VANDERS training principles...

[MR.BICEPS]

I mean no offense to anyone on this board in regards to what I am about to say. So please dont take this wrong. Everyone on this board probably knows how to train effectively by now.

However I am still convinced after 25 years of training that VANDERS routine which is more volume than many is still the best route to go for the majority in terms of building quality mass. I keep hearing were 12 sets once per week is overtraining and such but I think thats insane. I just dont see how 12 sets once per week could overtrain anyone on or off of steroids for that matter.


12 sets per bodypart once per week is a cake walk compared to the routines I did back in the 80's. I was hittin geach body part for 15 sets twice a week thanks to Arnold. Come to think of it no has had biceps or a chest like Arnold did back in his prime...

I keep hearing all this good stuff about DOGCRAPP training. Sure that type of training will work up to a point but I dont buy into the fact it will make an Arnold out of you.

IMO it take a certain amount of volume to get the muscles worked fully. A couple of sets here and there will not stretch the fascia. I'm not slamming low volume by no means its just that I dont buy into these extremely low sets for maximum progress.

 

[jawbreakerkid]

no training will make an arnold out of you without arnold's genetics. You're also missing the main focus of DC's training. You're hitting every muscle group twice every 8 days. Try training with 12-15 sets, balls out heavy, twice every 8 days. See how long that lasts. The thought process is, those three sets you train a muscle group in one workout will be 100% intense. You can't tell me you keep a high intensity on every rep of every set in a 15 set workout. Listen to what Phil has been trying to get across, diet is the key to growth, not a training style. When I was younger every muscle and fitness and Flex had a new routine in it, and out of ignorance I would try most of them. All these techniques and reps and sets and...BULLSHIT! My best growth was training every muscle group once a week, 9 sets per muscle group, my training lasted about 45 minutes. But I was eating 7-8K cals a day and upwards of 500g protein a day. My training style wasn't anything special, I lifted heavy, used compound movements, and ate a boatload of food. People make this shit way too complicated.

 

[Trulyhuge]

Here we go...lol
Sure, Arnold had great Bi's and a great chest...but what else? Legs...omg don't even go there. Some may benefit from volume training and others may not.
Mentzer and Dorian came along and PROVED how lower volume can make a beast out of you. And poking DC training and saying it will work up to a certain point? And will not make an Arnold out of you? Well, I don't want skinny ass legs, no delts, and no back!

TH

 

[MR.BICEPS]

I'm not advising Arnold routines by no means because I do believe its too much. I also agree that diet is the missing factor in growth. All I am trying to get across is a certain amount of volume coupled with the proper diet is the key to growth.

I think any change is good but overall a moderate amount of volume like the type of routine VANDER uses is the best overall for most.

Charles Glass who is know for being the trainer of champions also believes in 12 sets or so once per week. Is Charles wrong? I dont think he is.....

MASSIVE G wrote a great response to DOGCRAPP training. He explained how people grow off of the low volume at first because its a change and many are overtraining. Also less calories are burned on a low volume routine and thi sequates more weight gain for those not eating enouhg calories. I can hit 15 sets with total intensity. Come train with me and you'll find out but I dont think 15 sets is necesarry in exception to lats. The lats need about 16 in general sets IMO.

Yes DOGCRAPP works but I still believe at this point and time more volume in conjunction with a better diet and more drugs will yield far better results if the gentics are there..

Ronnie Coleman does 12 sets twice per week for biceps. Would hi sbiceps be as big on a super low volume routine like DOGCRAPP? Thats the question I am asking?

 

[Entity]

People make this shit way too complicated.

Man, you said it!
What the fuck ever happened to hoisting some heavy iron and eating like an animal. THAT builds muscle, whatever training method you subscribe to.

 

[MR.BICEPS]

Man, you said it!
What the fuck ever happened to hoisting some heavy iron and eating like an animal. THAT builds muscle, whatever training method you subscribe to.

Thats true as well. I was reading some articles by this DOGCRAPP trainer. Too me he sounded preachy like Mentzer did back in the 80's. His way or nor way.

I think all programs will work for a while but none work indefinetly. I still think the modrate approach is the best thing going. Normally when you have to extremes the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[MR.BICEPS]

no training will make an arnold out of you without arnold's genetics. You're also missing the main focus of DC's training. You're hitting every muscle group twice every 8 days. Try training with 12-15 sets, balls out heavy, twice every 8 days. See how long that lasts. The thought process is, those three sets you train a muscle group in one workout will be 100% intense. You can't tell me you keep a high intensity on every rep of every set in a 15 set workout. Listen to what Phil has been trying to get across, diet is the key to growth, not a training style. When I was younger every muscle and fitness and Flex had a new routine in it, and out of ignorance I would try most of them. All these techniques and reps and sets and...BULLSHIT! My best growth was training every muscle group once a week, 9 sets per muscle group, my training lasted about 45 minutes. But I was eating 7-8K cals a day and upwards of 500g protein a day. My training style wasn't anything special, I lifted heavy, used compound movements, and ate a boatload of food. People make this shit way too complicated.

