TOO MUCH ANTI-E's

[MrCyp]

Would those of you who are against and for anti E's all agree that if you do take them and get bloodwork done and estradial is in range, then that is the best situation?

 

[Macro]

point is don't use them if you do not have so you get the benefits of estrogen for growth and to minimize any sides from long term anti estrogen use.

why start using them right at start of cycle if not even needed. assess as you go along.

now if you wake up one morning with nipples the size of apples and hard as steal and can't afford surgery maybe its time to start some anti estrogens.

what sides exactly are you referring to with respect to AI use?

less rixk of prostate cancer?

increased libido?

increased testosterone production?

which of those sides are you concerned about?

 

[gearfan]

i really think its a susceptibility thing. If you are prone to getting gyno / other estro sides you will probably get them regardless of what you do...i mean how many posts do you see on these boards of guys fighting this problem REGARDLESS of anti-e's they are using. Then you have guys (like myself) that have used up to 2 grams of test per week without anything and never once got even an itchy nipple. If you KNOW you need them then obviously be prepared. The thing that kill sme on some boards (not as much here really) is the automatic responce of "Dude you need at least .5mg of arimidex per day if you are on 500mg of test per week"...REALLY? Of course most of the guys saying this crap have never seen 250lbs. Alas the worst thing the internet ever created...the e-steroid guru.

thats awsome you are so right lol for me ive done 800 migs of test 100 migs of drol and 600 of deca and never ever had even the slightest sign of gyno ..but i have had friends that got gyno from 300 migs of test e why that is i have no idea..

 

[dragonfire101]

what sides exactly are you referring to with respect to AI use?

less rixk of prostate cancer?

increased libido?

increased testosterone production?

which of those sides are you concerned about?

Were talking about high dosages and overuse on cycles. Which would be less growth, lower igf-1(depending which are used), bone metabolism and cardiovascular(high blood cholesterol and triglycerides).


The description for benefits you gave fit more for an older hypogonadal male or I suppose someone who are any age that has had history hypogonadism. There dosages are most likely not as high as someone overusing high dosages on a cycles for possibly long periods of time.

Know one is saying not use them at all. They have there place for therapeutic purposes.

Where saying why use them if you don't have to and if they can possibility mitigate growth and possibly precipitate other issues to occur.

 

[Massive G]

thats awsome you are so right lol for me ive done 800 migs of test 100 migs of drol and 600 of deca and never ever had even the slightest sign of gyno ..but i have had friends that got gyno from 300 migs of test e why that is i have no idea..

Bingo!

I'd suggest if people want to eduacte themselves they should do so by trying on and off versus listenting to the electronic cut and paste wizards.
I have so many of these morons on my ignore list it's not even funny.

 

[Liphted]

Bingo!

I'd suggest if people want to eduacte themselves they should do so by trying on and off versus listenting to the electronic cut and paste wizards.
I have so many of these morons on my ignore list it's not even funny.

Agreed, and most importantly it shouldn't be done by how you "feel". Most people will mistakenly rationalize symptoms or excuse them knowing damn well there is something wrong. Just because your nips aren't needing custom designed gyno bra's to keep you from tripping on your own man boobs doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Blood work plain and simple will give you quantitatively want you want to know. Numbers can be compared, not "well my nips were a little itchy, but not too bad". Look at it with and with out using "xyz" to combat sides, and most importantly eliminate variables - diet, dosage, etc.

Don't be afraid to learn your body. Unfortunately that takes experimentation, which for whatever reason most look to be led by the mostly blind.

I also agree there are a lot of cut and paste posters, but there are others who have obviously done their homework as well.

 

[MrCyp]

Im suprised more people dont get bloodwork. Its only $50 and there is your answer %100.

 

[chriswhat]

I am starting to get the picture. My nips have no discharge or are itchi. They just hurt a little when i touch them and they have a small lump behind them.

That sounds like gyno.

 

[chriswhat]

point is don't use them if you do not have so you get the benefits of estrogen for growth and to minimize any sides from long term anti estrogen use.

why start using them right at start of cycle if not even needed. assess as you go along.

now if you wake up one morning with nipples the size of apples and hard as steal and can't afford surgery maybe its time to start some anti estrogens.

Because then it is way too late.

 

[dragonfire101]

Because then it is way too late.

The last I was being sarcastic. some people take things so literally.

