Why do Pro's do so many sets?

[GoneForever]

Every video I see or article in muscle mags, etc.. you see these guys hitting like 12sets for chest, over 15sets for back,etc... and many train 2x per day. Everything i've heard on this board from the greats like DC and others I wont mention so I dont give away secrets, but they all recommened only 3sets per bodypart 1.5-2x per week. I wonder why so many of these guys are doing 10x that amount.

 

[ScottMcD1]

The only difference I really see between MOST high volume guys(say a Ronnie Coleman) and MOST low volume guy(Yates type) is one counts his warmup sets and one doesn't.

 

[sickboy]

Almost every pro that trains at my gym or is in town to workout, does a high volume workout. Tons of sets for arms especially. I always read about the pros doing 6-8 sets for a bodypart, but I've never seen one actually train that way.

 

[JETHRO TULL]

Interestingly enough that's what I saw at Gold's in Las Vegas too.

I expected to see some heavy assed weight being handled. That's NOT what I saw. I saw moderate weights for a lot of sets.

Could be a variety of reasons for that, but that's what I witnessed personally.

I saw both in shape folks- as in contest ready and off- season as in Trey Brewer [Not a pro] just saying!


Wasn't anything like a Ronnie Colman video going on in there. Regular guys doing the same exercises every other bodybuilder does- these fellas just obviously respond better to the training and eating than the average person.

I left thinking that after watching a variety of pros and top amateurs train.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

How were you taught, how was i taught, how were the pro's taught? By the magazines or if not the magazines...someone in their gym that read the magazines.

I was the same guy--I was doing the Lee Haney and Berry Demey workouts when I started out because.....thats what the mags said to do...Berry Demey was my height...I wanted to be like Berry Demey back in the old days.

it was 6 days a week hitting bodyparts 2x during that week and it was stuff like this

Legs day was this:

7 sets of squats
4 hack
4 leg press
3 leg extension
3 sets lying hamstring
3 sets standing hamstring
3 sets stiff legged deadlift
3 sets seated calves
3 sets standing calves

I was determined to be the next Berry Demey and noone ever told me that alot of those sets were warmup sets (like the 7 sets of squats 135 185 225 275)....i was taking them up to near failure with high reps on every single set almost and little did I know everyone else was just pyramiding up with low reps. Hacks i was going crazy doing a hardcore 4 sets and find out much later those guys were doing 135 easy, 185 easy, 225 easy and then the last set was the hard one.

Bodybuilding is all about OCD and curing insecurity issues for alot of people....and alot of what has been brought down thru the ages has been all about "OMG if i dont do flat and incline and decline and pec deck and 30 degree incline flyes and cable crossovers will I be selling myself short????!"

I went from 137 to 196 by using a basic 3-4 time a week powerbuilding routine in my first year of lifting and ate like a horse......continued to eat like a horse but I WANTED IT SO DAMN BADLY that i changed over to the lee haney and Berry Demey 6 days a week high volume routine like a freaking idiot over the next 2 to 2.5 years and went from 196 to about 206.....what a waste of valuable training time...2.5 years to gain 10 freaking pounds and I trained so damn hard it was ridiculous....ate everything in sight....and overtrained myself so badly I look back and feel like a complete imbecile. I came back from 3 hour leg workouts absolutely wasted but i would never miss a meal.....I wanted this stuff bad!

When you have incredible genetics like pros--i feel you can get monstrous 50 ways around the block...the yates way, the high volume way, any way......3 sets of half ass barbell curls and your growing. For the rest of society....good luck. I just finally got to the point where I started looking at what actually was making guys grow (getting progressively stronger at key movements) over what was out and out bullshit fluff exercises based on Obsessive compulsiveness of "oh man what will happen if i dont do that?!?!" = cable crossovers.

