What exactly does training to failure mean

[Slowmoe]

I sort of understand the gist, you keep hitting reps until you can no longer complete a rep. But training to complete failure, does tat mean on your last rep you push the rep out as far as you can, then stop, or (bench press for instance) you keep pushing until the bar falls all the way back down to your chest. Serious question lol.

I was reading Big A's sticky about one working set to failure per exercise, has me intrigued.

 

[LK3]

if the goal is to hit possative failure then you are repping the weight until it will not go up anymore so your last rep is like half a rep. you need a spotter or to work on smythe or other sort of machine for pressing so you can rack the wieght in the middle.

if you were going past failure say with rest pause you would then get up put the wieght back to starting possition and get ready for the second part of that set.

negative failure you need a training partner as you need help to get the rep up then you control it down until you no longer have that ability.

static failure? lol
holding the wieght in one spot maybe doing tiny rep or contraction until it starts to fall.

 

[danieltx]

Training to failure generally means training to positive failure, where you safely complete a rep but know you cannot safely complete another with good form.

Failing by way of losing control of the bar is a recipe for injury. I can see allowing yourself to fail mid-rep on selectorized or plate loaded machines but not with barbells, dumbbells, or a Smith machine. Even with pins or a spotter it's risky. If you're a big guy it's hard enough to find a spotter who's capable of handling the weight, I definitely wouldn't trust them in case of emergency.

 

[IronLion2]

Depends, theres multiple types of failure.

Technical - Form breaks down and direct tension is usually lost.
Mechanical - The primary muscle cannot contract optimally enough to continue.
Total Failure - Not only can you not do another set, but you can't even function after. Mainly only happens in full body compound moves, very draining to CNS.

Pairing the right type of failure with the right type of stimulus is important here. We don't do flys to total failure and we don't stop squats or bench just because you force out ugly reps.

I fucking love 1-2 sets to failure. Really takes time to learn (took me 3months to get right) and it takes fucking balls but it's worth it.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Depends, theres multiple types of failure.

Technical - Form breaks down and direct tension is usually lost.
Mechanical - The primary muscle cannot contract optimally enough to continue.
Total Failure - Not only can you not do another set, but you can't even function after. Mainly only happens in full body compound moves, very draining to CNS.

Pairing the right type of failure with the right type of stimulus is important here. We don't do flys to total failure and we don't stop squats or bench just because you force out ugly reps.

I fucking love 1-2 sets to failure. Really takes time to learn (took me 3months to get right) and it takes fucking balls but it's worth it.

THIS.

 

[alfresco]

Some good definitions here.

If I may add one thing . . . I work to positive failure
(would work to negative failure occasionally if I
had a training partner) but . . . continue with partial
reps, under control, in strict fashion until reaching my
‘guide number’ of reps. By doing this, it is my theory
that this trains the mind and the body to endure,
to grow accustomed to (more) time under tension.

So, don't quit at 6 or 8 reps for instance. Keep going
with as much range of motion that is safely possible
until you reach you guide number of reps for that set.

This is safe and effective way to train very intensely.
It works for me. Give it a try. It's not fun or easy but
you get what you pay for

 

[maldorf]

All very good answers here. One tough technique I used for awhile with John Parillo on squats. He had a seat built up with multiple layers of wood that you could put on or take off to make it higher or lower. We would squat down on that and actually rest on it, like we were sitting. Then you basically stand up off of that. Really worked that particular range of motion. Getting the bar moving from a dead standstill is hard.

I think someone mentioned forced reps, where you have a partner helping you to lift the bar. You can go on to do multiple reps that after positive failure that way. You can also do drop sets, where the partner helps you rack the weight after you hit failure, then strips off some weight and lets you continue the set on your own. Multiple drops incorporated into the set.

I like down the rack dumbbell curls too, where you hit failure on the curl, rack that weight and then grab the next one that is 5 lbs less. Rep out on that and so on. Ive gone down all the way to where curling a 5lb weight feels like 50 lbs! Would be funny if a hot girl would walk in and see a guy curling 5 lbs like it were heavy!

 

[Delt123]

Going to hijack this thread a bit, sorry OP, but I think it's related.

How strict do y'all train? Do you allow Some body English, not at all or throw Some weights around?

There is this Guy at my gym really throwing around weights and it seems to do him pretty good imagine ronnies heaviest t-bar row form times too, curl, etc etc all throwing around.

Personally I like to keep it rather strict although I've noticed a little body English on Some excersises like db Side raises really helps you to push a bit further. Excersises like squats I'm striving for A1 form on the other hand.

 

[jeroendebleser]

Just my opinion

Going to hijack this thread a bit, sorry OP, but I think it's related.

How strict do y'all train? Do you allow Some body English, not at all or throw Some weights around?

There is this Guy at my gym really throwing around weights and it seems to do him pretty good imagine ronnies heaviest t-bar row form times too, curl, etc etc all throwing around.