I said assess as you go along the sentence before that

 

[MR. BMJ]

I hardly ever disagree with a MG post, but have to on this topic

A lot of this will be genetic, and yes, a lot of people will never receive gyno from AAS because of this factor, but MANY, MANY still do. I don't feel that you need to wait for something to occur before you decide to take action. Not everybody can get sensitive nipples, and then take 5 days of clomid and have it disappear. In fact, over the years, it seemed that once itchy nips did occur, then it was just a matter of time before they did develop more serious issues. I used to add in nolvadex and clomid and proviron as needed back in the 90's, but the cockiness of thinking that I would never develop gyno eventually hit up with me. I've seen this occur many times with others as well. This doesn't just occur with people using 2 grams of test and other anabolics either. I also don't think it has jack to do with gains, except maybe water retention, and likewise, there is a difference between murdering estrogen levels down below normal levels compared to keeping them in the normal range. Yes, taking tests is the appropriate step, but good luck on finding a doctor to always stand beside a patient if they are elevated.

While there are many copy and pasters, there are many who aren't copying information. Pubmed and personal experience combined are a beautiful thing. While there are arm-chair people posting to use them, there are also just regular lay-people stating they help tremendously as well, who don't have gyno. I think LATS comes to mind on this with his recent introduction of AI's.

Look, people can do what they want, but I see no harm in doing this for preventative matters, this may just be a matter of everybody agreeing to disagree. I've also seen people who have used AI's still get gyno, you can't really deny that, but usually it is from abuse of both estrogenic and progestenic compounds together, and there is only so much one compound can do if the other compounds overpower it's strength.

IMO, AI's should be used just like most other drugs, supplements, and compounds.....if it makes you feel like shit, just cut down the dose or the compound altogether, but that doesn't mean it is gonna be bad for everybody. Side effects and lethality are always in the dosage amount of each drug.

BMJ

 

[Johnny Smiles]

i would like to see a pic of you Macro

COMMENTS ABOVE IN RED

hmmm...

so you use insulin and lecture about the dangerous use of AI's.

oh well....

if you would like to know why you had issues and how to take AI's properly, for you... would like to help.

arimidex is generally the least best choice among ai's. few people that have any experience (ie with other AI's) will reccomend it.

not sure whose posts you were reading, but things like cytadren and ru-486 were rather short lived reccomendations. And they were put out as theories.

basically have to disagree with most of that, with the exception of the issue of over use and excessive dose/stacks without experience or realization of response...


JMHO

I bet you are all research and no real experience. if you think slin is dangerous then you are all research and no experience. and to ignore and discredit Massive G's experience is again revealing you are all research and like to sound smart.

anti e's are not needed for MOST people. correct diet determines what you look like and even how bloated you are.
but thats just real world experience i didn't read a study -JS

 

[MR. BMJ]

I bet you are all research and no real experience. if you think slin is dangerous then you are all research and no experience. and to ignore and discredit Massive G's experience is again revealing you are all research and like to sound smart.

anti e's are not needed for MOST people. correct diet determines what you look like and even how bloated you are.
but thats just real world experience i didn't read a study -JS

Do you know macro? Do you know of his experiences?

I can vouch for his EXPERIENCE, that you just dismissed him of having without letting him answer.

If you think that elevated estrogen will NOT bloat you, then you are wrong sir. This is separate from diet, which too can do the same and should definately not be overlooked. To discredit science totally is ignorant. Science + experience is way superior. MassiveG's experience is definately valued, I love reading his posts, but it's okay to disagree at times. I can assure you, nobody is looking past MG's experiences, we've all learned a lot from the guy.

Macro has been around for close to as long as any of us, rest assured he is knowledgeable in all areas. Also, in case you missed it, he ended his post with "JMHO."

BMJ

 

[MrCyp]

Thats bullshit that anti e's are not need for MOST people. Lets take 10 members on here and just give them 500mg test E. About a month into it get an estradial test. I gaurantee you at least 9 if not all 10 have elevated estradial levels. Just b/c you dont get gyno doesnt mean your estro isnt sky high and you dont want sky high estro. You want it in range.

 

[dragonfire101]

Thats bullshit that anti e's are not need for MOST people. Lets take 10 members on here and just give them 500mg test E. About a month into it get an estradial test. I gaurantee you at least 9 if not all 10 have elevated estradial levels. Just b/c you dont get gyno doesnt mean your estro isnt sky high and you dont want sky high estro. You want it in range.

I can honestly believe 10mg exemestane a day would probably be sufficient for many on moderate cycle. I know people so in fear of gyno they stack
20mg exemestane and 20mg nolva 2 times a day. Then they don't even no about prolaction and progesterone inducing gyno. The ones who do add in large doses Cabergoline, Bromo, Pramipexole which even a little makes you feel like crap at times and now your messing with dopamine receptors when you get into that stuff.

At most 10-20mg exemestane and .25-1mg prami should be the most, that majority will ever need to combat any sides from anabolic/androgens or GH use.

Lets be honest Exemestane is a strong aromatase inhibitor 10mg every day should be fine for most.

Personally my favorite was 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane) 100mg EOD IM.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Do you know macro? Do you know of his experiences?