So I removed the fluff and obsession compulsion for myself and concentrated on what was making not only pro's but the local gymrat bigger. Ive always been someone who takes note and observes to the highest degree.....I have a engineering background and thats what i did.....I asked a shitload of questions of pros and top ams and big gym rats after that wasted 2.5 years and reverse engineered the whole thing for myself.....I started at the RESULT and worked my way backwards at what brought about that result....and it sure wasnt the one hand peak contracted tricep pushdown with a single cable with the pinky cocked counterclockwise to bring about the mind muscle connection.....it was the big MF in the corner who started out close grip benching 185 for 12 and ended up years later at 405 for 12.

 

[savage50]

I'm sure I might get a lot of flack for this, but I have a few bodybuilder type friends, and they all do higher rep ranges for the pump, and hypertrophy of the muscle, without the risk of tears or injury that would occur due to ridiculous weights that many bodybuilders can handle due to the gear..unfortunately the ligamnets and joints take more time to adapt to those weights....hence the injuries.

I know a few pros, and they would do higher rep ranges for the pump...and muscle workas opposed to the risk involved in heavy weights....do you blame them?

Being on the gear also makes things easier, faster recovery time, more strength, more size and greater appetite + more calories due to greater absorption....'nuff said

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I'm sure I might get a lot of flack for this, but I have a few bodybuilder type friends, and they all do higher rep ranges for the pump, and hypertrophy of the muscle, without the risk of tears or injury that would occur due to ridiculous weights that many bodybuilders can handle due to the gear..unfortunately the ligamnets and joints take more time to adapt to those weights....hence the injuries.

I know a few pros, and they would do higher rep ranges for the pump...and muscle workas opposed to the risk involved in heavy weights....do you blame them?

Being on the gear also makes things easier, faster recovery time, more strength, more size and greater appetite + more calories due to greater absorption....'nuff said

My advice to anyone who thinks getting continually bigger in bodybuilding is going to be a safe adventure is good luck. Look at the pro's where its pretty much an even playing field----who are the big dogs on the block? Someone like Ronnie Coleman will never be seen again for a long time.....what was he also known for? Johnny Jackson? Branch Warren? Dorian Yates? Michael Francois? Chris Cormier? Dennis James? The biggest baddest MF's on the block in the pro's were usually the guys who took the chance to handle the heaviest progressive weights....and alot of those guys took that chance knowing that injuries could happen and did happen to some of them. Safe training? Shawn Ray for 16 years...got his pro card at 198 and 16 years later the heaviest he competed at was 212 or so......16 years to gain 14lbs of muscle mass.

Bob Paris comes in and gets his pro card and competes in his first show at roughly 220 something ......Yates comes in with his pro card and competes in the NOC at his first show at roughly the same. At that point they didnt look greatly different did they? (below) One guy was a guy who took the safe route and used pumping weights....the other guy was a g'damn animal who attacked the weights like his life depended on it.

Multi MR Olympia's later Yates comes in the last Olympia in the 270's......Bob Paris? stayed the same and faded away....even though he had a great build.

Now I was privy to someone who was very close to Yates who was very giving with his info (diet/training/super supps) to this former training partner of his so Ill call anyone out who wants to shout drugs....because it was told to me in detail and it was very responsible.

That guy put 50lbs of muscle on himself in the pro's thru backbreaking hard work.

Who had better genetics? Flex Wheeler or Ronnie Coleman? Tossup? Coleman trains like a human forklift and ends up onstage at the Russian Grand Prix at 302 pounds.....Flex? Heaviest onstage bodyweight I believe was 237.

If the genetic and drug playing field is even.......he who dares to tread into potentially risky progressive weights separates himself from the pack.

I am not talking singles or doubles or triples....you could tear your quad on a 405 for 12 squat.......


if you want to be safe in bodybuilding hey use the same weights your using now for the next 20 years....just know that you arent going to be getting much bigger.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I was taught originally with those high volume workouts. I trained with Doc Brown at Rivers Gym. He's the guy in the MTV cribs style video of Dennis Wolf where Dennis says "He is first man to bring me to United States".

I worked my ass off and felt like SHIT. I didn't grow.

Example workout...