I agree with what your saying. Again you were doing 9 sets once per week which is considered a moderate amount of volume by most. Some are saying all it takes is three sets once per week to get massive. I say NO WAY...

 

[jawbreakerkid]

isn't a large part of bbing and building muscle about tearing up the muscle and recovering as fast as possible? Well if you're tearing up the muscle and recovering twice every 8 days vs. once every 7 days...wouldn't that lead to more growth? With proper diet of course

But that is 9 sets once a week vs. 6 sets every 8 days. I have used both and both worked for me. As far as training with 12-15 sets, never worked very well for me. We're all different though.

 

[muscle96ss]

Unfortunately there is another aspect to buidling muscle that is frequently ignored. That would be the NEURAL aspect. Lifting weights(whether it be excess volume or excess poundage), puts a HUGE taxing on the CNS. Yes, you can get the nutrients into the muscle and speed up muscle recovery, but the neural recovery stills takes much longer. How can you build more muscle when you haven't given the neural system the proper amount of recovery to fully stimulate the muscle fibers you are trying to get to grow?

 

[haze324]

[/QUOTE]MASSIVE G wrote a great response to DOGCRAPP training. He explained how people grow off of the low volume at first because its a change and many are overtraining. Also less calories are burned on a low volume routine and thi sequates more weight gain for those not eating enouhg calories. I can hit 15 sets with total intensity. Come train with me and you'll find out but I dont think 15 sets is necesarry in exception to lats. The lats need about 16 in general sets IMO.

Ronnie Coleman does 12 sets twice per week for biceps. Would hi sbiceps be as big on a super low volume routine like DOGCRAPP? Thats the question I am asking? [/QUOTE]


Well I'll start off by saying that everyone has different recovery abilities and I think the "best" routine is the one that you are getting the most out of and not overtraining. Its easy to say I do 15 sets once a week.....well lets say you also ran 5 miles in the morning and worked 2 jobs. Theres no way with that amount of excersize and stress that you are getting complete CNS recovery. So that persone may need to only lift 3 times a week in order to grow. There are extremes at both end of the spectrum and DC has a few variations to his workouts and splits. Also look at Big A's HIT workout, DC says one RP set per muscle, Big A has 1-3 straight sets per muscle.

One thing I would like to add is that some guys can do 16 sets for back, but I have yet to see someone do 16 HIT style sets of dead lifts. I can barely do 2 sets of deadlifts to failure without blacking out, why do 14 more?? Unless I'm not doing them with full intesity.

 

[JonnyO]

I trained under DC's guidance for a while and I broke my weight plateau by far. I gained 35lbs the first 8-10 weeks, went from 218 to 255 in that time. But since that time I havent been able to get any heavier than 255. I have gone back down to 245 here and there, but now I am just ovre 250 and alot harder and less lethargic than at first and feel great. My body has adapted to the new weight I have put on. But I find I hit a wall in the DC training and wasnt getting much results (physically) after 7 months or so. I feel over all DC training is good for mass and for building a powerbuilder type of person. I am a bodybuilder and need to develop each muscle whether it be big or small muscle group, I need to hit them from all angles. I have changed my training back to 3 on, 1 off, 2 on 1 off and do anywhere from 12-16 sets per muscle group and go very heavy each set. My gains are coming back once again and I havent looked better or felt better. I feel changing up routines from DC to what I am doing would work great. Maybe try the DC training for 3 months or every 6 months so you dont become accustomed to one training style. Either way, you have to be open to change once in a while and DC training is a good change. You cant keep with the same routine and expect results time and time again.

 

[Trulyhuge]

OMG, this is getting rediculous!!!
first of all DC is not preaching. If you don't like or believe his methods then don't do them....simple as that!
It's 3 sets EVERY 8 DAYS man, re-read and then discuss!!!
And DC's clients and pictures prove a hell of a lot more than any words bro!
Also, I am not downing Vander one bit, the guy looks good. But, is he your hero or something? Is "what Vander does" what we all should be doing? That sounds like preaching to me...lol.
Dude, why even go into how the pro's train? Ronnie would grow off eating cardboard...lol. These guys are so genetically gifted it's unreal. And Charles Glass may be a good trainer but take a pro who is already superior to 95% of the world in genetics and you're damn right he'll look good!

