NY Muscle,
With your keto/IF protocol I take it you don't consume carbs post-workout? I know Ori Hofmekler advises CPWO and states it's better for insulin sensitivity, GH release, and fat burning following a workout.
I've done CPWO before and am doing it again as I'm in a deficit. I know pre/peri/post workout nutrition is a huge deal to a lot of people, but I honestly never noticed any better results with those protocols. Like you, I've gone through long periods where I trained fasted due to a school or work schedule. I do take in BCAA's and citrulline malate which probably help, but I definitely prefer not having carbs pre-workout as I feel much better. And post-workout, as stated above, I never noticed any of these incredible results some people rave about by having tons of carbs.
My macros for keto:
Protein - 200 to 250 grams
Carbs - under 25 grams
Fat - varies daily, 50 to 100 grams
I don't like to use percentages but my macro % end up looking like: (as a percent of calories):
47.5% fat
47.5% protein
5% carbs.
Keep in mind percentages mean nothing... for example, use those % I just listed above and eat 10,000 cals a day = not good for fat loss.
My intermittent fasting routine is as follows:
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday I do 18:6. -> 12 noon and around 5/5:30pm are my only 2 meals.
Wednesday and Saturday I do a 24 hour fast and just eat once at dinner. (OMAD)
Some weeks I'll do 2-4 OMAD days, just depends on my mood and schedule.
Once in a while I'll do a 48 hour fast.
I train fasted in the AM around 7:30am so my "post workout" meal is no sooner than 12 noon and on some days its 5pm (OMAD).
I drink/consume nothing but water during my fasting window.
Sometimes I take a pre workout stim/pump powder or I'll just go with a few grams of sodium and thats it. Sometimes I take nothing.
Weve been sold a bullshit lie for decades about the "anabolic window" and self proclaimed gurus keep pushing this silliness.
For those still worried about not consuming food/protein right after your workout:
Protein timing:
Exercise improves the muscle protein synthetic response to protein ingestion. Therefore, it has been *suggested* that protein intake immediately post-exercise is more anabolic than protein ingestion at different time points.
Probably the best evidence to support the concept of protein timing is a study which showed that protein ingestion immediately after exercise was more effective (hence *ideal*) than protein ingestion 3 h post-exercise (though this study used the 2 pool arterio-venous method which is NOT a great measurement of muscle protein synthesis)
(
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/280/6/E982.long).
In contrast, a different study observed no difference in MPS was found when essential amino acid were ingested 1 h or 3 h post-exercise
(
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10658002).
***In addition, resistance exercise enhances the muscle protein synthetic response to protein ingestion for at least 24 hour*** ie; thats a big "anabolic window"
(
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204).
It is certainly possible that the synergy between exercise and protein ingestion is the largest immediately post-exercise and then slowly declines in the next 24 h hour. *However*, these data suggest that there is *not a limited window of opportunity* during which protein is massively beneficial immediately post-exercise, that suddenly closes within a couple of hours. (oh that bro-anabolic-window)
Overall, *no clear benefit* to protein timing has been found in studies measuring muscle protein synthesis studies. As such studies are much more sensitive to detect potential anabolic effects compared to long-term studies measuring changes in muscle mass, it unlikely that long-term studies will observe benefits of protein timing.
In agreement, a meta-analysis concluded that protein supplementation ≤ 1 hour before and/or after resistance exercise improved muscle mass gains
(
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24299050).
***However***, this effect was largely explained by the fact that the protein supplementation INCREASED TOTAL PROTEIN INTAKE (hint OMAD ), rather than the specific timing of protein intake.
Cliff notes: as long as total protein intake for the day is adequate, don’t worry when/how often you eat it, you won't lose muscle.
Fasted training doesn’t cause muscle loss as long as your daily protein intake is sufficient. And this holds true for both fasted cardio and fasted weightlifting.
For example, one 2013 study analyzed Muslim bodybuilders who continued to train during Ramadan. They found that those who trained in a fasted state during Ramadan experienced **no differences** in body composition or muscle loss when compared to subjects who trained in a fed state.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3639860/
******
Some other info on fasted training - in this case cardio/endurance:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283
Results:
VO2 max: Remember VO2 max is a measure of the maximum volume of oxygen that an athlete can use.
Fasted: +9.7% increase
Fed: +2.5% increase
The fasted group increased their VO2Max significantly more than the fed group.
Muscle glycogen content: shows how much glucose is stored in the muscle.
The sample was taken from vastus lateralis, a portion of the quads, since this was the main muscle exercised during the cycling sessions.
Fasted: +54.7% increase
Fed: +2.9% increase
“The main findings of the present study were that: training in an overnight-fasted state enhances storage of muscle glycogen compared to training in the fed state; skeletal muscle of men and women respond differently in terms of oxidative activity to training in the fed and overnight-fasted state; and peak VO2 and peak power improved more when training in the fasted state compared to the fed state.”
*******
Also this one on fasting training (weights) shows fasted training affects the post-workout anabolic response to weight training more favorably than fed-state training.
www.springerlink.com/content/w8712615714k8150/
Weight training activates enzymes and switches on genes that up regulates protein synthesis in muscles. Out of these signaling mechanisms, the phosphorylation, “activity” plainly speaking, of p70s6 kinase may serve as an indicator of muscle growth, along with other myogenic transcription factors.
Results:
Results revealed that the those who trained in the fasted state had twice as high levels of p70s6k in comparison to those who trained in a fed state when measured at the one-hour mark post-workout. Other myogenic transcription factors were also higher at this point, though not quite as pronounced as p70s6k. At the four-hour mark, the differences between the two groups had evened out.
Among other things, increased levels of p70s6k may lead to a faster transport of amino acids into the muscle cell membranes, which should lead to a more rapid and potent anabolic response to post-workout nutrient ingestion.
In the fed training group - p70s6k and the other myogenic transcription factors were ***inhibited*** after a pre-workout meal.
It seems that the increased anabolic activity seen post-workout is a compensatory response to the increased catabolism that occurs during fasted state training.
So training on an empty stomach will cause greater catabolism in the short run, but will it yield greater gains in the long run? Who knows, but yet again this shows there is no negative to training in a fasted state and in *some* cases *may* be better? Who knows....
But yet again, no one is losing muscle training fasted. More broscience myth and fear mongering.
Add this to the recent (2018) small study (in women) that compared working out fasted vs fed, BOTH groups gained muscle:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1440244018303438
That being said, not losing muscle aside, ideally if gaining max muscle mass was the only goal then I would recommend a few meals a day and not just 1 or 2. You wont lose muscle my way but could be missing out on a more ideal design to gain max muscle possible and better digestion spreading intake over a few neals when eating tons of protein.
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