Leg Ext- 3 x 30 (failure hit at 20 and he forced 10 more)
Squat- 4 x 6-10 to failure on each set with 3-5 FORCED reps!
Hack Squat- 4 x 8-15 to failure each set
Lunges- the length of a football field up and back 4 time with a bar on my back
Seated Ham Curl- 3 x 30
Lying Ham Curl- 3 x 30
Leg Ext- 3 x 30

EVERYTHING was done beyond failure. Nothing was painful after that... but I felt awful all the time.

DC training put 35lbs on me. The only things I changed were the volume of my workouts and took in the right amount of food EVERY SINGLE DAY. People worry to much about not doing enough in the gym. They should be more worried about food and rest.

 

[betito]

IMO weight is unimportant as long as there is noticeable progresion, you start doing X pounds for Y reps for a muscle group and 5 months later you do X+50pounds for Y reps for the same muscle, if your diet was good and you gained weight that muscle group will be bigger... you do 5 rep sets for chest because you feel safe but you do 20 reps for legs because you are so strong that less reps would mean using every plate in the gym? it´s ok as long as the weights go up, of course rep range has importance, but if loads go up while body weight goes up you will be growing no matter what flex magazine says...

 

[gridlock]

so how many warmup sets do people take on average? I usually do maybe 2-3 and then 3 hard sets with the middle one probably ending up the hardest and then going to failure on the last

 

[Razer]

Funny but true DC!!!

and it sure wasnt the one hand peak contracted tricep pushdown with a single cable with the pinky cocked counterclockwise to bring about the mind muscle connection.....it was the big MF in the corner who started out close grip benching 185 for 12 and ended up years later at 405 for 12.

I love the "pinky cocked counterclockwise" movement, it's the only way I can get a pump in my calves!!!

No, seriously DC you're right, for example where I work if you have a problem, you look at it and work back from the end result. That will tell you how it became a problem, back track.

Good point DC.

 

[gooey]

as usual...

My advice to anyone who thinks getting continually bigger in bodybuilding is going to be a safe adventure is good luck. Look at the pro's where its pretty much an even playing field----who are the big dogs on the block? Someone like Ronnie Coleman will never be seen again for a long time.....what was he also known for? Johnny Jackson? Branch Warren? Dorian Yates? Michael Francois? Chris Cormier? Dennis James? The biggest baddest MF's on the block in the pro's were usually the guys who took the chance to handle the heaviest progressive weights....and alot of those guys took that chance knowing that injuries could happen and did happen to some of them. Safe training? Shawn Ray for 16 years...got his pro card at 198 and 16 years later the heaviest he competed at was 212 or so......16 years to gain 14lbs of muscle mass.

Bob Paris comes in and gets his pro card and competes in his first show at roughly 220 something ......Yates comes in with his pro card and competes in the NOC at his first show at roughly the same. At that point they didnt look greatly different did they? (below) One guy was a guy who took the safe route and used pumping weights....the other guy was a g'damn animal who attacked the weights like his life depended on it.

Multi MR Olympia's later Yates comes in the last Olympia in the 270's......Bob Paris? stayed the same and faded away....even though he had a great build.

Now I was privy to someone who was very close to Yates who was very giving with his info (diet/training/super supps) to this former training partner of his so Ill call anyone out who wants to shout drugs....because it was told to me in detail and it was very responsible.

That guy put 50lbs of muscle on himself in the pro's thru backbreaking hard work.

Who had better genetics? Flex Wheeler or Ronnie Coleman? Tossup? Coleman trains like a human forklift and ends up onstage at the Russian Grand Prix at 302 pounds.....Flex? Heaviest onstage bodyweight I believe was 237.

If the genetic and drug playing field is even.......he who dares to tread into potentially risky progressive weights separates himself from the pack.

I am not talking singles or doubles or triples....you could tear your quad on a 405 for 12 squat.......


if you want to be safe in bodybuilding hey use the same weights your using now for the next 20 years....just know that you arent going to be getting much bigger.

well supported arguments. I think its simple big weights will = big muscle. Take a lot food, time, and weights to build muscle. This one reasons why Dorian, Ronnie, Jay made the improvements they did and gained the muscle they did. They moved weight and moved it often and as many times as they could. Ronnie has said "make it heavy and lift it as many times as you can"

 

[willylee]

Great insight DC. Your post are truly appreciated.

