Been training with too many machines!?

[Elvia1023]

My opinion . . .

Muscular soreness is not an indicator muscular growth. We know to induce it and we
know how to avoid it.

If you take an elevator to the top of the tall building and walk down your legs will
be sore within 48 hours or less; maybe that night or later that day (me), perhaps the
nest day (most common) but they will get sore. Conversely, it you walk to the top of
a tall building and take the elevator down your legs will not get sore; fatigued and
tired, yes. But not sore.

An eccentric movement is primarily responsible for muscular soreness (think lowering)
and muscular strength and growth. While a concentric contraction (think pushing) will
produce little to no muscular soreness. A isometric / static 'contraction' (holding) will
induce almost crippling muscular soreness but will do little if anything in the way of
promoting muscular growth.

(I can remember long road trips in the Spring when I was rock climbing in Yosemite or
Joshua Tree. The first 2 - 3 days of climbing my forearms would be brutally sore; sore
to the touch. And all I did was hold a static contraction; sometimes, many times longer
than I wanted. )

Some exercises will make you crazy sore (me, squats), some exercises will induce zero
muscular soreness regardless of how you preform them (everybody, leg extensions).

Muscular soreness does not indicate or is responsible for certain portion of a muscles
growth. It will provide soreness to a particular area that is under stress as in doing
'preacher curls' which will most definitely make the lower part of your biceps sore
but will not result in any muscular growth localized to the lower biceps. So do not use
muscular soreness as a means of determining the 'effects' of an exercise, believing that
that both the location and the degree of soreness is valuable for evaluating an exercises
productively.

Below some interesting thoughts on muscle soreness by Arthur Jones. (And don't shoot
the messenger.)

"Nobody really knows anything about muscular soreness apart from the fact that it is
misnamed. The working part of a muscle, the contractile tissues, do not have the type
of nerves required to either record or transmit pain; so, in a very real sense, it is not
the ''muscle” that feels pain. But, as we all know, “something” damned sure can get
sore as a result of exercise. It has been suggested that it is the connective tissues that
experience such pain, but that is pure guesswork at best. It has also been suggested
that such soreness results from damage to the muscle fibers; but that suggestion is
wrong for two obvious reasons: one, muscle fibers cannot feel pain; two, while it is true
that a hard exercise performed after a long layoff usually will produce muscular soreness,
it is also true that an equally hard exercise performed the following day will reduce
the degree of soreness.

So, if one hard exercise produced “damage,” then two hard exercises should produce
more damage and thereby make the soreness worse. But that does not happen.
If, after a long layoff from exercise, you perform a hard first workout on a Monday,
then 24 hours later you will have If, after a long layoff from exercise, you perform a
hard first workout on a Monday, then 24 hours later you will have “some,” but not
much, muscular soreness; and 48 hours after the workout it will be a lot worse;
and the degree of soreness will increase day by day for a period of five to six days,
eventually reach a peak, and then gradually go away. Assuming, that is, that you
perform only one exercise and then quit. The soreness from that one hard workout
will not be entirely gone for at least a week, and may last for ten days.

But if, instead, you perform a hard workout every day for three or four days in a row,
then the resulting soreness will not be as bad as it would have been from only one
workout, and it will go away faster. Thus it is obvious that the first workout causes
the soreness but that following workouts tend to reduce and remove the soreness.
so I believe we can scrap the theory about damage to the muscle."

The full article here: http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/First_Half/49.PDF

I agree with your post but one thing that that stood out was stating that leg extensions will generally not induce muscle soreness. I don't think it's a matter of exercise/movement but moreso intensity and volume. Any movement can cause soreness but it's about how you do that movement. Now everyone is different but most people also don't train brutally hard. Now even if they do if they do it all the time that will reduce doms because your body adapts. Now if that person had 6 weeks out of the gym and trained legs brutally hard they wouldn't be able to walk properly the next day... I think that can apply to everyone. If they train brutally hard every 3 days it changes things as some may get sore but many will experience no doms especially if all other factors (diet, sleep, drugs etc) are in place. I know you know all of this but just that one comment that stood out. It all depends upon intensity and volume. A guy may train brutally hard all the time but if he adds in 5 working sets or perhaps a new movement (lunges for example) that could be enough to create bad doms.

