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45 sets per muscle group to failure each week!?🥺

weedle

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He’s talking about brad schoenfield study. And it was 45 sets of quads, not all squats. But the workout seem impossible if going to failure each set. I’ll try to find it
I figured it was the Schoenfeld study but that was over 2 years ago. I wouldn't consider that recent.
Plus I'm sure there were no enhanced subjects in that study. That would have completely skewed the results.
It was argued to death 2 years ago that you have to take the results with a grain of salt because there was no way in hell anyone was doing all those sets to complete failure with the little rest time in between sets that was reported.
Can you imagine doing a set of squats to true failure then resting for about 1 minute and doing it again and again and again and again.
Schoenfeld got a lot of shit from that. I feel it tarnished his reputation somewhat.
 

FK86

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No, one guy named Dr. Mike Israetel did 35 sets of squats to failure in a week during the study.

Exhaustion increasing after every set impairing his perception and output of effort. Mike is RIR's biggest and loudest advocate. A system that most people agree that past 1-2 RIR is a crapshoot about where you are. No one is that in tune with themselves. Again, perception and pain tolerance are factors. Tons of people following his training think they are 3 RIR when they are 8 RIR on a given set.

I have John Little's book, 'High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way.' In it Mike talks about his training and the fallacy of increasing duration of exercise. His workouts at one time were two hours and he plateaued so he thought he had to increase them to three hours, and then four hours etc. Eventually he asked himself if spending half the day in the gym to build a championship physique was worth it. The answer is no. Then all the buzz about Casey Viator and Arthur Jones caught his attention and he linked up with them before coming up with his own theories.
 

TheOtherOne55

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Please link the study if you're going to debate it.
I also think you got the Dr. Mike stuff incorrect because he's the originator of RIR and he basically DOESNT take sets to failure. He does a large number of total sets, but very rarely goes 0 RIR. So I know for a fact that the "35 sets" you're saying in incorrect.

This has been discussed to exhaustion. We cannot take studies on random dudes as dogma in the BBing world.
1. MOST are untrained.
2. MOST if not all have no idea where failure is.

One of Brad's studies had guys doing something like 5 sets of squats to failure with 1 min rest in between. THEN moving on to the same on Leg Press. Could ANY OF US DO THAT RIGHT NOW? No way in hell. That right there tells you that the study is wrong and has too many variables.
 

FK86

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Please link the study if you're going to debate it.
I also think you got the Dr. Mike stuff incorrect because he's the originator of RIR and he basically DOESNT take sets to failure. He does a large number of total sets, but very rarely goes 0 RIR. So I know for a fact that the "35 sets" you're saying in incorrect.

This has been discussed to exhaustion. We cannot take studies on random dudes as dogma in the BBing world.
1. MOST are untrained.
2. MOST if not all have no idea where failure is.

One of Brad's studies had guys doing something like 5 sets of squats to failure with 1 min rest in between. THEN moving on to the same on Leg Press. Could ANY OF US DO THAT RIGHT NOW? No way in hell. That right there tells you that the study is wrong and has too many variables.

100%

Regarding failure, RIR, and rest periods:

If I leave reps in the tank, I can perform another set within 45-60 seconds on most exercises.

If I hit true failure, I typically need 2 minutes, 3 on really big compound movements.

When I do a 15-20 rep set to true failure on Squats, Hacks, or Deadlifts; my breathing doesn't return to normal for seven minutes.


So Brad's studies are absurd to me when they talk about multiple sets to failure with short rest periods.
 

weedle

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Please link the study if you're going to debate it.
I also think you got the Dr. Mike stuff incorrect because he's the originator of RIR and he basically DOESNT take sets to failure. He does a large number of total sets, but very rarely goes 0 RIR. So I know for a fact that the "35 sets" you're saying in incorrect.

This has been discussed to exhaustion. We cannot take studies on random dudes as dogma in the BBing world.
1. MOST are untrained.
2. MOST if not all have no idea where failure is.

One of Brad's studies had guys doing something like 5 sets of squats to failure with 1 min rest in between. THEN moving on to the same on Leg Press. Could ANY OF US DO THAT RIGHT NOW? No way in hell. That right there tells you that the study is wrong and has too many variables.
Agreed. Dr Mike has said the only time he will go to failure is during the last week of a mesocycle, and even then it is not set after set to failure, its just a handful at most.
 

headtrainer

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The impact on the nervous system between true failure and a rep in the tank is night and day. All the time I hear guys on podcasts talking about how hard and to failure they train. Then I watch their videos and I say "Nope."

Scott Stevenson has talked about perception on a few podcasts and I find it quite alarming how variable it is from person to person. With some people I feel like you could show them two videos; one of a guy getting stuck under the bar and grinding to the top, and another with a guy racking it well beforehand and they'd say "That looks the same to me."
Especially on compound leg movements!
 

buck

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My first year I did 30+ sets per workout 6 days a week and put on well over 20 pounds of muscle with no peds. And took the sets to failure as best I could and continued training like that for a while but did start adding in more rest days in the second and third year as my strength went up. The workouts could take almost 2 hours. Then I started reading about over training and figured I should change. Many guys used to train like that. Hard to say the Serge Nubret didn't build and muscle or John Defendis on such workouts. I spoke to Defendis a year or so ago and he said now that he is in his 60's he has cut back and only does 30-40 sets per workout as I remember.
 