 

[Buildinthaskinnys]

I just wanted to add, that since many people have injured themselves doingwarmup sets, such as Victor Martinez doing a set of lunges, then how valid are multiple warm up sets? I feel that if unless you are doing low reps as in the 4-6 rep range they are useless, somebody prove me wrong before I hurt myself.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

LOL i gotta be honest...... (this is a vague recollection)

when i first started training i was depressed over a girl so i used the gym to channel my anger/sadness. I went 2-3x per day 2hrs at a time...countless sets....who knows how many times per week i trained bodyparts.........

starting weight 150....end weight...low 180's.....6-9 month range. And i didnt eat shit cuz i was so sad i had no appetite......

beats me how i progressed lol.......wish i could grow like that again tho!

 

[Nssca]

well supported arguments. I think its simple big weights will = big muscle. Take a lot food, time, and weights to build muscle. This one reasons why Dorian, Ronnie, Jay made the improvements they did and gained the muscle they did. They moved weight and moved it often and as many times as they could. Ronnie has said "make it heavy and lift it as many times as you can"

I Agree, but too many contradiction postings...I think I'll stick to those who have actually achieved contest awards...they must be doing something right.

 

[JETHRO TULL]

DOGCRAPP-

I have tried most of the different methods of training and I also wanted to look like Berry DeMey! We must have started reading those magazines about the same time.

Like you I overtrained when I first started and always ended up with a sore throat and couldn't gain weight very easily.

I met up with a guy named Rocky Gullikson who is now the strenght coach for Green Bay. He got me on the Chest shoulders Triceps [ monday and thurs], legs, back, biceps day[tues and friday] with weekends off and I grew. I did powerlifting at that point.

Once in a while I go back to volume maybe one exercise for 8sets of 10 and maybe train chest and back together.

Regardless, I don't recover very well on high volume...I WISH I DID! LOL

This is my question- Do you think given the fact that there are so many top guys who do high volume....Rhul, Cutler, Badel, hell the list goes on and on....that these guys do well [get huge etc] large in SPITE of their methods rather than due to the effectiveness of their training?

 

[Ashop]

How were you taught, how was i taught, how were the pro's taught? By the magazines or if not the magazines...someone in their gym that read the magazines.

I was the same guy--I was doing the Lee Haney and Berry Demey workouts when I started out because.....thats what the mags said to do...Berry Demey was my height...I wanted to be like Berry Demey back in the old days.

it was 6 days a week hitting bodyparts 2x during that week and it was stuff like this

Legs day was this:

7 sets of squats
4 hack
4 leg press
3 leg extension
3 sets lying hamstring
3 sets standing hamstring
3 sets stiff legged deadlift
3 sets seated calves
3 sets standing calves

I was determined to be the next Berry Demey and noone ever told me that alot of those sets were warmup sets (like the 7 sets of squats 135 185 225 275)....i was taking them up to near failure with high reps on every single set almost and little did I know everyone else was just pyramiding up with low reps. Hacks i was going crazy doing a hardcore 4 sets and find out much later those guys were doing 135 easy, 185 easy, 225 easy and then the last set was the hard one.

Bodybuilding is all about OCD and curing insecurity issues for alot of people....and alot of what has been brought down thru the ages has been all about "OMG if i dont do flat and incline and decline and pec deck and 30 degree incline flyes and cable crossovers will I be selling myself short????!"

I went from 137 to 196 by using a basic 3-4 time a week powerbuilding routine in my first year of lifting and ate like a horse......continued to eat like a horse but I WANTED IT SO DAMN BADLY that i changed over to the lee haney and Berry Demey 6 days a week high volume routine like a freaking idiot over the next 2 to 2.5 years and went from 196 to about 206.....what a waste of valuable training time...2.5 years to gain 10 freaking pounds and I trained so damn hard it was ridiculous....ate everything in sight....and overtrained myself so badly I look back and feel like a complete imbecile. I came back from 3 hour leg workouts absolutely wasted but i would never miss a meal.....I wanted this stuff bad!