Personally I like to keep it rather strict although I've noticed a little body English on Some excersises like db Side raises really helps you to push a bit further. Excersises like squats I'm striving for A1 form on the other hand.

I used to be in the ultra-strict camp but it brought me little benefit honestly. Now I'm all for using looser form (with heavier weights). The key is to make it benefit your contractions, don't go throwing around heavier weights just for the sake of it or you'll just injure something while still getting no results. But if you've been training for years (as I assume you have), you'll know just what I mean here and should be able to execute it properly. Basically stop doing exercises as if you were taught by a PT (all of them are small aren't they?) and start doing them like most of the big guys do them. There's a reason they're doing them that way. I think both Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler are good examples of what it should look like on the outside. If someone asks me how to execute exercises, I always tell them to watch Jay Cutler training videos on Youtube. His form is imo perfect for mass building purposes.

 

[Delt123]

I used to be in the ultra-strict camp but it brought me little benefit honestly. Now I'm all for using looser form (with heavier weights). The key is to make it benefit your contractions, don't go throwing around heavier weights just for the sake of it or you'll just injure something while still getting no results. But if you've been training for years (as I assume you have), you'll know just what I mean here and should be able to execute it properly. Basically stop doing exercises as if you were taught by a PT (all of them are small aren't they?) and start doing them like most of the big guys do them. There's a reason they're doing them that way. I think both Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler are good examples of what it should look like on the outside. If someone asks me how to execute exercises, I always tell them to watch Jay Cutler training videos on Youtube. His form is imo perfect for mass building purposes.

Very true! I've been in the very strict camp too and that was really a waste of time. With the Side raises I feel like I can cheat safely AND benefit from it.

As for the examples like Ronnie or Jay, I agree. They train with good form although this form hurts my eyes and I'd never train like that https://youtu.be/xhuCUZmHylc

But I'm just a normal guys vs these monsters so who Am I to judge

 

[Biggerp73]

Interesting question. I rarely ever go to failure, but I suppose the best way to do it probably would be to hit failure in not only the positive, but the negative portion as well.

 

[surge]

Depends, theres multiple types of failure.

Technical - Form breaks down and direct tension is usually lost.
Mechanical - The primary muscle cannot contract optimally enough to continue.
Total Failure - Not only can you not do another set, but you can't even function after. Mainly only happens in full body compound moves, very draining to CNS.

Pairing the right type of failure with the right type of stimulus is important here. We don't do flys to total failure and we don't stop squats or bench just because you force out ugly reps.

I fucking love 1-2 sets to failure. Really takes time to learn (took me 3months to get right) and it takes fucking balls but it's worth it.

:yeahthat:

It's also important to know when to use each type and how many times. I trained legs earlier and keep total failure sets to about 3 otherwise I struggle to recover for my next leg day. There is no universal rule with this stuff.

 

[LK3]

Going to hijack this thread a bit, sorry OP, but I think it's related.

How strict do y'all train? Do you allow Some body English, not at all or throw Some weights around?

There is this Guy at my gym really throwing around weights and it seems to do him pretty good imagine ronnies heaviest t-bar row form times too, curl, etc etc all throwing around.

Personally I like to keep it rather strict although I've noticed a little body English on Some excersises like db Side raises really helps you to push a bit further. Excersises like squats I'm striving for A1 form on the other hand.

i think to some degree there could be a time and place for both.
while good form is always important i think if a lil younger and in more prime gaining wieght sort of years using heavier wieghts you can get away with a little more.

i think when older more crunchy and after many years of the above we tend to benefit more from very strict form and slower movements. sort of combination of expereicne and observation. lol

from injuries and repeatedly hurting myself i have had to go back and rethink some things like squats where maybe before heavier weight was great, but as i got older i got hurt with warm up weights preventing me from even trying to use heavy working weights.

key seems to be using lighter wieght with very slow strict higher reps.

 

[jeroendebleser]

i think to some degree there could be a time and place for both.
while good form is always important i think if a lil younger and in more prime gaining wieght sort of years using heavier wieghts you can get away with a little more.

i think when older more crunchy and after many years of the above we tend to benefit more from very strict form and slower movements. sort of combination of expereicne and observation. lol

from injuries and repeatedly hurting myself i have had to go back and rethink some things like squats where maybe before heavier weight was great, but as i got older i got hurt with warm up weights preventing me from even trying to use heavy working weights.

key seems to be using lighter wieght with very slow strict higher reps.

You know what's kind of funny and paradoxical (or maybe it isn't): I've had 12 surgeries over the years, most because of lifting related injuries/damage. When did I acquire those? When I was training with ultra-strict form, not one injury since I've started doing movements more ballistically. It may just be a coincidence but I honestly don't think it is. When training too strict, something feels 'off'. I can't really explain it but there's something about being too stiff in movements that increases injury risk imo. Especially the stronger you get. I can see very strong guys handling big weights using too strict a form as being a recipe for disaster.

I'm in full agreeance about lightening the load and upping the reps for older/worn down people though.

