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MEGADOSING LEUCINE


Based on what I'm reading here, Brad is saying is that the co-consumption of all 3 BCAA's is disadvantageous compared to leucine alone, due to competition for absorption, but we've known this for many years now...and I've been saying it for years (which is why I normally advise leucine over all 3 BCAAs).

No evidence is presented here which shows that leucine supplementation does not help drive muscle growth. Brad says it, but there is no evidence. In fact, the copy & paste directly above Brad's appears to directly contradict what he is saying, as clearly says that leucine is the driver of MPS and recovery.
 
Problem with most studies these days, they're not representative enough. It seems that a lot of scientists are publishing for the sake of getting their name out there, doing so using weak methodologies leading to weak statistical power. This isn't part of the debate, just an observation.

My experience echos Mike's. In fact, I'm on cut, and I can't lose weight. I thought that my metabolism had slowed since my last cut because I cannot just lose the weight. But it then hit me, I am supplementing leucine with my meals and perhaps that is why I am not losing weight. I am however recomping and my strength is even increasing. Leucine is the only changed variable.
 
Based on what I'm reading here, Brad is saying is that the co-consumption of all 3 BCAA's is disadvantageous compared to leucine alone, due to competition for absorption, but we've known this for many years now...and I've been saying it for years (which is why I normally advise leucine over all 3 BCAAs).

No evidence is presented here which shows that leucine supplementation does not help drive muscle growth. Brad says it, but there is no evidence. In fact, the copy & paste directly above Brad's appears to directly contradict what he is saying, as clearly says that leucine is the driver of MPS and recovery.

My reply was a response to the leucine vs bcaa question, which was better. I think that even if leucine supplementation could give only 50 grams of extra muscle over a years time it would be worth it. I'm a bit sceptical over claims that people notice growth from adding leucine to a high protein diet (say 1g/lb) as the gains would have to be quite significant to be definitely seen on the scale or in the mirror - that is even if it "worked". My hunch is that leucine availability (lack of) isn't a limiting factor in muscle growth for people eating ample protein.

But with that said, I drank about 50 grams of bcaa during my workout yesterday... mostly because the product tastes good. :D
 
I'm surprised that people who believe in leucine/amino supplements aren't using hmb. It has been the laughing stock of supplements, seen as the ultimate scam ever since Phillips/Duchaine promoted it. But it's a leucine metabolite, activates mTor just like leucine and there are actually a bunch of studies on it, even if there are commercial interests involved in many of the studies. But I've seen the most sceptical supplement critics say it appears to do something.
 
My reply was a response to the leucine vs bcaa question, which was better. I think that even if leucine supplementation could give only 50 grams of extra muscle over a years time it would be worth it. I'm a bit sceptical over claims that people notice growth from adding leucine to a high protein diet (say 1g/lb) as the gains would have to be quite significant to be definitely seen on the scale or in the mirror - that is even if it "worked". My hunch is that leucine availability (lack of) isn't a limiting factor in muscle growth for people eating ample protein.

But with that said, I drank about 50 grams of bcaa during my workout yesterday... mostly because the product tastes good. :D

My thoughts as well. First of all, most people here are relatively advanced. It is unlikely that they will even put on 5lb of true muscle in the next year from good diet, training, and gear use (assuming they've been using gear for a while). Even if leucine is AMAZING it would maybe add another 1lb of muscle (which I think is an extreme exaggeration to suggest +20% gains in muscle). If that was the net progress then per month they would be on average gaining 0.5lb of muscle per month with leucine instead of 0.42lb of muscle per month without. You're telling me these guys are feeling this drastic difference from less than 0.1lb of muscle per month distributed over their entire body?

But like you, I had BCAAs in my workout yesterday :D tastes good and was free
 
You're telling me these guys are feeling this drastic difference from less than 0.1lb of muscle per month distributed over their entire body?

Exactly. And even if this type of gain could be seen and felt it would be very hard to pinpoint it on the leucine, what with the changing drug stacks and caloric intakes and different training routines. I asked some guys at the gym about this a while back, what do you think those hundreds of pounds of aminos over the years have done for you? And the answer was how could you tell? Impossible.
Not to mention many or most advanced guys have been almost stagnant for years despite everything, despite tens of thousands worth of growth hormones and other drugs.

I think this type of supplementation would have to be taken on faith, hoping that over time it adds up to positive changes.
 
