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Long-term Effects of Trenbolone? (After Getting Off Completely)

TheBigTaco

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Messages
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I'm new to this board, but not new to bb. I have been searching for people's experiences with trenbolone, in regard to health effects after stopping use.

I have heard that using trenbolone can cause residual problems with the HPTA, lingering for many years, including erectile dysfunction, sexual disinterest, and depression, most likely attributed to high prolactin levels.

What I'm trying to get more information about is what other guys' experiences with tren have been, and if so, do you have supporting lab work or anecdotal experiences to share?

Also, do you have any recommendations as far as lab tests to have done, treatments and medications to consider, etc?

Personally, I've experienced decreased libido, high prolactin, high estrogen, low LH, low FSH, low testosterone (free and total), ED, you name it. Specific lab values are:

7/23/10 -- Baseline
FSH 1.2
LH 3.7
Testosterone, Total 343

9/22/10 -- Immediately following a clomiphene restart
FSH 3.5
LH 4.9
Testosterone, Total 966

11/24/10 -- 2 months after clomiphene restart
FSH 1.8
LH 2.3
Testosterone, Total 429

8/1/11 -- Immediately following another clomiphene restart
FSH 2.4
LH 6.5
Testosterone, Total 875

Also on 11/24/10
Cortisol 14
Vitamin D 38
Testosterone, Bioavailable 128 (128 - 430)
Bioavailable Testosterone % 29.8
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin 33

Also on 8/1/11
Estrogen 48.9 (20-30)
Prolactin 14.8 (4-15)
PSA 0.4 (< 5)


Thanks for reading.
 
Last edited:
Big Taco thanks for using your 1st post for something worthwhile

Most Don't:banghead:

With that said I have done long bouts with Tren A an Tren E 7months one cycle and longer this cycle. I'm very interested in long term effects. The sad thing is we probably won't know because nobody researches or dose studies on it. We use our experiences as the results!!!
 
Ill tell you what IS a long term effect, your nuts shrink down to the size of marbles. Stay on Tren longer than 10 weeks and just watch your sack dwiddle away down to almost nothing. :cool:
 
What do you guys do about the severe heartburn and indigestion while actually on?
 
I know it's been beaten to death,
but I can't stop wondering about the weird colored pee and the coughing after some injections.
I've had so many weird shots of tren where I have a tingling metallic taste in my tongue, as well as a warm tingly itch all over my body with the cough.
Makes me wonder what the hell I am doing to myself sometimes.

No other AAS does that, IME.
 
The main side effect you are seeing is upregulation of aromatase activity, this is true of all AAS, although I have always suspected tren does this more than others, even though it does not aromatize.
 
Here is some of my ongoing research:

Systemic Effects:

1. Adrenal Gland
Trenbolone has been implicated in shrinking the adrenal gland in vivo, and antiglucocorticoid activity via inhinbition of dexamethasone-induced transcriptional activity.

The adrenal cortex is regulated by neuroendocrine hormones secreted by the pituitary gland and hypothalamus → Adrenal insufficiency can also occur when the hypothalamus or the pituitary gland, both located at the base of the skull, does not make adequate amounts of the hormones that assist in regulating adrenal function. This is called secondary adrenal insufficiency and is caused by lack of production of ACTH in the pituitary or lack of CRH in the hypothalamus.

2. Androgen Receptors, Progesterone Receptors
Trenbolone shows strong binding to the androgen receptor, to the progestin receptor and to the glucocorticoid receptor (21). Concerning the androgenic activity, it can be assumed that trenbolone acts like other androgens - in comparison with the most active endogenous hormone dihydrotestosterone (RBA= 100) the affinity of trenbolone-17P is even higher (RBA= 109).

“Biochemistry and physiology of anabolic hormones used for improvement of meat production” Review article, Heinrich Meyer

3. Pituitary, Hypothalamus, Testis

Since trenbolone possesses both estrogenic (ER) or progestogenic (PR) activity, it inhibits LH & FSH by directly down-regulating the GnRH receptors on the pituitary, while also reducing GnRH release from the hypothalamus. Therefore, progestin based AAS such as trenbolone (and nandralone) are “double suppressive” because they are binding to the AR and PR and suppressing LH & FSH by two different mechanisms.

Patterns of LH secretion in castrated bulls during intravenous infusion of androgenic and estrogenic steroids: Pituitary response to exogenous luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone
M.J. D’occhio et al. Biology of reproduction 26, 249-257 (1982)

Studies on the role of sex steroids in the feedback control of FSH concentrations in men.
Sherins RJ, Loriaux DL. 1973 J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 36:886-893

So, What Does This Mean?