Granted leg extensions are an isolation movement and they won't have the same overall impact of a squat but they can be just as brutal it's just how you perform the movement. I bet I could take a guy on here and he does his usual leg workout with me then I make him to leg extensions only and I bet he is sore the next day. Now I wouldn't recommend people do this but if my sole aim was to make him sore it would be possible. Having a guy even just doing 1 massive drop set could be enough. A set were he wants to fail 1/3 of the way through and you have him drop the weight multiple times and do assisted and partials reps and static holds and he probably won't be able to walk the next day especially if he has never done anything like that before.

 

[alfresco]

Elvia,

I get what you are saying, and you can bet all you want, but all I can say is just try it.

Take some real extended time off from the gym (or just don't train legs for a month
or two, should not be hard for most people ) and then go back to gym and do no
other exercise for your legs except leg extensions; nothing before or after. Do them
as hard as humanly possible, as many sets as you want, any way you want (i.e.,
intensity and volume), and then let us know. You just might surprise yourself.

 

[Elvia1023]

Elvia,

I get what you are saying, and you can bet all you want, but all I can say is just try it.

Take some real extended time off from the gym (or just don't train legs for a month
or two, should not be hard for most people ) and then go back to gym and do no
other exercise for your legs except leg extensions; nothing before or after. Do them
as hard as humanly possible, as many sets as you want, any way you want (i.e.,
intensity and volume), and then let us know. You just might surprise yourself.

I have done leg extenions only before. I have done 1 movement per bodypart many times. Now everyone is different and some get sore over nothing and others don't get sore after many hard sets of squats, leg press and lunges. But most also won't go past a certain pain point and that is a huge factor. I have done a set of leg extensions until I am on the floor shaking and I can't physically stand up. Then my quads start cramping up on my way back from the gym and I have to sit down because I can't physically walk. My quads are always super sore 2 days after doing a workout like that. So I won't be surprising myself as I have done it many times.

I think you can get sore from any movement it just depends upon volume and intensity. You made the example of your forearms and climbing. You can train your bi-ceps/forearms hard in the gym and no soreness but you go and climb for hours and you get really sore. That is an extreme example and there are many extreme examples as long as you perform a movement in the gym a certain way. What about if you do wrist curls until you can't even hold the bar then you wait and do set after set putting everything into it... until your forearms cramp up in horrible pain... then you do another set... I bet your forearms will be sore the next day. It's just a matter of extremes. Now I don't recommend this for actual muscle growth/results but I know 100% I am correct in this and I have done this with many people.

Ok so when the gyms open up again please do this for me. Do 10 sets of leg extensions to complete failure. I don't mean till it hurts and you stop. Do them until you can't even lift your legs 3 inches. Do partials until your legs are shaking and don't stop until you are screaming out. You don't even need heavy weight just extreme intensity. Do it until you can't stand up and have to lie down on the floor. Do it until you can literally do no more. Then go home eat and sleep etc. Let me know if your legs are sore the following days. You just might surprise yourself

 

[concreter]

Im Sore from Every Workout when Trying to Grow.
If Im Not I didn't hit it hard enough to stimulate new Growth!
I switch exercises Now constantly! as I found the only other way to Get Bigger is to lift Heavier and at My Age or any other can lead to Injury!!!
I think its a DOMs is a Great indicator of Growth!
Bro-Science is On Hand experience which in My Mind Blows away the Scientists Test Tube!
All Summer, I pump Iron..Just to Maintain my muscle. No Soreness..

 

[Alzadosghost]

There has been some debate lately about this being one of the reasons physiques look so much different today then in the past. That hard grainy, deep lines and striated look hardly exists like it did in the 90's and even earlier. You see a lot of the top 20 guys training primarily with machines and perhaps not activating those stabilizer muscles like free weights do. Maybe this is one of the reasons why we see something lacking in development these days?

