How about taking any other natural diuretics Alex?
I disagree with your statement that androgenic cycles cause water and fat retention. This is just not true.
Btw I heard a few people take a diurtetic every month for 3 days during a big cycle, just to assess the amount of water or fat they are holding and to see how they look. Does anyone else do that?
That's exactly what I was saying!Are you saying that you don't get all swollen while on test or dbol?
That's exactly what I was saying!
Now when talking dose then this is where the problems occur. Too high a dose or too much total androgen intake leads to aromatisation. When this happens you get high estrogen levels. High estorgen leads to fat storage and water retention. This is why I have never been a big fan of high weekly doses. But if kept to a dose that allows good solid gains and little to no sides (it is possible) then you get no bloat, no excess fat. You get a high anabolic state in the body which is highly conducive to fat burning and muscle building. Also as mentioned sodium intake and balance is a must to avoid water retention probs. I do not avoid salt but I do not go out of my way to add salt either. Stay away from saturated fats also, these are absolutely the worst kind while ON let alone under normal conditions. I tend to drink inordinate amounts of water if cycling. Like 10 liters a day! Yes i piss a lot but it is good for you in the long run. It gets your system used to dealing with water very efficiently and you generally will have no need to store water (retention).How good for you, bro. Myself, I need to get shoes 1 size bigger while on high gear!:D
Now when talking dose then this is where the problems occur. Too high a dose or too much total androgen intake leads to aromatisation. When this happens you get high estrogen levels. High estorgen leads to fat storage and water retention. This is why I have never been a big fan of high weekly doses. But if kept to a dose that allows good solid gains and little to no sides (it is possible) then you get no bloat, no excess fat. You get a high anabolic state in the body which is highly conducive to fat burning and muscle building. Also as mentioned sodium intake and balance is a must to avoid water retention probs. I do not avoid salt but I do not go out of my way to add salt either. Stay away from saturated fats also, these are absolutely the worst kind while ON let alone under normal conditions. I tend to drink inordinate amounts of water if cycling. Like 10 liters a day! Yes i piss a lot but it is good for you in the long run. It gets your system used to dealing with water very efficiently and you generally will have no need to store water (retention).
Now when talking dose then this is where the problems occur. Too high a dose or too much total androgen intake leads to aromatisation. When this happens you get high estrogen levels. High estorgen leads to fat storage and water retention. This is why I have never been a big fan of high weekly doses. But if kept to a dose that allows good solid gains and little to no sides (it is possible) then you get no bloat, no excess fat. You get a high anabolic state in the body which is highly conducive to fat burning and muscle building. Also as mentioned sodium intake and balance is a must to avoid water retention probs. I do not avoid salt but I do not go out of my way to add salt either. Stay away from saturated fats also, these are absolutely the worst kind while ON let alone under normal conditions. I tend to drink inordinate amounts of water if cycling. Like 10 liters a day! Yes i piss a lot but it is good for you in the long run. It gets your system used to dealing with water very efficiently and you generally will have no need to store water (retention).
I don't believe estrogen causes fat gain, especially in combination with high androgen levels. Estrogen increases lipolysis in fact. It does influence the pattern of fat distribution though.
It's rarely as simple as one hormone being the difference between a male and a female for example. There are other hormones that are lipogenic, like progesterone. If you search pubmed you can see estrogen is lipolytic, enhancing fat mobilization.Can you explain the difference in body compostion in males vs. females then?
Here it says estrogen has similar effects as test and GH on lipid metabolism:J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3592-9.
Estrogen supplementation reduces whole body leucine and carbohydrate oxidation and increases lipid oxidation in men during endurance exercise.
Hamadeh MJ, Devries MC, Tarnopolsky MA.
Department of Pediatrics and Medicine, McMaster University Medical Center, 1200 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8N 3Z5.