1. In terms of Erectile Dysfunction
"On the other hand, T is more relevant than DHT in erectile function, which requires central and peripheral androgenic activity. T exerts both humoral endocrine and local paracrine effects. It is likely that androgens are vital for the development, maintenance and function of penile tissue and regulation of erectile physiology. However, the critical androgenic substance for these effects is most likely T rather than DHT." J Androl 2008;29:514–523

This implies that trenbolone affects and/or displaces testosterone and DHT from androgen receptors, thereby effecting erections.

Further, the increases in prolactin seen on -- and after cessation of -- trenbolone have an adverse, inhibitory effect on testosterone and LH levels. High prolactin is correlated with low libido and erectile dysfunction.

Results of this investigation indicate that oestradiol causes pathophysiological changes in erectile function. These observations provide an indirect evidence for the possible sexual health hazards in man upon inadvertent exposure to environmental oestrogens, ageing and derangement of E2–T ratio.

International Journal of Impotence Research (2003) 15, 38–43. doi:10.1038/sj.ijir.3900945
__________________________________________________ _______________

In summary, administration of a potent and selective aromatase antagonist reduces estradiol and
elevates mean LH concentrations equivalently in young and older men. The low estrogen-feedback
state in elderly men unmasks diminished incremental LH pulse amplitude and area; absence of further
acceleration of LH pulse frequency; impaired regulation of the orderliness of LH release; and reduced
testosterone to SHBG ratios. Thus, aging alters expected hypothalamopituitary-gonadal adaptations
to short-term partial estrogen depletion in healthy men.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 January ; 90(1): 211–218.

__________________________________________________ _______________

In summary, administration of a selective aromatase antagonist lowers (24-h mean)
concentrations of estradiol by 50% and elevates LH concentrations by 100% in young and
older healthy men. Negative-feedback adaptations to partial estrogen withdrawal differ
significantly by age. In particular, relative estrogen depletion in older, unlike young, men fails
to evoke (further) augmentation of the following: 1) incremental LH peak amplitude and LH
pulse area; 2) daily LH pulse frequency; 3) LH secretory-pattern irregularity; and 4) the molar
ratio of testosterone to SHBG concentrations. These outcomes extend concepts of agingassociated
regulatory defects in the male by hypothalmopituitary gonadal axis to include
estrogen-dependent feedback control.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 January ; 90(1): 211–218.
__________________________________________________ _______________


Results of this investigation indicate that oestradiol causes pathophysiological changes in erectile function. These observations provide an indirect evidence for the possible sexual health hazards in man upon inadvertent exposure to environmental oestrogens, ageing and derangement of E2–T ratio.

International Journal of Impotence Research (2003) 15, 38–43. doi:10.1038/sj.ijir.3900945
__________________________________________________ _______________


Similar pathophysiological imbalance between androgen and oestrogen is likely to be associated with other clinical states of adult-onset hypogonadism9 as well as hyperoestrogenism.10 Under such circumstances, since E2 is a more potent gonadotropin suppressant than testosterone,4 a vicious cycle that leads to an absolute testosterone deficiency is likely to be precipitated by E2-induced decrements in LH and FSH release.

International Journal of Impotence Research (2003) 15, 38–43. doi:10.1038/sj.ijir.3900945
__________________________________________________ _______________


Conforming to structural changes in the cavernosum of trans-sexuals exposed to oestrogen,17 the penile morphology demonstrated a reduction in smooth muscle and relative increase in connective
tissue distribution.

International Journal of Impotence Research (2003) 15, 38–43. doi:10.1038/sj.ijir.3900945

__________________________________________________ _______________


(a) Light micrograph 1: trichrome-stained light micrograph of control rat cavernosum. Scattered sinusoids, smooth muscle fibres and connective tissue show normal architecture (magnification: 50). (b) Light micrograph 2: trichrome-stained light micrograph of cavernosum from E2-(0.01 mg) treated rat at 12 weeks. Some degree of connective tissue proliferation is seen (magnification: 50).
(c) Light micrograph 3: trichrome-stained light micrograph of cavernosum from E2-(0.1 mg) treated rat at 12 weeks. There is extensive loose connective tissue proliferation amidst the distribution of sinusoidal spaces and scanty smooth musculature (magnification: 50).