I don’t think so. Graininess and deep striations are from several things. Genetics,diet,drugs and discipline. I know my body grows just fine from machines. Injuries forced me to use them a lot and they work. That’s just like guys saying you can’t grow legs without squatting. But lots of great legs have been built w o squats. Free motion machines and hammer strength have been awesome.

 

[The Runner]

Crazy how using machines for shoulders does not come close to free weights. Been using machines for months and when I tried free weights, I had to drop the weight drastically. Free weights definitely require more than machines,but I can still get a good workout in.

 

[alfresco]

I have done leg extenions only before. I have done 1 movement per bodypart many times. Now everyone is different and some get sore over nothing and others don't get sore after many hard sets of squats, leg press and lunges. But most also won't go past a certain pain point and that is a huge factor. I have done a set of leg extensions until I am on the floor shaking and I can't physically stand up. Then my quads start cramping up on my way back from the gym and I have to sit down because I can't physically walk. My quads are always super sore 2 days after doing a workout like that. So I won't be surprising myself as I have done it many times.

I think you can get sore from any movement it just depends upon volume and intensity. You made the example of your forearms and climbing. You can train your bi-ceps/forearms hard in the gym and no soreness but you go and climb for hours and you get really sore. That is an extreme example and there are many extreme examples as long as you perform a movement in the gym a certain way. What about if you do wrist curls until you can't even hold the bar then you wait and do set after set putting everything into it... until your forearms cramp up in horrible pain... then you do another set... I bet your forearms will be sore the next day. It's just a matter of extremes. Now I don't recommend this for actual muscle growth/results but I know 100% I am correct in this and I have done this with many people.

Ok so when the gyms open up again please do this for me. Do 10 sets of leg extensions to complete failure. I don't mean till it hurts and you stop. Do them until you can't even lift your legs 3 inches. Do partials until your legs are shaking and don't stop until you are screaming out. You don't even need heavy weight just extreme intensity. Do it until you can't stand up and have to lie down on the floor. Do it until you can literally do no more. Then go home eat and sleep etc. Let me know if your legs are sore the following days. You just might surprise yourself

I rarely, seldom, if ever, go back and forth like this. This is an exception,
consider yourself one of the lucky ones

We seem to have reached an impasse, a failure to effectively communicate
on my part no doubt.

Finally . . .

Avoid, do not do any exercise for legs for a month or more (very
important), or wrangle a new trainee who has never lifted weights
in his life. Then put him through a routine like you described and
see what happens. And not do any other exercise for the legs
except leg extensions. That is the only way to determine, isolate
the true effect regarding muscular soreness due to this exercise.

I believe that further communication on this subject between you
and I would not be productive.

I am going dark now.

 

[rAJJIN]

I can tell you for me I had been doing a lot of leg press- leg extension- leg curl
Etc. it’s all nothing compared to the free weight squat.

 

[Elvia1023]

I rarely, seldom, if ever, go back and forth like this. This is an exception,
consider yourself one of the lucky ones

We seem to have reached an impasse, a failure to effectively communicate
on my part no doubt.

Finally . . .

Avoid, do not do any exercise for legs for a month or more (very
important), or wrangle a new trainee who has never lifted weights
in his life. Then put him through a routine like you described and
see what happens. And not do any other exercise for the legs
except leg extensions. That is the only way to determine, isolate
the true effect regarding muscular soreness due to this exercise.

I believe that further communication on this subject between you
and I would not be productive.

I am going dark now.

I agree.

Now everyone is different but as I already posted I have done what you state and I don't think you have so maybe you should try multiple sets of leg extensions only. Again it's not so much the movement but the intensity so if you don't train hard it's a mute point. It's true I have only done that on a handful of times using my mates limited gym but I have done it to know. Now I have done quite a lot of leg workouts which just consisted of calf raises, leg curls and leg extensions. Depending upon how hard I trained I would have sore muscles if I really pushed. The sore muscles would usually be my quads and hams and it wasn't the leg curls making my quads sore. Unless I haven't trained them for awhile (which is extremely rare) I have to pretty much abuse my calves (drop sets and negative holds etc) for them to be sore the next day so they can be an exception if I have just done a "normal" workout. Anyway have a nice day.