Healthy active men exhibit higher rates of carbohydrate (CHO) and leucine oxidation and lower rates of lipid oxidation compared with their female counterparts both at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. We postulated that this reduced dependence on amino acids as a fuel source in women was due to the female sex hormone estrogen. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over design, we investigated the effect of supplementing 12 recreationally active men with estrogen on whole body substrate oxidation and leucine kinetics at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. Subjects cycled for 90 min at an intensity of 65% maximum O(2) consumption after 8 d of either estrogen supplementation (2 mg 17beta-estradiol/d) or placebo (polycose). After a 2-wk washout period, they repeated the test after 8 d of the alternate treatment. On the test day, after a primed continuous infusion of l-[(13)C]leucine, O(2) consumption, CO(2) production, steady-state breath (13)CO(2), and plasma alpha-[(13)C]ketoisocaproate enrichments were measured at rest and at 60, 75, and 90 min during exercise in the postabsorptive state. Exercise increased energy expenditure more than 5-fold, CHO oxidation more than 6-fold, lipid oxidation more than 4-fold, and leucine oxidation 2.2-fold (all P < 0.0001), whereas it decreased the ratio of lipid to CHO oxidation by 50-70% (P = 0.003) compared with values at rest. Estrogen supplementation decreased respiratory exchange ratio during exercise (P = 0.03). Estrogen supplementation significantly decreased CHO oxidation by 5-16% (P = 0.04) and leucine oxidation by 16% (P = 0.01), whereas it significantly increased lipid oxidation by 22-44% (P = 0.024) at rest and during exercise. We conclude that estrogen influences fuel source selection at rest and during endurance exercise in recreationally active men, characterized by a reduced dependence on amino acids and CHO and an increased reliance on lipids as a fuel source.
Hum Reprod. 1997 Oct;12 Suppl 1:21-5.Links
Hormonal control of regional fat distribution.
Björntorp P.
Department of Heart and Lung Diseases, Sahlgren's Hospital, University of Göteborg, Sweden.
Hormones exert powerful influences on body fat distribution in humans. Studies under fully controlled conditions in vitro have indicated that cortisol and insulin facilitate lipid accumulation by expressing lipoprotein lipase (LPL). Growth hormone (GH) abolishes this and turns metabolism towards lipid mobilization. Testosterone and GH inhibit LPL and stimulate lipolysis markedly. Cortisol effects are mediated via a glucocorticoid receptor, and testosterone effects via an androgen receptor, the density of which appears to be higher in visceral than subcutaneous adipose tissue. The receptor-mediated effects are probably expressed via transcription of appropriate genes. The female sex steroids also regulate adipose tissue metabolism, but apparently not directly in the absence of specific cellular receptors. Oestrogens seem to exert net effects similar to those of testosterone. These results of cellular studies agree well with in-vivo studies of triglyceride uptake and turnover in different adipose tissue regions. Furthermore, clinical entities with characteristic disturbances in hormone levels show the expected redistribution patterns.
Metabolism. 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50.Click here to read Links
The effect of testosterone aromatization on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level and postheparin lipolytic activity.
Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD.
Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI.
Stanozolol, an oral 17 alpha-alkylated androgen, increases hepatic triglyceride lipase activity (HTGLA) and decreases high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels, whereas intramuscular testosterone has comparatively little effect. In the present study, we tested the hypothesis that aromatization of androgen to estrogen blunts the lipid and lipase effects of exogenous testosterone. Fourteen male weightlifters received testosterone enanthate (200 mg/wk intramuscularly), the aromatase inhibitor testolactone (250 mg four times per day), or both drugs together in a randomized cross-over design. Serum testosterone level increased during all three drug treatments, whereas estradiol level increased only with testosterone alone (+47%, P < .05), demonstrating that testolactone effectively inhibited testosterone aromatization. Testosterone decreased HDL-C(-16%, P < .05), HDL2-C(-23%, NS), and apoprotein (apo) A-I (-12%, P < .05) levels, effects that were consistently but not significantly greater with simultaneous testosterone and testolactone administration (HDL-C, -20%; HDL2-C, -30%; apo A-I, -15%; P < .05 for all). In contrast, both testosterone regimens decreased HDL3-C levels by 13% (P < .05 for both). HTGLA increased 21% during testosterone treatment and 38% during combined testosterone and testolactone treatment (P < .01 for both). Lipoprotein lipase activity (LPLA) increased only during combined testosterone and testolactone treatment (+31%, P < .01), suggesting that estrogen production may counteract the effects of testosterone on LPLA. Testolactone alone had little effect on any lipid, lipoprotein, apoprotein, or lipase concentration.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)