International Journal of Impotence Research (2003) 15, 38–43. doi:10.1038/sj.ijir.3900945
__________________________________________________ _______________


1) Smooth Muscle Dysfunction.*Researchers now know that testosterone both maintains smooth muscle and the nerves the fire them in the corpus cavernosum. [1][5] For example, researchers have noted that in castrated animals, the nerve fibers and myelin sheaths around them actually shrink and "wither". And they have also noted that smooth muscle content in the corpus cavernosum decreased as well. [2] Yes, testosterone affects everything in a male!
2) Corpus Cavernosum Integrity. The research points to the fact that low testosterone can actually affect the connective tissue within the corpus cavernosum.* While you are losing smooth muscle, you are also likely gaining more connective tissue, i.e. collagen. [1][2][5] The ECM (extracellelular matrix) changes for the worse, another structure implicated in erectile dysfunction. [6]* This is a sort of "hardening" similar to what causes problems throughout your body. You need for the corpus cavernosum to be flexible and expandable in order to properly compress the outflow.
The bottom line is that researchers have found that in a low testosterone environment, the inside of the penis literally atrophies and is replaced with inelastic, fibrous tissue.*
For some of you that have discovered that you lived in a hypogonadal state for years without knowing it, this may be a scary prospect.* "Did it do permanent damage?" is the natural question to ask yourself.
The answer is probably 'yes' to some degree.* However, the good news is that studies show that if testosterone is restored, normal erectile function usually goes with it.* This means that the damage could not have been too severe from a long term low testosterone environment and indicates that a significant reversal is possible.*
By the way, some of you who may not respond well to PDE5 Inhibitors, such as Viagra or Cialis, may find that restoring your testosterone restores your erections for the above reasons. One study looked at hypogonadal males who did not respond to Viagra and found a significant restoration of erectile function after HRT (Testosterone Therarpy). [3] Very similar results were found in a study of Cialis non-responders as well. [5] In other words, sometimes the problem is nitric oxide and sometimes it is low testosterone (or both).
So the bottom line is that many of you need to either Increase Your Testosterone Naturally or discuss with your doctor Hormone Replacement Therapy if you want your erections back.* And, yes, Sex is Good For You.
* REFERENCES:
1) J Sex Med, 2005, 2:759–770, "The Physiological Role of Androgens in Penile Erection: Regulation of Corpus Cavernosum Structure and Function"
2) Endocrinology, Apr 1 1999, 140(4)1861-1868, "Effects of Castration and Androgen Replacement on Erectile Function in a Rabbit Model"
3) J Urol, 2004 Aug, 172(2):658-63, "Randomized study of testosterone gel as adjunctive therapy to sildenafil in hypogonadal men with erectile dysfunction who do not respond to sildenafil alone"
4) Grape seed
5) Andrologia, 2006, 38:61–68, "Testosterone and erectile function in hypogonadal men unresponsive to tadalafil: results from an open-label uncontrolled study"*
6) Braz. J. Morphol. Sci., 2008, 25(1-4):35-10, "Stereological study of extracellular matrix of penile body in felis domestica: experimental model applied to erectile dysfunction"

Venous Leakage

__________________________________________________ _______________

Androgens are deemed to be critical for the development, growth, and maintenance of penile tissue as well as for erectile function. Androgens are also reported to inhibit differentiation of stroma progenitor cells into adipocytes and promote differentiation into smooth muscle. The objective of this study was to investigate whether androgen deprivation results in accumulation of adipocytes in the corpus cavernosum. Mature, New Zealand white male rabbits were subjected to sham surgery (control) or orchiectomy. Two weeks after surgery, erectile function was assessed by monitoring changes in intracavernosal blood pressure (ICP) in response to pelvic nerve stimulation. All ICP measurements were normalized to the mean systemic arterial blood pressure. In parallel studies, penile cross sections from control and orchiectomized rabbits were fixed and stained with either Masson's trichrome or hematoxylin and eosin to assess smooth muscle and connective tissue content. Alternatively, tissue sections were stained with Toluidine blue to assess accumulation of fat-containing cells. Orchiectomy resulted in loss of erectile function and penile atrophy, associated with reduced trabecular smooth muscle and increased connective tissue content. Most strikingly, tissue from orchiectomized animals exhibited accumulation of fat-containing cells (adipocytes) in the subtunical region of the corpus cavernosum. We hypothesize that androgen deprivation promotes differentiation of progenitor stroma cells into an adipogenic lineage producing fat-containing cells, thus altering erectile function.

Journal of Andrology, Vol. 26, No. 2, March/April 2005


**This is a work in progress. I'll edit it as my body of research grows.
 
Last edited:
Great post, thanks for sharing. Very interesting to see your levels jump after clomid restarts. What were your previous cycles like that included tren and how long had you been on?
 
