“Health phase”

[Fleezy]

I guess - even though it’s largely individual, I should ask everyone what doses they can run of what substances - that allow their blood markers to get back to essentially normal

Part of the name of the game of bodybuilding is anabolic steroids… so imo, our goal should be to see how much we can possibly run while still remaining decently healthy

On this subject, so far I’ve seen someone use 100mg test e with 600mg deca, and have their markers return to normal

Any thoughts?

 

[slesh]

Don’t even get me started on this shit. When I hear someone say “I’m cruising at 500mgs” I want to throw a dumbbell at their head.

 

[KillerStack]

Please speculate on the following. Does someone like Nick Walker do "health phases"?I say yes and no. Yes he may drop drugs such as orals or things that are thought of as extra toxic, after shows. But the total dose is steady steady. The dial has been turned to upper tolerable limit and there is little use for yo-yoing the dose. Even from a health standpoint going up and down in dose and bodyweight might not be the best strategy.

Some of the gurus claim they use and have used a strategy of coming off completely at times and even recomnend "PCT" Lol. It may be true for some in a very limited context. But some may find it's just unnessesarily stressful. Lose size and then you have to play catch-up.

 

[Fleezy]

Don’t even get me started on this shit. When I hear someone say “I’m cruising at 500mgs” I want to throw a dumbbell at their head.

why?

 

[slesh]

why?

Lol that’s not a cruise. Dude’s saying “I’m on high TRT.” It’s laughable. And to the points above - oh cool your CBC and metabolic panel are ok… but there’s so much more going on in your body than that basic blood work. Reminds me of a thread I was reading the other day when @luki7788 talks about having issues with his bile ducts but his Billubrium and other liver values were on point.

Long story short - 500mgs of Test isn’t a “health phase”. And I’m not saying not to run 500mgs in the off-season - do whatever the fuck you want - my point is people need to stop lying to themselves. I run a vial of GH a day - my blood work is clean as fuck but do you really think I don’t have long term concerns about issues that may not be showing up on a $150 basic blood test from privatemdlabs lol…

 

[bg65]

this is not a problem - in Poland this disease is called "athlete's heart" and it is a normal process - the walls of the left ventricle become thicker and larger to be able to pump more blood - the heart is also a muscle

In general, I see that some people would like to be muscular and at the same time fully healthy - this is not possible - in life there is always something a basket of something else

I totally agree w your second statement but some caution needed with your first.

The LVH seen in an "athletic heart" is eccentric- the volume of the LV increases but the mass/thickness of the LV wall should not increase very much. The wall of the LV should still be around 1 cm or so thick. I believe greater than 1.1cm is considered an abnormally thick LV wall. In athletic LVH the myocyte contractile units run parallel to the endo- and epicardium. This adaptation is to increase cardiac ouput.

The walls of the LV becoming thicker and larger is more consistent with concentric LVH and this is pathologic. This is typically a response to increased afterload (HTN being a cause of increased afterload) and as you pointed out, the heart is a muscle so this process could be amplified in an AAS user. In this process the new myocyte contractile units are arranged more perpendicular to the endo- and epicardium and while this adaptation works for a time the LV eventually becomes stiff and can result in diastolic heart failure. Also, as the LV walls become thicker this reduces the LV volume so cardiac output would actually be less for a given heart rate.
This is why fairly regular echocardiograms are so important, if someone is developing concentric LVH they need to figure that shit out fast, it can reach a point of no return (the heart can no longer remodel in the right direction)
So, eccentric LVH increases chamber size but not wall thickness to increase volume and cardiac output. Concentric hypertrophy is generally a response to increased afterload and does not serve to increase cardiac output, only to overcome the increased afterload

 

[mslmn]

Lol that’s not a cruise. Dude’s saying “I’m on high TRT.” It’s laughable. And to the points above - oh cool your CBC and metabolic panel are ok… but there’s so much more going on in your body than that basic blood work. Reminds me of a thread I was reading the other day when @luki7788 talks about having issues with his bile ducts but his Billubrium and other liver values were on point.