When you have incredible genetics like pros--i feel you can get monstrous 50 ways around the block...the yates way, the high volume way, any way......3 sets of half ass barbell curls and your growing. For the rest of society....good luck. I just finally got to the point where I started looking at what actually was making guys grow (getting progressively stronger at key movements) over what was out and out bullshit fluff exercises based on Obsessive compulsiveness of "oh man what will happen if i dont do that?!?!" = cable crossovers.

So I removed the fluff and obsession compulsion for myself and concentrated on what was making not only pro's but the local gymrat bigger. Ive always been someone who takes note and observes to the highest degree.....I have a engineering background and thats what i did.....I asked a shitload of questions of pros and top ams and big gym rats after that wasted 2.5 years and reverse engineered the whole thing for myself.....I started at the RESULT and worked my way backwards at what brought about that result....and it sure wasnt the one hand peak contracted tricep pushdown with a single cable with the pinky cocked counterclockwise to bring about the mind muscle connection.....it was the big MF in the corner who started out close grip benching 185 for 12 and ended up years later at 405 for 12.

I tend to agree...when you have supreme genetics like some of the pro's you will gain doing any routine.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

This is my question- Do you think given the fact that there are so many top guys who do high volume....Rhul, Cutler, Badel, hell the list goes on and on....that these guys do well [get huge etc] large in SPITE of their methods rather than due to the effectiveness of their training?

If that question is toward me...I truly believe a pro is going to find himself a pro no matter what progressive training approach he takes. Every pro has training partners....and he flys right by them. Heck in one of Ruhls videos they show his training partner (not his wife at that time) and he is going step by step with Ruhl and Ruhl absolutely dwarfs the guy by 100 lbs. Ronnie Colemans training partner has repeatedly asked me to train him....to be honest....would it really make a huge difference? I dont think so unless he isnt recovering...Ronnie trains very progressively and heavy.....but Ronnies genetics are Ronnies which set him apart. Nothing i do is ever going to make that guy approach Ronnie....its not in the cards.

I think people egos in this sport dont allow them to enter a reality zone.....a zone where the bottom line is these prime things that separate us as individuals

genetic response to training

genetic ability to recover (Ronnies is insane...who else can train like he does 6 days a week hitting bodyparts 2x in that time and recover? The majority would get absolutely buried)

genetic response to drugs--this is the one that really f*&ks peoples heads up. Lets take you the individual reading this out of the equation then. Do you really truly think that if Phil Heath and Jim Carrey did the exact same regimen of training and super supplements that they would respond the same and end up making the same extreme gains in muscle mass? not a chance in hell so why is it so hard to comprehend that Phil Heath responds to training and supersupplements oh so much better than you the person reading this. I still vividly remember 2 guys in my gym back in the old days sharing a big lot of tabs of winstrol....they split them up evenly---and used the same low amount per day.....they both were about the same height and weight and both had trained a long time naturally--both ate the same because they were neighbors and would eat alot together...but you could tell one guy was very mesomorphic with round muscle bellies and one guy was just so so aka "Mr you see him at the mall every day of the year"

Mr meso gains 25 pounds and Mr mall gained about 2 pounds....halfway thru Mr Mall freaked when he saw the gains Mr meso was making and accused him of taking much more than he was daily....but they recounted (even steven) and there they were at the end running out at the same time.

Im so much a believer in that the 400 or so pro's could swap training routines between each other and pretty much (not exactly but pretty much) end up with that same elite size considering all else (eating, ergo aids, supps) are the same.


Two things are like death and taxes in this sport.....
1)genetics allow certain people to absolutely leapfrog past their training partners, everyone in their gym and then the masses.

2)the people that get leapfrogged get their ego's so bent out of shape that they accuse the guy in #1 of using everything under the sun (even though the truth might be the guy in #2 is abusing himself to the gills far past the guy in #1)

 

[Hiramabiff]

CLASSIC: "If the genetic and drug playing field is even.......he who dares to tread into potentially risky progressive weights separates himself from the pack." Putthat on a Shirt! Real talk, all the time from DC!! You got to love him!!