Just my opinion though and to be clear again, I'm not advocating using heavy weights just for the sake of it. It needs to serve it's function and that is always working out the target muscle as hard as is humanly possible.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I think that for the most part guys mix up speed, the contraction and form and then confuse themselves on how they all work together.
I used to power lift and only gave a shit about a movement...moving heavy weight from A to B. Yes, the form was good...but I had no mind muscle connection or peak contraction.

I think for the most part, guys just need to make sure they are FEELING the weight. If that means they have to drop the ego and drop the weight by 50lbs, then so be it. I have gotten my best gains by realizing and being self-aware when I am just trying to move heavy ass weight. I have to tell myself to chill and decrease the weight and feeeelll it.

I think Jordan Peters had some good quotes on this (I follow a ton of his principles). He was a dude who had built himself up to gorilla strength within his logbook (Im a logbook guy too) but eventually realized he was just moving weight and felt nothing. He took an entire offseason to slow his reps down and concentrate on the mind muscle connection THEN build up again.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just interested in this shit haha

 

[Freedom15Muscle]

All very good answers here. One tough technique I used for awhile with John Parillo on squats. He had a seat built up with multiple layers of wood that you could put on or take off to make it higher or lower. We would squat down on that and actually rest on it, like we were sitting. Then you basically stand up off of that. Really worked that particular range of motion. Getting the bar moving from a dead standstill is hard.

I think someone mentioned forced reps, where you have a partner helping you to lift the bar. You can go on to do multiple reps that after positive failure that way. You can also do drop sets, where the partner helps you rack the weight after you hit failure, then strips off some weight and lets you continue the set on your own. Multiple drops incorporated into the set.

I like down the rack dumbbell curls too, where you hit failure on the curl, rack that weight and then grab the next one that is 5 lbs less. Rep out on that and so on. Ive gone down all the way to where curling a 5lb weight feels like 50 lbs! Would be funny if a hot girl would walk in and see a guy curling 5 lbs like it were heavy!

Squats sound similar to pin squats or dead stop squats. Ive used them regularly to success.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

 

[alfresco]

well . . .

. . . We would squat down on that and actually rest on it, like we were sitting. Then you basically stand up off of that.

Hey M,

Not doubting the progress you may have made utilizing this process,
but at what cost?

How is you back now?

‘Box squats’ as they are commonly referred to, are probably one
of the worst things you can do to your spine due to load being
transferred to your spinal column and not absorbed my your
musculature and supporting tissue.

Think about it . . . if you sit on a hard surface like you described
with the extra weight (usually heavy) across your shoulders,
the bones in your pelvis up through your spinal column are under
a direct load, a load that would otherwise be distributed / managed
throughout your torso. Really dangerous . . . Russian roulette
if you ask me.

I had an interesting conversation about his very subject with
Dr. Vert Mooney (a world renowned, probably the best orthopedic
surgeon who specialized in the spine, in the world) who I met when
he was in town opening one his new clinics (spineandsport.com).
I was fortunate to be given an introduction to him by a mutual
friend. (Little did I know he had an unexpected and very valuable
‘present’ for me on his table when I arrived; given to me, free of
charge, no strings attached.)

True box squats, bad for the reasons I articulated. (He agreed.)
‘Touch and go’ box squats okay if no sitting, just touching.
Parallel squats are good, full squats are even better . . . if you
can do them with rounding the spine . . . which is true with all
squats.

He thought squats were fine, more than fine actually, a healthy
and safe and very result producing exercise if, and a big if here,
if you your body is biomechanically ‘correct’ for this exercise.
(If not it, under heavy loads is recipe for long term back and
hip problems.) But not everybody’s is. And that is where the
trouble comes in. Like they say, some can, some can’t. It
actually takes very little time in the form of observation to
determine if a person is see if a person is ‘good’ at squats.
You can spot a natural squatter a mile away. Up and down,
perpendicular, like a piston in a cylinder. These are the folks
that are reaping the maximum results, instead of the people
like me that have to artificially elevate my heals and pre-
exhaust my quads to save my back . . . and sometimes,
most times actually, even that is not enough.

But I digress . . .

Read his book The Unguarded Moment. It is worth reading.

Vert died in an auto accident in October 13, 2009.

He was very generous to me and while I did not know him
well, I continued seeing him (briefly) when he was in town
and I consider it an honor to have met him and to have
spent some small amount of time with him.

Now back to the OP’s topic . . . training to failure.

 

[LK3]

like... 20 years or so ago for sports had various strength coaches.. box squats were in the mix at some point but was stressed not to deload at the bottom. just touch the box lightly.

sitting down like that puts a lot of unnecesary stress on things.

also in the post above someone mentions super slow and injury which i dont disagree with. i dont think really great form is neccesarily super slow, a big part of a great rep i feel is the big push and explosive force.

very strict reps are done to try and use less weight and avoid injury, not look for a different sort of injury. lol