 

[Elvia1023]

I can tell you for me I had been doing a lot of leg press- leg extension- leg curl
Etc. it’s all nothing compared to the free weight squat.

I completely generally agree. You can overload the weight with squats and they work so many muscles including stabilizers as well so the potential to be sore is maximized. Although one benefit for machines in regards to creating soreness is you can really push failure/intensity because you can go crazy without fear so can end with partials etc so inflicting maximum damage. I should add working out just to be sore is pointless but it's simply a byproduct of that type of training. I 100% agree those movements can't compare to a big free weight movement. Now on the subject of leg extensions they can be useful as you are loading the quad muscle only with a lot of weight without other muscles taking over. If you train quads only the overall soreness won't be as bad which is just common sense. Train quads, hams, glutes, hips etc and the potential of not being able to walk the next day is greater

As others have posted in regards to just soreness your past is also a massive factor. Whenever I do a movement or workout after a long break the soreness will always be maximized. That's why I don't think it's an indicator of muscle growth. We could run for 5 hours and are legs will be super sore the next day for example. I will say I rememeber not doing lunges for about 1 year and one day I decided to add them in and some brutal sets and that was probably the most sore I have ever been in my life. Although back to isolation machine movements get a guy to do some hip ad/abductors only if they aren't used to them and they probably won't be able to walk the next day.

 

[saudades]

I always use machines and cables when working chest. Today I used DBs and I couldn't believe how unstable I was when pressing. It took 4 sets until I found my groove. The pump was good.
Curious to see how I feel tomorrow.

That was my experience, too. Went to do flat and incline bench and found it was hard to stabilize 135 when I can typically load up a machine pretty heavy. I've been working back up gradually with the free weight, but I was very surprised at how difficult it was to hold the weight steady. Soreness wasn't really that different in the major muscles, but I was sore in a few places that weren't sore before.

 

[saudades]

There has been some debate lately about this being one of the reasons physiques look so much different today then in the past. That hard grainy, deep lines and striated look hardly exists like it did in the 90's and even earlier. You see a lot of the top 20 guys training primarily with machines and perhaps not activating those stabilizer muscles like free weights do. Maybe this is one of the reasons why we see something lacking in development these days?

I would have to agree about the lacking in development if they have only been using machines. After "rediscovering" free weight flat and incline bench, I feel that my pecs have developed a little more fuller than they were. I can only attribute that to the additional training of the stabilizing muscles.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

That was my experience, too. Went to do flat and incline bench and found it was hard to stabilize 135 when I can typically load up a machine pretty heavy. I've been working back up gradually with the free weight, but I was very surprised at how difficult it was to hold the weight steady. Soreness wasn't really that different in the major muscles, but I was sore in a few places that weren't sore before.

agreed. For pressing I'll be sore in strange places like in my armpit under the pec attachment point and along the serratus and deeper in the rotator cuff like in the subscap, after I switch to free weights from machines for awhile. I prefer free weights actually, feels safer to me because I can't overload them so much. I'd prefer if all those weird small stabilizer muscles get strong also from lifting.

Anyway, these days, all I have at home is a barbell and bench and plates, so its free weights for me, I hate wasting time driving back and forth from gyms regardless of our current virus situation

 

[nothuman]

I would have to agree about the lacking in development if they have only been using machines. After "rediscovering" free weight flat and incline bench, I feel that my pecs have developed a little more fuller than they were. I can only attribute that to the additional training of the stabilizing muscles.

hey Saudades, are you not able to receive pm’s? I tried to message you

 

[maldorf]

I haven't taken a full week off from training in such along time. Its just what I do and part of who I am. I was planning on taking a week or two off since my gym is closed but dug out all my iron and set my home gym back up. The last couple days I have been using free weights and DB's and man am I sore today. I can feel every body part I have hit. I use a lot of machines at the gym these days over free weights and DB's and while I get good workouts and decent gains I haven't been this sore in quite some time. I think I'm on to something here and point proven that sometimes change is a good thing.