A very simple thing many could do is simply buy some EAA's and BCAA's (or leucine only) powders and see if it makes a difference. They are not expensive and many sites have sales on so buy 1 months supply and see for yourself. If it improves recovery and/or body composition then great. If not well at least you tried and you are down a small amount of $. So often with debated subjects like this many will pick their favourite expert and go on his/her opinion instead of actually seeing for themselves.

There, easy answer.

Maybe too easy?
:)
 
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Has any of you guys megadosed leucine, or even EAA or BCAA? I have been having 5g leucine with my 3 meals a day (total 15g/day) and have definitely noticed improve recovery and strength over 30 day period.

Experiences welcome.

Ive gone to 200 grams luecine and 50 isoleucine and valine in a day (bcaas) in addition to 400 grams protein , 100carbs, and 25 fat. This was during pre ontest and needed to drop body fat fast.

I was losing strength on t3, low carbs, and fats, and the only thing I chnged was upped protein and bcaa's strength went back up. I do think bcaa;s have their place, esp pre contest or intra workout. That said, with enough protein you can get away without them. They're more like a luxury item.
 
Ive gone to 200 grams luecine and 50 isoleucine and valine in a day (bcaas) in addition to 400 grams protein , 100carbs, and 25 fat. This was during pre ontest and needed to drop body fat fast.

I was losing strength on t3, low carbs, and fats, and the only thing I chnged was upped protein and bcaa's strength went back up. I do think bcaa;s have their place, esp pre contest or intra workout. That said, with enough protein you can get away without them. They're more like a luxury item.

Well sure, not only did you add a lot of protein, you also added a lot of total calories by doing that. If you added 200g of carbs your strength likely would have gone up too.


Really curious was Homonunculus was going to say above.....undelete your post Scott :D
 
Since bcaa are so common and sold by so many in great flavors. I just throw in a scoop or two for the flavor with the usually unflavored eaa and or leucine powders.
 
Posted by brad yesterday on a study released a few days ago
 

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Posted by brad yesterday on a study released a few days ago

Correct...and what about all the studies which show that food PLUS leucine, including whey plus leucine, resulted in even greater protein synthesis rates than food/whey alone?

I think everyone knows that consuming just leucine without any other EAAs ("substrate") is an inferior approach to muscle growth, as we NEED all of the EAAs in order to synthesize new muscle tissue. However, since were talking about protein synthesis rates, the question in my mind is "does leucine, when added to food/whey, causes greater increases in protein synthesis compared to food/whey alone?" and the answer is yes.

So, this study, while interesting, does not really apply to the primary question posed in this thread, which is "does adding leucine to our regular protein sources provide additional benefit"?
 
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and what about all the studies which show that food PLUS leucine, including whey plus leucine, resulted in even greater protein synthesis rates than food/whey alone?
I recall the results being equal to food/whey. Specifically, ~6g whey + 2.5g leucine (that's only ~20 cals) had an identical MPS as a typical serving of whey (can't recall the serving size but I'm assuming ~40g). It's something to think about IMO more when cutting. Maybe in the morning to stimulate MPS immediately but a few hours before you have your first real meal of the day OR intraday between long gaps in your eating.
 
I recall the results being equal to food/whey. Specifically, ~6g whey + 2.5g leucine (that's only ~20 cals) had an identical MPS as a typical serving of whey (can't recall the serving size but I'm assuming ~40g). It's something to think about IMO more when cutting. Maybe in the morning to stimulate MPS immediately but a few hours before you have your first real meal of the day OR intraday between long gaps in your eating.

Yes, but that is not an equal (and therefore unfair) comparison, as the whey only group is consuming WAY more whey protein than the whey + leucine group. Furthermore, as shown in the previous study you posted, consuming leucine without additional EAA's does not increase protein synthesis to the same degree as leucine + EAAs. So, this study doesn't really apply it to the question at hand, which is "does whole food + leucine increase protein synthesis to a greater degree than equal amounts of whole food alone.

This study would be like comparing the protein synthesis rates of someone who takes 500 mg of testosterone to someone who takes only 50 mg of testosterone + 50 mg of trenbolone...and then concluding that adding trenbolone to testosterone does not result in additional increases in protein synthesis. In order for the comparison to be valid, the testosterone dose would need to be the same for both groups.