Long story short - 500mgs of Test isn’t a “health phase”. And I’m not saying not to run 500mgs in the off-season - do whatever the fuck you want - my point is people need to stop lying to themselves. I run a vial of GH a day - my blood work is clean as fuck but do you really think I don’t have long term concerns about issues that may not be showing up on a $150 basic blood test from privatemdlabs lol…

Your confusing cruise with trt, like a lot of people do. Some blast then come back down to trt, while others blast and then cruise on say 1/4 or less than their normal blast.

 

[Fleezy]

Lol that’s not a cruise. Dude’s saying “I’m on high TRT.” It’s laughable. And to the points above - oh cool your CBC and metabolic panel are ok… but there’s so much more going on in your body than that basic blood work. Reminds me of a thread I was reading the other day when @luki7788 talks about having issues with his bile ducts but his Billubrium and other liver values were on point.

Long story short - 500mgs of Test isn’t a “health phase”. And I’m not saying not to run 500mgs in the off-season - do whatever the fuck you want - my point is people need to stop lying to themselves. I run a vial of GH a day - my blood work is clean as fuck but do you really think I don’t have long term concerns about issues that may not be showing up on a $150 basic blood test from privatemdlabs lol…

Why can’t 500mg if test be a health phase - if it allows all health markers to return to normal?

 

[need4tren]

@Swiper doing "cruise" on 2g test and 5iu gh he had blood results and other tests practically perfect - and I know many people who feel the same way

I can also see from my boys that during the preparations for the competition they often have better blood results than during the offseason - today knowledge and supplementation are so developed that it is possible to limit or prevent some side effects to a very large extent

I think his cruise was 1g tear 5iu gh and his blasts were 2g test 10iu gh

But even with that dose his bloods shouldn’t be that skewed

 

[luki7788]

I think his cruise was 1g tear 5iu gh and his blasts were 2g test 10iu gh

But even with that dose his bloods shouldn’t be that skewed

it was at the beginning and after a few years he was already doing crusie on 1g e3d test - check his topic on rxmuscle

 

[KillerStack]

I totally agree w your second statement but some caution needed with your first.

The LVH seen in an "athletic heart" is eccentric- the volume of the LV increases but the mass/thickness of the LV wall should not increase very much. The wall of the LV should still be around 1 cm or so thick. I believe greater than 1.1cm is considered an abnormally thick LV wall. In athletic LVH the myocyte contractile units run parallel to the endo- and epicardium. This adaptation is to increase cardiac ouput.

The walls of the LV becoming thicker and larger is more consistent with concentric LVH and this is pathologic. This is typically a response to increased afterload (HTN being a cause of increased afterload) and as you pointed out, the heart is a muscle so this process could be amplified in an AAS user. In this process the new myocyte contractile units are arranged more perpendicular to the endo- and epicardium and while this adaptation works for a time the LV eventually becomes stiff and can result in diastolic heart failure. Also, as the LV walls become thicker this reduces the LV volume so cardiac output would actually be less for a given heart rate.
This is why fairly regular echocardiograms are so important, if someone is developing concentric LVH they need to figure that shit out fast, it can reach a point of no return (the heart can no longer remodel in the right direction)
So, eccentric LVH increases chamber size but not wall thickness to increase volume and cardiac output. Concentric hypertrophy is generally a response to increased afterload and does not serve to increase cardiac output, only to overcome the increased afterload

Are you familiar with Alex Kikel? If yes, what do you think about his protocols for "fixing" heart issues? My opinion, ok if things look hopeless and you are down to do it, go ahead. But still, I'm a bit uneasy about it. Alex keeps saying everything is plastic and fixable. A bit optimistic to say the least.

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[juggy38]

Realistically, most guys aren't doing just 200mg and 3iu GH. Thats pretty much TRT. Majority of the guys I know that use the term health phase are using double that. The standard nowadays is 4-500mg test or 200 test 200 primo alongside 5iu GH.

I went down to 125mg last time. Not sure what I'll do this time being that my goals are different.

That is my point…our bodybuilding “health phase” is insane and reckless to 99% of people on the planet.

Calling it a heath phase is playing into a delusion

 

[danieltx]

That is my point…our bodybuilding “health phase” is insane and reckless to 99% of people on the planet.

