working capacity of tired skeletal muscles and increases their content of glycogen, ATP and Creatine Phosphate (Petrov et al. 1984).

● "The working capacity of athletes grew by 10 to 15% in the Seifulla trial of 1993."

● "In back-to-back studies with animals, the Leuzea Rhaponticum extract was superior to synthetic anabolics like Dianabol at inducing endurance and muscle cell growth." (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992)

Dr. Syrov has repeatedly demonstrated in clinical trials (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992) superior increases in, specifically, endurance and protein synthesis verses 'D-Bol' (Dianabol). His studies and others further illustrate a total lack of associated negative side-effects and a host of health promoting benefits.

 
Can you explain a bit more what this means? I feel like both AAS and ephedrine would be effective if taken EOD as ephedrine is a thermogenic. But it sounds like you do believe intermittent oral usage is effective?
Both are "effective" in that you are stimulating an effect that is greater than what would occur without, but I believe the effects of steroids last longer than their plasma half life due to their actions on nuclear transcription (enhancing/inhibiting protein creation at the genomic level). How long these pathways stay elevated or repressed I don't know but based on what is known about glucocorticoid activity, it's longer than the plasma half life.
 
The story behind the Ecdygrowth, by the way, same respond from all users, example: Robby Robinson, Eddie Robinson, Danny Padila, Tony Freeman, Vinny Galanti , this is just a few.

After more than 25 years of research and clinical studies, Rhaponticum carthamoides radix et rhizome has been added to the Official Russian Pharmacopoeia that recommends “the herb for increasing work efficiency, athletic performance and recovery after muscular workloads”. Rhaponticum carthamoides extract were included to the most popular Russian beverages such as “Baikal” and “Sayani”. Elite Russian and Bulgarian athletes have long used Rhaponticum extract to stimulate muscle growth.

In the USA Is was circulated on the underground market for a long time, till 2001 when Fitness Enterprise (Emeric Delczeg ) partnered up with Dr. Zakir Ramazanov and introduced to USA Fitness Industry market as a dietary supplement, under the name of Ecdy-Kito, a bland of Ecdysterone and Humanofort.

Phytochemistry: Key active constituents responsible for specific anabolic effect of Rhaponticum carthamoides is a mixture of compounds called, "levseins". Levseins represents a complex of more than 10 ecdysterones including 20-beta-ecdysterone, makisterone C, 24-dehydromakisterone A, carthamosterone, polypodyne B and ajugasterone C. Ecdysteroids from Leuzea carthamoides

J.-P.GiraultR.LafontaE.VargaaZs.HajduaI.HerkeaK.Szendreib

Pharmacology: According to Russian researchers the Leuzea extract stimulates muscle protein synthesis by increasing the activity of the polyribosomes. Polyribosomes are the cellular compartments where the actual protein synthesis takes place. Researchers extracted and purified various ecdysteroids from Leuzea and found that the ecdysteroids increased the mass of the developing quails in a dose-dependent manner, with the rate of increase proportional to the ecdysteroids content. It was evident that the plethora of growth-promoting, vitamin-like effects induced by Leuzea is mediated by ecdysteroids. However, it is important to point out that the mixture of ecdysterones was found to be responsible for enhancement of muscle protein synthesis. The research indicated that the whole extract of Rhaponticum carthamoides containing mixture of levseins possess much superior physiological activity compared with the activity of purified individual constituents (Seifulla 1999). Results indicated that 0.5mg/kg body weight is the optimal dosage of 20-beta-ecdysterone in any sport and performance formula. In back-to-back studies with the Rhaponticum extract was actually superior to synthetic steroids like Dianabol at inducing endurance and muscle cell growth (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992)

The examination of the difference in action between beta-ecdysterone and synthetic steroids revealed that the latter go directly to the nucleus of a cell to tell the blueprint, the DNA, to produce more RNA. Then the RNA tells the ribosome to produce more protein. Beta-ecdysterone, on the other hand, goes directly to the ribosome and increases what is called translation, the rate at which new protein is being made (Syrov et al. 1984).