I had the exact same experience. My chest has never been so sore, not in years. I guess a lot of machines really aren't as good as free weights. I could really feel the muscle working too as I did the movement.

 

[NEMSZ]

I know this is unconventional for this forum but KETTLEBELLS...

Those fucking things, even the 26lbs get me sore as fuck in muscles I didn’t even know I was able to use..

I think everyone should throw in at least one day a week of some good kettlebell workouts, it’s great for cardio/conditioning and great for all kinds of muscle development and functional fitness.. I feel like a guy who can do Turkish Getups with 70+lbs is probably a lot stronger than a guy who can bench 300lbs or whatever overall.. I’ve rolled with some of those types of guys and they feel like gorillas lol...

On a side note for “bodybuilding” with kettlebells I’ve actually noticed some great development in my forearms without directly hitting them and also, sounds weird but even the muscles in my hands.. Legit, my hands look more muscular than they used to be before doing kettlebells lol..

 

[USMuscle9403]

I know this is unconventional for this forum but KETTLEBELLS...

Those fucking things, even the 26lbs get me sore as fuck in muscles I didn’t even know I was able to use..

I think everyone should throw in at least one day a week of some good kettlebell workouts, it’s great for cardio/conditioning and great for all kinds of muscle development and functional fitness.. I feel like a guy who can do Turkish Getups with 70+lbs is probably a lot stronger than a guy who can bench 300lbs or whatever overall.. I’ve rolled with some of those types of guys and they feel like gorillas lol...

On a side note for “bodybuilding” with kettlebells I’ve actually noticed some great development in my forearms without directly hitting them and also, sounds weird but even the muscles in my hands.. Legit, my hands look more muscular than they used to be before doing kettlebells lol..

Kettlebells are awesome.

But you do Turkish Getups? Willingly?

... You're a better man than I.

 

[Elvia1023]

I know this is unconventional for this forum but KETTLEBELLS...

Those fucking things, even the 26lbs get me sore as fuck in muscles I didn’t even know I was able to use..

I think everyone should throw in at least one day a week of some good kettlebell workouts, it’s great for cardio/conditioning and great for all kinds of muscle development and functional fitness.. I feel like a guy who can do Turkish Getups with 70+lbs is probably a lot stronger than a guy who can bench 300lbs or whatever overall.. I’ve rolled with some of those types of guys and they feel like gorillas lol...

On a side note for “bodybuilding” with kettlebells I’ve actually noticed some great development in my forearms without directly hitting them and also, sounds weird but even the muscles in my hands.. Legit, my hands look more muscular than they used to be before doing kettlebells lol..

Yes they can be great. The thicker handles really make a difference. I think it's also simply about doing movements you don't do a lot as well. Meaning if you used kettlebells daily for months straight and nothing else the soreness would soon go away. Alot of people when using kettlebells also do much more functional training with Turkish Getups being a prime example. They are moving through space with free weight so that will always be better than using a machine (just as squats are generally better than a machine leg press). I completely agree about the strength thing you posted as well. Some guys can press a huge weight so are super strong moving weight from A to B but in regards to functional strength they are nowhere as impressive. They lack mobility and strength endurance and maybe even core strength. I done about 500 x 7.5kg db (just 1 db) calf raises yesterday and my calves are super sore today.

 

[buck]

I have found over the years that any new training stimulus can make me sore for a while. whether it be trying a new machine or free weight. Or even a different approach to cardio. But it doesn't last long. These days bands are making me feel places that I haven't felt in a long time if ever. But I would expect that to change soon. But time will tell.

 

[NEMSZ]

Kettlebells are awesome.

But you do Turkish Getups? Willingly?

... You're a better man than I.

It’s probably the one of the exercises I hate the most lol but you know what they say; resistance points to true north. So it’s one of the exercises I try to apply the most..

Though the past 2-3 weeks I’ve been admittedly a lazy fuck.. I’ve still worked out 4-5x a week but just been going through the motions with other movements.. Getting back to it hard this week..