Calling it a heath phase is playing into a delusion

Serious bodybuilding has to be insane and reckless. Lifting super heavy weights, putting down endless amounts of food, all the PEDs, etc.

The average American non-bodybuilder is just as insane and reckless. They eat a garbage diet, are chronically dehydrated, the majority are overweight or obese, chronically high blood sugar leading to diabetes, uncontrolled high blood pressure, 0 physical exercise, etc. Look at the explosion in colon cancer rates for people under 40. And if a doctor tells them their health is in serious jeopardy they ask for a pill so they can continue living that way for a few extra years. At least bodybuilders put in work to make changes even with drugs involved.

I'm really tired of the morality police on this shit, particularly on a board called Professional Muscle. Everyone knows there are risks and if you don't then you get what you deserve. Look at Jamie Foxx - he's been hospitalized for almost three weeks due to a stroke caused by high blood pressure. He has untold millions and millions of dollars but wouldn't spend less than a dollar per day to control his high blood pressure - a typical average American. And he may end up with lifelong complications due to it.

We only hear the stories of guys who had bad outcomes - mostly because they love to remind everyone like a few regulars here - and never the ones who live this life for years and have no issues. When @concreteguy had his intestinal issues he was given full body scans and his heart, liver, kidneys, etc., were all perfectly healthy - and he was pushing grams, orals, insulin, and more in his 50s. @Swiper has had his issues but to my knowledge they're all due to injuries, nothing with organs or internal health. I've pushed the limits more than most here and I too have no issues - it's a struggle to get my heartrate into the 130s when doing cardio. I have a friend at the gym who's been on for over 25 years. The only time he had an issue is when he decided to go off cold turkey for a bit - he got a blood clot. He went to the hospital, got put on blood thinners for life, went back on, and has had no problems since. @pins is in his 60s and still going using PEDs. @1bigun11 is another one in his 60s still pushing it.

Yes, some people will be more prone to bad outcomes than others, but that's the random chance that is life. There are equally as many who won't have any issues.

 

[bg65]

Are you familiar with Alex Kikel? If yes, what do you think about his protocols for "fixing" heart issues? My opinion, ok if things look hopeless and you are down to do it, go ahead. But still, I'm a bit uneasy about it. Alex keeps saying everything is plastic and fixable. A bit optimistic to say the least.

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I am not familiar with him. I followed that link to his IG page but i don't have an IG acct so couldn't check out more than that. I'd be interested to see if there's research/data to support those supplements he calls first line of defense. A big part would be reducing the PEDs for a while, like he says. I would say telmisartan (or any other ARB or ACE-I) should be included in first line (not second) and any of us with an inkling of HTN should take an ARB or ACE-I. Angiotensin plays a direct role in the development of LVH so blocking that pathway can be preventative and if after the fact will help the heart to remodel the correct way. There can reach a point with concentric LVH that it becomes irreversible so its a good idea to get echos periodically to monitor for that

 

[NeveReveN]

Please speculate on the following. Does someone like Nick Walker do "health phases"?I say yes and no. Yes he may drop drugs such as orals or things that are thought of as extra toxic, after shows. But the total dose is steady steady. The dial has been turned to upper tolerable limit and there is little use for yo-yoing the dose. Even from a health standpoint going up and down in dose and bodyweight might not be the best strategy.

Some of the gurus claim they use and have used a strategy of coming off completely at times and even recomnend "PCT" Lol. It may be true for some in a very limited context. But some may find it's just unnessesarily stressful. Lose size and then you have to play catch-up.

I’m thinking Nick Walker’s last “health phase” ended the day he found out who the steroid dealer was at his high school.

 

[Golden]

Serious bodybuilding has to be insane and reckless. Lifting super heavy weights, putting down endless amounts of food, all the PEDs, etc.

The average American non-bodybuilder is just as insane and reckless. They eat a garbage diet, are chronically dehydrated, the majority are overweight or obese, chronically high blood sugar leading to diabetes, uncontrolled high blood pressure, 0 physical exercise, etc. Look at the explosion in colon cancer rates for people under 40. And if a doctor tells them their health is in serious jeopardy they ask for a pill so they can continue living that way for a few extra years. At least bodybuilders put in work to make changes even with drugs involved.