Standardization: There are about 120 phyto-ecdysterones known, from more than 80 species of plants (Lafont 1998). Among more than dozed plant species containing ecdysterones only Rhaponticum carthamoides extract undergone through a complete human clinical trials and phytochemical research. Research pointed out that superior anabolic effect of Rhaponticum carthamoides extract is determined by content of all levseins (ecdysterones) rather than a single 20-beta-ecdysterone, which is abundant in plants outside of Rhaponticum genus.

Toxicity: From more than 80 species of plants containing phyto-ecdysterones only Leuzea extract was shown very safe for humans at even high dosages. The extract did not produce mortality after administration of very large doses (up to 4 g/kg). After administration of relatively high doses above 10 g/kg, there occurred some functional changes in CNS, manifested by weakening of some reflexes, a decrease in muscle tone, an increase of the narcotic effects of chloral hydrate and a tendency towards impaired learning and memory. It is always a good idea to remember that taking “more is not always good” for you.



EcdyGrowth Highlights & Insights

Contains 200mg 20.2% standardized Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides extract per capsule: Ecdysterone Improves translation to boost protein synthesis, atp and carb storage in muscle, liver and heart tissue and boosts red-blood cell count while scavenging free radicals.

Humanofort: Contains all the natural FGF (fibroblast growth factors).

Research credits FGF with essentially reprogramming adult stem cells and amino acids in the body (which make up its natural repair tools). Humanofort interact with the process of digestion and provide an assistive stimulus to the Gastrointestinal Hormones Gastrin, Cholecystokinin, Secretin, Ghrelin, Motilin in such a fashion that through process molecular biology they stimulate the rate of uptake of all amino acids by a calculated margin of 18% for its half-life of four minutes by standards and deviations. These may be clinically tested by means of blood sampling.

Why EcdyGrowth ? Most all other ecdysterone supplements contain only simple powders from China, made from totally different plants (Cyanotis Vaga, for instance) or synthetic ecdysterone "isolates". In comparison, these types of ecdy are cheap, unrefined, and generally ineffectual. Worst of all, quite a number of these products falsely (mis)apply the positive studies conducted specifically on Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides .

"Only Rhaponticum has undergone complete human clinical trials and study. Research pointed out the superior anabolic effect of Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract rather than single 20-beta-ecdysterone, which is abundant in plants outside the Rhaponticum genus. Use of 20-beta-ecdysterone content, as an indication of superiority of one isolate over another is just the simple old attempt to substitute original Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract with inferior plant extract."

● "Research indicates that the whole extract of Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides containing all levseins (representing a complex of 10 ecdysterones) exerts a much superior physiological activity compared with individual constituents." (Seifulla 1999)

● Leuzea Extract considerably increases the working capacity of tired skeletal muscles and increases their content of glycogen, ATP and Creatine Phosphate (Petrov et al. 1984).

● "The working capacity of athletes grew by 10 to 15% in the Seifulla trial of 1993."

● "In back-to-back studies with animals, the Leuzea Rhaponticum extract was superior to synthetic anabolics like Dianabol at inducing endurance and muscle cell growth." (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992)

Dr. Syrov has repeatedly demonstrated in clinical trials (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992) superior increases in, specifically, endurance and protein synthesis verses 'D-Bol' (Dianabol). His studies and others further illustrate a total lack of associated negative side-effects and a host of health promoting benefits.
The anabolic activity of ecdysterone is pretty conclusively through its estrogen-beta receptor activity. ER-beta is well known to be anabolic. The problem with ecdysterone is oral bioavailability.

 
I have a degree in Microbiology. As an aside, where did you train with Toney Freeman? I used to see him at the Forum in Alpharetta.
Very cool. Actually glad it wasn’t chatGPT as it means we have more knowledgeable guys on here. 😊

He used to train at La Fitness in Woodstock which is where I trained with him. He just recently moved back out to Roswell from Buford.
 
I’ll let everyone else debate the whole orals working pre workout vs placebo (it’s a real thing lol).

But @emeric delczeg sent me a bottle of EcdyGrowth with my MMB 750 that I bought.

Not going to lie… I didn’t expect much. But holy shit… I gave it a week and dropped other things to make sure it wasn’t just “placebo”. That shit works. It’s like Anavar and Adderal had a baby. I’m a research guy so checked the literature and saw the study comparing it to dbol and fully can see why.