Great post, thanks for sharing. Very interesting to see your levels jump after clomid restarts. What were your previous cycles like that included tren and how long had you been on?

I had done 2 cycles previous to all of the labs you see. The first lab you see is 8 months after finishing cycle #2. It's been a year since then, where in the meantime, I've tried 3 clomiphene restarts.

The cycles I'd done were testosterone based, with the first cycle adding EQ for the last 8 weeks at ~500 mg/week for both testosterone and EQ over 14 weeks. The second cycle I did was heavier, where I added trenbolone enanthate to testosterone, both at ~600 mg/week for 16 weeks, along with some dianabol 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off. It was a huge mistake, and I regret it. I've paid for my errors, and then some.

FYI, and to anyone reading this experiencing something similar, there are clomiphene (clomid) restarts that have been done in clinical settings, and the results of which have been put into academic journals. Here is one example of it:

"Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

Center for Sexual Function (Endocrinology), Peabody, Massachusetts 01960, USA. [email protected]

Abstract

Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate, but with a modest effect on sexual function. We wondered if longer treatment would produce improved results. A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone (P<0.001) and free testosterone (P<0.001) occurred in all patients. Multivariable analysis showed that responses decreased significantly with aging (P<0.05). Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements."

It's been 12 days since I got off of clomiphene, and I'm pretty depressed and miserable. I'm hoping that my latest try with clomid will raise my testosterone, LH, FSH, and that my estrogen and prolactin will go down. If they don't, then I'll have to explore TRT for life. It's a rough spot to be in, for sure.
 
"What do you guys do about the severe heartburn and indigestion while actually on? "

Marshall I take Prlosec 40mg Delayed-release x1 day and Pepcid 20mg when I have bad heartburn.


And my nuts aren't marbles. i take 750mg of test with 400mg Tren a wk. Yes my Testes go up a little but they still stay bouncy.
 
holy YES !

I always run a 2 week course of zegrid in middle of tren cycles, sometimes that burp can bring you to your knees


incbb

Nexiun always does the trick for me, always.

OP, thanks for the info.

Chip
 
I had done 2 cycles previous to all of the labs you see. The first lab you see is 8 months after finishing cycle #2. It's been a year since then, where in the meantime, I've tried 3 clomiphene restarts.

The cycles I'd done were testosterone based, with the first cycle adding EQ for the last 8 weeks at ~500 mg/week for both testosterone and EQ over 14 weeks. The second cycle I did was heavier, where I added trenbolone enanthate to testosterone, both at ~600 mg/week for 16 weeks, along with some dianabol 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off. It was a huge mistake, and I regret it. I've paid for my errors, and then some.

FYI, and to anyone reading this experiencing something similar, there are clomiphene (clomid) restarts that have been done in clinical settings, and the results of which have been put into academic journals. Here is one example of it:

"Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

Center for Sexual Function (Endocrinology), Peabody, Massachusetts 01960, USA. [email protected]

Abstract

Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate, but with a modest effect on sexual function. We wondered if longer treatment would produce improved results. A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone (P<0.001) and free testosterone (P<0.001) occurred in all patients. Multivariable analysis showed that responses decreased significantly with aging (P<0.05). Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements."

It's been 12 days since I got off of clomiphene, and I'm pretty depressed and miserable. I'm hoping that my latest try with clomid will raise my testosterone, LH, FSH, and that my estrogen and prolactin will go down. If they don't, then I'll have to explore TRT for life. It's a rough spot to be in, for sure.

Id love to get TRT it'll be awsome. but lets see if ur levels go up naturally lets see what goes on bro best of luck
 
The main side effect you are seeing is upregulation of aromatase activity, this is true of all AAS, although I have always suspected tren does this more than others, even though it does not aromatize.

Now with this in mind, would something like Nolva or an AI on cycle help with those side effects?

I know I've read once or maybe twice cabergoline helps with tren sides.
 
Here's an idea...

What about this:

1. Start taking exemestane from researchstop to kill any aromatase enzyme you have lurking around.
2. Inject 100mcg of triptorelin from ergopep.
3. Continue taking exemestane.

When you come off, report on how everything is faring. This is just me hypothesizing, but wouldn't permanently killing aromatase activity while restarting your HPTA with trip give you the boost you're looking for?

Could it be that the clomid restarts boost your testosterone, but that in turn increases your aromatase activity and thus your estrogen, so when you come off the clomid you end up getting shutdown again?