I'm really tired of the morality police on this shit, particularly on a board called Professional Muscle. Everyone knows there are risks and if you don't then you get what you deserve. Look at Jamie Foxx - he's been hospitalized for almost three weeks due to a stroke caused by high blood pressure. He has untold millions and millions of dollars but wouldn't spend less than a dollar per day to control his high blood pressure - a typical average American. And he may end up with lifelong complications due to it.

We only hear the stories of guys who had bad outcomes - mostly because they love to remind everyone like a few regulars here - and never the ones who live this life for years and have no issues. When @concreteguy had his intestinal issues he was given full body scans and his heart, liver, kidneys, etc., were all perfectly healthy - and he was pushing grams, orals, insulin, and more in his 50s. @Swiper has had his issues but to my knowledge they're all due to injuries, nothing with organs or internal health. I've pushed the limits more than most here and I too have no issues - it's a struggle to get my heartrate into the 130s when doing cardio. I have a friend at the gym who's been on for over 25 years. The only time he had an issue is when he decided to go off cold turkey for a bit - he got a blood clot. He went to the hospital, got put on blood thinners for life, went back on, and has had no problems since. @pins is in his 60s and still going using PEDs. @1bigun11 is another one in his 60s still pushing it.

Yes, some people will be more prone to bad outcomes than others, but that's the random chance that is life. There are equally as many who won't have any issues.

Somebody I know has just had a heart attack. He’s is the poster boy for unhealthy living. Smokes, eats rubbish and no exercise. Massively overweight, looks almost pregnant. The dr told him his heart attack is directly linked to smoking. His mindset is he’ll give up smoking and the rest of the stuff he can carry on with as the dr mentioned only the smoking!

Crazy

 

[5Noles]

this is not a problem - in Poland this disease is called "athlete's heart" and it is a normal process - the walls of the left ventricle become thicker and larger to be able to pump more blood - the heart is also a muscle

In general, I see that some people would like to be muscular and at the same time fully healthy - this is not possible - in life there is always something a basket of something else

Thx Luki for weighing in on the topic.

I just read a post where Victor Black stated that he was told that PMF was not his venue…….it’s for hard core bodybuilding.

Some smart ass always has to mention kids in the gym…..this is PMF.

Health phase can be immediately following a show or off-season as needed. Everyone knows the dosages necessary for a top pro to grow or the harsher compounds needed to prep for a show are unsustainable. Also called a holding phase, lower dosages are needed to hold mass while health markers recover. NOBODY THINKS THEY ARE BECOMING HEALTHY! It’s also a break from pushing food (GI), training (joints etc), and mental break.

 

[pickapeck]

Men are risk takers. If you're not taking risks then put on a dress, take different hormones and tuck your dick. Drugs are one kind of risk. Traveling the country fighting in shiai, for the fuck of it is another. Climbing poles as a lineman is another. Endless. Just be a fucking man and don't worry about the next guy, girl, tranny, furby, natty, lower-doser-er, PCT-er, oral-only-er, blast and cruizer-er, pussbelly-er-er or whatever other insane version of humanity there is.

 

[Fleezy]

Thx Luki for weighing in on the topic.

I just read a post where Victor Black stated that he was told that PMF was not his venue…….it’s for hard core bodybuilding.

Some smart ass always has to mention kids in the gym…..this is PMF.

Health phase can be immediately following a show or off-season as needed. Everyone knows the dosages necessary for a top pro to grow or the harsher compounds needed to prep for a show are unsustainable. Also called a holding phase, lower dosages are needed to hold mass while health markers recover. NOBODY THINKS THEY ARE BECOMING HEALTHY! It’s also a break from pushing food (GI), training (joints etc), and mental break.

I think ‘holding’ phase is more appropriate of a term than ‘health’ phase

 

[5Noles]

I think ‘holding’ phase is more appropriate of a term than ‘health’ phase

Maybe “less unhealthy phase”

We all make our own life choices.