I’ll let Emeric chime in with the science and “how” as I’m still trying to get up to speed on it myself. But all you guys wanting a “boost” for your lifts pre workout- this shit does that.
Yeah, the drug being active is only part of it. Once the signal for growth is turned on you don't need a steady stream of the drug for this to happen.
 
but test prop has a half-life of over nearly 96 hours, so why wouldn't injections every other day work in his case?
Where did you read 96 hours? I’m not disagreeing about the MWF effectiveness, but 96 hours seems excessive for propionate

 
Of course orals would be utter useless for increasing muscle size if you don't take them according to their half-lives. Just like any steroid, take test prop 3 times per week and see if you will gain shit.

Half life =/= residence time of receptor-ligand complex.​

 
orals are good for beginners . But for me I don’t gain benefits for them no more especially anadrol just recks my appetite and makes me feel sick over all
Are you mentally handicapped?
 
Where did you read 96 hours? I’m not disagreeing about the MWF effectiveness, but 96 hours seems excessive for propionate

The mean life is 96 hours or 4 days. The half life is generally only up to 48 hours.

Peak vs how long it stays in your blood and system.
 
If orals don't work preworkout then orals don't work at all? U eat it and your body processes it and it does what it's supposed to do. So whether youre taking it every day or every other it's still creating a response in your body being anabolic or stimulation it's still doing that whether you take it for 4 weeks every day or 3 days a week. Of course u aren't getting the build up and higher concentration with less peaks but the effects are still happening just my think

I’m genuinely curious- what is your background? Either you have one hell of a science background or you’re using the hell out of ChatGPT to write your post. I say that respectfully as a research guy. 😂

But I agree with you and it’s unfortunate that the additional impact or level you’re referencing hasn’t been studied more. Just another flaw in our “imperfect” medical research system. Lol
I do have a background in Biochem. You can the posts from some uneducated people by the way they just type their posts and the moronic explanations they offer. They don't obviously understand why longer cycles are needed to achieve maximum results and they forget that only when the metabolites of that specific steroid has left the system is when the actual effects occur. Too many uneducated people on here, have no clue how AAS really work. The utter ignorance of some of these posts is laughable. Yes lets do 300mgs of an X oral every week and were going to blow up or get so strong LOL I"m done debating this issue. Orals before workout make you stronger LOL by all means. Take your orals only pre workout LOL
 
Many of us only workout 3-4 days per week. Likewise, most of us feel lethargic and develop high blood pressure within just a few days of taking strong orals like (anadrol, superdrol, and dbol) every day. Therefore, it makes sense to take strong orals only on workout days (e.g., MWF) a couple of hours pre workout to increase progressive overload—which leads to muscle hypertrophy. If we can lift heavier loads due to the extra cellular water in our muscles from taking orals on just MWF—then it will build more muscle over time. After all, we build the most muscles when we first start training because it’s when we make the most strength gains.

This is the only way i use orals and the only real value i see in them. The more weight you can lift, the more muscle you will be able to build, period. It is exponentially more beneficial to keep your liver functioning intact throughout a cycle than to keep orals active in your system.

Let the oils keep blood hormone levels consistent throughout the week and orals for the CNS boost preworkout.
 
Some people don’t believe orals will increase muscle size unless taken everyday to keep blood levels stable. They look at it from a nitrogen retention point of view, instead of a progressive overload point of view. But what good are strong orals for building muscle if you can only take them 1-2 weeks before having to give them up altogether due to them building up in the body—causing horrible side effects. Taking strong orals less frequently with a good long acting test base seems to be the most sustainable way for many to make continued gains with strong orals because they can use them for much longer durations without all the side effects.

Another thing is, for ACCURATELY dosed gear, even something like 50mg of adrol or dbol is a lot, and that seems to be the min dose most dudes are taking. There is a reason the actual pharmacy grade dbols and winstrols would come in 5mg tabs. Dudes overdo it and wonder why their liver is shot in a couple weeks, i know i can pop 25mg of adrol and get a fucking pop out of it. Will it make me as strong as 50mg? No, but what good is that if i feel too shitty to have a good workout and can only run it for 2 weeks instead of 4?

The best results i have ever gotten from any aas was microdosing injectable sdrol at 5mg pre workout.
 

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