I can vouch for his EXPERIENCE, that you just dismissed him of having without letting him answer.

If you think that elevated estrogen will NOT bloat you, then you are wrong sir. This is separate from diet, which too can do the same and should definately not be overlooked. To discredit science totally is ignorant. Science + experience is way superior. MassiveG's experience is definately valued, I love reading his posts, but it's okay to disagree at times. I can assure you, nobody is looking past MG's experiences, we've all learned a lot from the guy.

Macro has been around for close to as long as any of us, rest assured he is knowledgeable in all areas. Also, in case you missed it, he ended his post with "JMHO."

BMJ

i don't "think" it won't bloat me it DIDNT bloat me. high dose test and never touched an anti e and got ripped for a show and took first. REAL EXPERIENCE.

now i know why those vets like phil etc left this thread after the first page. you guys know everything already
i too will leave this alone. you don't know til you live it i guess... -JS

oh and sorry if i offended you Macro. i respect your "humble opinion." this is not my opinion however, this is fact. i lived it. high test does not bloat me.

 

[MrCyp]

I can honestly believe 10mg exemestane a day would probably be sufficient for many on moderate cycle. I know people so in fear of gyno they stack
20mg exemestane and 20mg nolva 2 times a day. Then they don't even no about prolaction and progesterone inducing gyno. The ones who do add in large doses Cabergoline, Bromo, Pramipexole which even a little makes you feel like crap at times and now your messing with dopamine receptors when you get into that stuff.

At most 10-20mg exemestane and .25-1mg prami should be the most, that majority will ever need to combat any sides from anabolic/androgens or GH use.

Lets be honest Exemestane is a strong aromatase inhibitor 10mg every day should be fine for most.

Personally my favorite was 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane) 100mg EOD IM.

I made a post a while back here. Maybe like 2-3mo ago. I got bloodwork done on 750mg test and was using RS's aromasin at 12.5mg ED. Estro was in range but on the higher end. range is <50 and I was 42 i believe. I like the level there, i feel thats muscle building. Maybe a little lower i'd be better off like 30. Im now starting my 2nd blast and gonna try 1200mg test. Never gone that high. Im gonna try 25mg aromasin this time. Same kind from RS and get bloodwork again. I'll post up results again. Also I was on deca last time and this time it will be tren but i always use cabasar and my prolactin was very low when I got it tested so that wont interfer with the estro test. I'll keep u guys updated as the only true way to tell is bloodwork and as poor as i am now its worth the $50

 

[UGAthlete]

oh and sorry if i offended you Macro. i respect your "humble opinion." this is not my opinion however, this is fact. i lived it. high test does not bloat me.

Trying to remember back - this question is for everybody, not just JS. Isn't Macro a endocrinologist or something related? Longevity specialist?

I know he had plenty of protocol posts for HCG, AIs, Anti-Es, etc - pretty sure he is the one who made the HCG 2x/wk throughout the cycle protocol. I might be off completely but I seem to remember reading this on 'ology.

JS - If this is the same Macro, he knows his stuff - at least from a medical standpoint - I can't recall any contest, etc info. Not discrediting your experience at all, as you sound like you've definitely been around the block.

 

[dragonfire101]

Trying to remember back - this question is for everybody, not just JS. Isn't Macro a endocrinologist or something related? Longevity specialist?

I know he had plenty of protocol posts for HCG, AIs, Anti-Es, etc - pretty sure he is the one who made the HCG 2x/wk throughout the cycle protocol. I might be off completely but I seem to remember reading this on 'ology.

JS - If this is the same Macro, he knows his stuff - at least from a medical standpoint - I can't recall any contest, etc info. Not discrediting your experience at all, as you sound like you've definitely been around the block.

Pretty sure Swale came up with that HCG Protcol whomk is a endocrinologist . Not sure this is the same Marco from Meso u are talking about

Thats Marianco who is a Psychiatrist and practices Behavioral Neuroendocrinology.

http://www.definitivemind.com/

He has some intresting theories.

Not sure if link is inapropiate to post, but some good articals.

 

[Liphted]

comments in bold

i don't "think" it won't bloat me it DIDNT bloat me. high dose test and never touched an anti e and got ripped for a show and took first. REAL EXPERIENCE.
Congrats on your dieting and subsequent win

now i know why those vets like phil etc left this thread after the first page. you guys know everything already
i too will leave this alone. you don't know til you live it i guess... -JS
Really? That's why they left? Live what exactly? Elevated estrogen levels? I can guarantee you that everyone on this board who has supraphysiological levels of free test have "live[d] it".

oh and sorry if i offended you Macro. i respect your "humble opinion." this is not my opinion however, this is fact. i lived it. high test does not bloat me.
Neato, you don't noticeably bloat. What were you E levels, ya know in REAL NUMBERS?