After all, your bloodwork shows that your estrogen is high. So instead of boosting your testosterone by blocking your estrogen receptors (which dooms you to failure when you come off), why don't you go after the root of the problem and block the estrogen from being created in the first place?

I've never done this myself, so I can't comment on its efficacy. I'm just thinking aloud here.
 
Now with this in mind, would something like Nolva or an AI on cycle help with those side effects?

I know I've read once or maybe twice cabergoline helps with tren sides.

Taking an AI just upregulates aromatase, contributing to the problem. I personally use an AI, however I take breaks from it which seems to help me use a lower dose (I use nolva during the breaks). But regardless, there is no simple answer, one of the main side effect of taking AAS, or being on long term TRT seems to be hyperactive aromatase, ultimately this is what keeps most people from coming back to 100% between cycles.
 
Taking an AI just upregulates aromatase, contributing to the problem. I personally use an AI, however I take breaks from it which seems to help me use a lower dose (I use nolva during the breaks). But regardless, there is no simple answer, one of the main side effect of taking AAS, or being on long term TRT seems to be hyperactive aromatase, ultimately this is what keeps most people from coming back to 100% between cycles.

What about exemestane (aka aromasin)? Doesn't it permanently kill the aromatase enzyme? Wouldn't that allow for a "testosterone restart" while preventing estrogen rebound after coming off?

Just wondering - I'd like to pick your brain on this.
 
What about exemestane (aka aromasin)? Doesn't it permanently kill the aromatase enzyme? Wouldn't that allow for a "testosterone restart" while preventing estrogen rebound after coming off?

Just wondering - I'd like to pick your brain on this.

Exemestane deactivates the Aromatase. There isn't a rebound, which is one of it's benefits. As for it's effect on HPTA, I think I read somewhere that it raised free test levels twice as much as Androgel did in some patients...
 
Exemestane deactivates the Aromatase. There isn't a rebound, which is one of it's benefits. As for it's effect on HPTA, I think I read somewhere that it raised free test levels twice as much as Androgel did in some patients...

Right...

Clomid and nolva are weak estrogens which block estrogen activity at receptors. They don't actually deal with the root of the problem, which is high estrogen. So when you come off them, you can expect to be shut down again.

And arimidex and letro bind to aromatase, but that's reversible. So as soon as you come off arimidex or letro, you'll get an estrogen rebound which will shut you down again.

So a "suicidal inhibitor," like aromasin, which permanently binds to aromatase, is the best option. That would allow you to restart and come off without the estrogen rebound shutting you down again.

Am I correct or am I missing something here?
 
What about exemestane (aka aromasin)? Doesn't it permanently kill the aromatase enzyme? Wouldn't that allow for a "testosterone restart" while preventing estrogen rebound after coming off?

Just wondering - I'd like to pick your brain on this.

Exemestane deactivates the Aromatase. There isn't a rebound, which is one of it's benefits. As for it's effect on HPTA, I think I read somewhere that it raised free test levels twice as much as Androgel did in some patients...

Right...

Clomid and nolva are weak estrogens which block estrogen activity at receptors. They don't actually deal with the root of the problem, which is high estrogen. So when you come off them, you can expect to be shut down again.

And arimidex and letro bind to aromatase, but that's reversible. So as soon as you come off arimidex or letro, you'll get an estrogen rebound which will shut you down again.

So a "suicidal inhibitor," like aromasin, which permanently binds to aromatase, is the best option. That would allow you to restart and come off without the estrogen rebound shutting you down again.

Am I correct or am I missing something here?

There is a basic misunderstanding here about how aromatase works and how the competitive inhibition of these enzymes works. The reversible competitive inhibitors (anastrozole and letrozole) compete for the aromatase enzyme with testosterone, they are constantly bonding and unbonding with the enzyme, while they are bonded, the enzyme can't accept testosterone. The suicidal 3rd generation AI, exemestane, does the same thing, but it stays bonded to the enzyme. What you have to understand is, at BEST, all three of these AIs are reducing aromatase activity by 60-70%. This is because your body is constantly making more aromatase. Exemestane isn't stronger than adex or letro, it's actually a little weaker (mainly due to it's extremely short halflife in men, 9 hours). Exemestane is binding to aromatase, and shutting it down, however your body is just making more aromatase. The "rebound" from stopping an AI is from the fact that your body started making more aromatase, which is true for all the AIs.

Also remember, AIs work much differently in men than in women. In men they have less than half the halflife, and they don't wipe out E2 at all, they reduce it by around 50%. All this info can be found in a few recent studies done on men and AIs.
 

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