TH

 

[bigbadasian]

Reply

|--[\\\]>--------- There is no real answer to this debate. here is an example, do we all agree that Lee Priest and Kris Dim have big arms? well in a recent mag. they both outlined their arm workout, Priest likes to do High vol. high reps and Dim likes to keep the reps lower/keep the sets to a min. now they both have totally dif. w/o but they both have HUGE arms.... IF you train, no mattrer what way you train (low vol/high vol) and you eat and have enough rest, YOU WILL GROW.

 

[SAMMYSDAD]

Arnold and Ronnie

Just wanted to mention that Ronnie really doesnt do 12 sets for biceps if you take into consideration that only his last set for each exercise is even close to work. That would basically make it 3 hard sets twice per week. Also, Kent Kuehn, one of Arnolds training partners of the old days told me Arnold only did the super high volume when getting ready for a contest. 8 months out of the year he trained each bodypart twice a week with 2 exercises 4-5 sets pyramiding up to a heavy set of 6 (12-10-8-6). He said sometimes he would go lower to test his strength but most of the time 6 was the goal. When I lived out in Cali in the late 80's I worked at Gold's Venice as the weight pickerupper and "spyed" on all the guys to figure out what they were doing. Most did something along the lines of what Arnold did for sets although at that point they were starting to get more into the rest aspect and evolving towards 3 on one off instead of the 6 days straight. The Barbarian Brothers and Vic Richards were doing 4 on one off and they were the biggest animals out there at the time.

 

[HUTCH]

I think Training styles and principles or whatever are deeply overated.....I think the only 2 things in training that makes a huge difference is the amount of weight that you use and changing your routine around to shock mucsles....I use all different styles of training mostly basic heavy shit, but sometimes i do high reps, sometimes doggcrap....To live by someone elses training is pretty ridiculous...you can follow Vander around the gym your whole life and do all the shit he does and you will come out totally different than him, maybe better maybe worse....I think we all understand that though, or at least i thought that before seeing this thread....

 

[MR.BICEPS]

I think Training styles and principles or whatever are deeply overated.....I think the only 2 things in training that makes a huge difference is the amount of weight that you use and changing your routine around to shock mucsles....I use all different styles of training mostly basic heavy shit, but sometimes i do high reps, sometimes doggcrap....To live by someone elses training is pretty ridiculous...you can follow Vander around the gym your whole life and do all the shit he does and you will come out totally different than him, maybe better maybe worse....I think we all understand that though, or at least i thought that before seeing this thread....

Exactly! I used VANDER style only because its a moderate routine in regard to sets.

I have seen a lot of preaching on other boards as to why DOGCRAPP is the only method. Sure its great for a while but then its tim eot up the volume for a while. The middle ground of 12 sets once per wek is a good middle ground but not the "QUOTE GOSPEL OF TRAINING". I only used VANDER as an example nothing else....

 

[MR.BICEPS]

isn't a large part of bbing and building muscle about tearing up the muscle and recovering as fast as possible? Well if you're tearing up the muscle and recovering twice every 8 days vs. once every 7 days...wouldn't that lead to more growth? With proper diet of course

But that is 9 sets once a week vs. 6 sets every 8 days. I have used both and both worked for me. As far as training with 12-15 sets, never worked very well for me. We're all different though.

You and I are in agreement here.

I just dont think 3 sets once per week is enough to effectively work a body part.

Now VANDER will be the first to tell you different things work for different people. By no menas has he ever told anyone ot follow his routine that i am aware of. However I still would have to choose his style over the super low volume routines of 3 sets per week.

If DOGCRAPP is saying 6 sets once per week then that would agree with Dave Palumbos style of training as well. I can grow off of six sets per week but not three...

 

[JonnyO]

remember those sets are rest pause sets and do not hold for every exercise like deads, leg press, squats, hacks.

 

[MR.BICEPS]

remember those sets are rest pause sets and do not hold for every exercise like deads, leg press, squats, hacks.

The rest pause stuff is basically Mentzer training at its best...Ive have used it but it hurt my shoulder and elbow joints in the past. Thats type of heavy lifting is what done in YATES!

 

[jawbreakerkid]

ok, I think you're a little confused on DC training. It's 3 sets twice every 8 days. So 6 sets total over an 8 day period. Those sets are rest pause except for exercises like the ones jonnyo listed. So you're hitting one set for say 8 reps, then 15 deep breaths, another set for 5-6 reps, 15 deep breaths and a third for as many as you can get. All while performing a negative after the final rep of each set. This style of training will be performed twice for each muscle group every 8 days.

I agree on switching it up though, I was using DC's methods while bulking, but when I started dieting I went to a 12 set per muscle group lay out. But this is not intended for building muscle, it's for maintaining muscle and burning fat. But again, it all comes down to eating and lifting heavy for adding size, plain and simple. Some of the dumbest people I know look amazing because they don't over analyze things. They approach training in an almost barbaric fashion. "Eat food, lift heavy weight, repeat."