FK86

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My first year I did 30+ sets per workout 6 days a week and put on well over 20 pounds of muscle with no peds. And took the sets to failure as best I could and continued training like that for a while but did start adding in more rest days in the second and third year as my strength went up. The workouts could take almost 2 hours. Then I started reading about over training and figured I should change. Many guys used to train like that. Hard to say the Serge Nubret didn't build and muscle or John Defendis on such workouts. I spoke to Defendis a year or so ago and he said now that he is in his 60's he has cut back and only does 30-40 sets per workout as I remember.

I believe all the guys when they say how many sets they do. I question their effort and perception, which more and more is revealed to be an insanely wide gap from person to person. The human body eventually wanes. That's why all intensity-based programs are low volume.

Roy Callender was the king of volume. Six hour workouts. Two hours at a pull-up bar. He wasn't doing his sets like JP or Dusty. I don't even need to see it to know that.
 

Elvia1023

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Please link the study if you're going to debate it.
I also think you got the Dr. Mike stuff incorrect because he's the originator of RIR and he basically DOESNT take sets to failure. He does a large number of total sets, but very rarely goes 0 RIR. So I know for a fact that the "35 sets" you're saying in incorrect.

This has been discussed to exhaustion. We cannot take studies on random dudes as dogma in the BBing world.
1. MOST are untrained.
2. MOST if not all have no idea where failure is.

One of Brad's studies had guys doing something like 5 sets of squats to failure with 1 min rest in between. THEN moving on to the same on Leg Press. Could ANY OF US DO THAT RIGHT NOW? No way in hell. That right there tells you that the study is wrong and has too many variables.
Exactly.

I love high volume at times and have trained very hard for 3 hours straight before. I have great endurance. If I done even 3 sets of squats to true failure with 1 min rest in between each I would barely be able to walk and would be shaking on the floor. Could I fuck go and do another 5 sets of leg press with 1 min rest to complete failure. I could take them close though but I imagine most in these studies would have plenty more reps in them. None of the people in the studies know what training to failure really means. Many could be training very hard but there is a difference from pushing it to going to all out failure which I don't think 97%+ of people who go to the gym ever go to (not necessarily a bad thing either). All of these studies are nonsense. You can pick up some useful info from time to time but it's all basic stuff that anyone who has trained consistently for 5+ years already knows.
 

jeroendebleser

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Exactly.

I love high volume at times and have trained very hard for 3 hours straight before. I have great endurance. If I done even 3 sets of squats to true failure with 1 min rest in between each I would barely be able to walk and would be shaking on the floor. Could I fuck go and do another 5 sets of leg press with 1 min rest to complete failure. I could take them close though but I imagine most in these studies would have plenty more reps in them. None of the people in the studies know what training to failure really means. Many could be training very hard but there is a difference from pushing it to going to all out failure which I don't think 97%+ of people who go to the gym ever go to (not necessarily a bad thing either). All of these studies are nonsense. You can pick up some useful info from time to time but it's all basic stuff that anyone who has trained consistently for 5+ years already knows.
I'm all for doing scientific studies but I agree that the hypertrophy studies I've seen are mostly shitty.

If only it were as simple as doing more sets for more gains lol

Like you said, your best guide is YOU and your results (or lack thereof). Throughout the years I've seen people get results with all kinds of training styles so it's obvious there is no one tried and true style for everyone. I personally feel the training style that gets you the most enthusiastic and motivated to go at it with intensity is the one for you. Whichever one that may be.
 

[email protected]

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My first year I did 30+ sets per workout 6 days a week and put on well over 20 pounds of muscle with no peds. And took the sets to failure as best I could and continued training like that for a while but did start adding in more rest days in the second and third year as my strength went up. The workouts could take almost 2 hours. Then I started reading about over training and figured I should change. Many guys used to train like that. Hard to say the Serge Nubret didn't build and muscle or John Defendis on such workouts. I spoke to Defendis a year or so ago and he said now that he is in his 60's he has cut back and only does 30-40 sets per workout as I remember.
i think you can train 2-3 hours and even go to failure but you have absolutely stay away from CNS draining exercises..
you can do 2-3 hours of delt+arms training doing mainly cable work and maschines.
you can also do 2-3 hours doing chest or back if you do exercises that dont fuck your CNS up (lets say pullovers, low impact maschines or stuff like that)
but you can not do squats, leg presses and absolutely not deadlifts in such a training.
i did deadlifts yesterday. 255kg x 3/2/2 and one backoff 210x6. i was fucking done after. i was completely exhausted. and the training was done in 47 minutes
 

brutus69

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do any of you READ the studies or hear them described? these trainees are supervised. controlled studied. read the study methods.
they had hype guys pushing them on every set and rep. they didnt just go off by themselves and fuck around. when they say volitional failure they MEAN it. failure on every set. made that way by the trainers pushing them.
just cuz u cant do it doesnt mean no one can do it.
 

Huehnerbruestchen

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do any of you READ the studies or hear them described? these trainees are supervised. controlled studied. read the study methods.
they had hype guys pushing them on every set and rep. they didnt just go off by themselves and fuck around. when they say volitional failure they MEAN it. failure on every set. made that way by the trainers pushing them.
just cuz u cant do it doesnt mean no one can do it.
Thats the same phrase Mike O Hearn uses when claiming natural.
 

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