In the same way, you can't have one group consume only 6 grams of whey protein and another group consume 40 grams of whey, and then conclude that leucine supplies no additional benefit when added to whey protein. In order for a study to be relevant, we have to compare EQUAL amounts of whey, with only one of those groups supplementing with additional leucine.

There are also other studies which use equal, larger amounts of whey protein (20-40 grams, I believe) and adding leucine resulted in a greater increase in protein synthesis compared to consuming whey alone.

There are also studies comparing the protein synthesis rates of equal amounts of whey protein and whey protein hydrolysate...and the hydrolyzed whey protein group demonstrated greater increases in protein synthesis. Why? Because the leucine from the hydrolyzed whey was liberated and delivered into the bloodstream more quickly than the regular whey group. This is why adding leucine to food (or whey protein) results in a greater rate of protein synthesis--because it results in a higher concentration of leucine in the bloodstream (a critical factor in determining protein synthesis rates).

This is also why an equal amount of whey protein ALWAYS results in greater increase in protein synthesis compared to casein--because casein is digested so much more slowly (on a side note, casein is far superior at inhibiting protein breakdown, which is why every study comparing whey + casein to whey alone also showed a greater net protein gain in the whey + casein group; mother nature usually does it best).

...and don't forget, bodybuilders use a lot of other, much more slowly digesting protein sources, such as meat. The amino acids from these protein sources are liberated and delivered into the bloodstream much more slowly than free-form/peptide-bonded leucine, which is why adding leucine to whole food (especially meat) results in substantially greater increases in protein synthesis.


My main point is that adding leucine to whole food protein sources leads to a greater increase in protein synthesis...and until someone can explain to me why this additional increase in protein synthesis is irrelevant from a muscle building standpoint, I will continue to believe that supplemental leucine is beneficial.

I would like to see a study comparing larger amounts of whole food protein to an equal amount of whole food protein with additional leucine, such as 80-100 grams of meat protein. I am willing to bet that even when consuming that much meat protein, that supplementing with additional leucine will still result in greater increases in protein synthesis. Since few bodybuilders regularly consume more meat protein than that in a single sitting (most don't even eat that much per meal), it really doesn't matter if we could achieve comparable increases in protein synthesis (which I doubt) with that quantity of meat...and if it took even larger amounts of meat to achieve comparable results, it would be even more irrelevant, as no one is going to regularly consume that much meat protein in a single siting on a regular basis...and neither should they from a health standpoint (not to mention the misery associated with that type of diet).

So, even if it is just from a health and enjoyment standpoint alone, I will stick with my leucine.



As far as fat loss is concerned, yes, leucine is certainly a valuable aide for muscle maintenance when calories are low.
 
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Only time I really use aminos/bcaas is intra workout and the only reason is because I train very early in the morning before work so I can't really stomach food or a whey shake at that time. I find this beneficial to avoid catabolism and give me energy during the workout since I have it with hbcd, peptopro and a serve of bcaas. Might change the bcaas to just leucine though after reading MA's posts.

When consuming Leucine with whole food proteins (meat, chicken etc) would you consume it at the same time? or after finishing the meal? and how much Leucine would be recommended roughly per meal?
 
Only time I really use aminos/bcaas is intra workout and the only reason is because I train very early in the morning before work so I can't really stomach food or a whey shake at that time. I find this beneficial to avoid catabolism and give me energy during the workout since I have it with hbcd, peptopro and a serve of bcaas. Might change the bcaas to just leucine though after reading MA's posts.

When consuming Leucine with whole food proteins (meat, chicken etc) would you consume it at the same time? or after finishing the meal? and how much Leucine would be recommended roughly per meal?

Never mind have read the whole thread now and my questions were already answered lol shame on me for being lazy
 
Mike, forgive me if I missed it, but what's your protocol? When do you use leucine and how much of it do you use?

It really depends on the individual, their diet, and their circumstances (pre-contest vs. off-season, for instance).
 
Only time I really use aminos/bcaas is intra workout and the only reason is because I train very early in the morning before work so I can't really stomach food or a whey shake at that time. I find this beneficial to avoid catabolism and give me energy during the workout since I have it with hbcd, peptopro and a serve of bcaas. Might change the bcaas to just leucine though after reading MA's posts.

When consuming Leucine with whole food proteins (meat, chicken etc) would you consume it at the same time? or after finishing the meal? and how much Leucine would be recommended roughly per meal?

Switch to EAA over BCAA
 
Never heard of that but leucine is scientifically proven to work


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