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Clen / T3 Muscle Cramps

yardrock

New member
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405
Started a Clen / T3 program 3 days ago.
What I do is crush up 5 Clen (100mcg) and 1 t23 (25mg) and pour them into a thermo drink withn 25mg Ephedra and 200 mg Caffine. Seams to be working great as I am jittery and hot and dont feel hungry. But I have been getting sever hand, forearm and even shoulder cramps. What is causing this reaction?
 
probably the clen... it's a common side effect.

I've been able to avoid it by taking a good multi vitamin/mineral that has plenty of potassium, and drinking plenty of water. Just did some quick research, and found suggestions for the same, plus taurine at 3-5g ed.
 
btw, is this your first time using clen, and did you just jump right in with 100mcg? Most people ramp up their first time to find their tolerance level. Mine was 100mcg ed my first time (more and headaches were too bad), but I've run up to 200mcg ed subsequently
 
WeirdAl said:
btw, is this your first time using clen, and did you just jump right in with 100mcg? Most people ramp up their first time to find their tolerance level. Mine was 100mcg ed my first time (more and headaches were too bad), but I've run up to 200mcg ed subsequently

Yes, first time. Jumped right into it. Dont mind the jitters or the heat but the cramps hurt. Thanks. I take a good muti will add some pot. and Taurine
 
don't neglect the water, either, and good luck! I've had good luck eating a banana or two to immediately cope with the cramps, but that's probably counter-productive to your goals assuming you're cutting.

The "no-salt" salt substitute crap is basically all potassium chloride
 
yardrock said:
Started a Clen / T3 program 3 days ago.
What I do is crush up 5 Clen (100mcg) and 1 t23 (25mg) and pour them into a thermo drink withn 25mg Ephedra and 200 mg Caffine. Seams to be working great as I am jittery and hot and dont feel hungry. But I have been getting sever hand, forearm and even shoulder cramps. What is causing this reaction?

90mg potassium supplement daily, with lots of water. Or, a couple of bananas a day.

Why the ephedra & caffeine? I'd leave those off until the end of the T-3/Clen combo, then use ECA with a strict low carb, low fat diet for 3-5 weeks to avoid rebound.

Clen will make you jumpy enough, no need to raise BP with ephedra when the T-3 is already doing so.
 
Thank you Animal!

Taurine also regulates the amount of water in the cell as well as Mg and Ca transfers and affects the transfer of metabolic products out of the cell such as free radicals. In the use of DNP you have an overload of free radicals. So if your liver is losing it's taurine it is having its osmotic pressure changed across the surface of the cell just like glycogen depletion! T4 t3 conversion will stop!


Furthermore, as I have stated, you take Mg, Ca, AND TAURINE for muscle cramps for this very reason! Taurine is being depleted from EVERY cell while on clenbuterol and so you cramp.

Here is another study to prove that:
Painful muscle cramps in liver cirrhosis and effects of oral taurine administration
Author
Yamamoto S; Ohmoto K; Ideguchi S; Yamamoto R; Mitsui Y; Shimabara M; Iguchi Y; Ohumi T; Takatori K
Address
Division of Gastroenterology (I), Kawasaki Medical School.
Source
Nippon Shokakibyo Gakkai Zasshi, 91(7):1205 9 1994 Jul
Abstract
We administered 3 g of taurine orally for four weeks to 35 patients suffering from liver cirrhosis with repeated muscle cramp (MC). Improvement of MC was noted in 22 cases (62.9%). We also determined the plasma taurine concentration in eight cases of liver cirrhosis with MC. The plasma taurine concentration before ingestion was 54.1 +/ 20.7 nmol/ml, whereas that of four weeks after ingestion was 125.1 +/ 59.1 nmol/ml, which was significantly elevated by 2.3 fold. As the concentration increased, the frequency of MC decreased, suggesting the good correlation between ingestion and the decrease in frequency of MC. In liver cirrhosis without MC the plasma taurine concentration was 81.0 +/ 16.7 nmol/ml, which was significantly higher than in liver cirrhosis
with MC. In a few cases with taurine ingestion, serial plasma taurine concentrations were detected. Plasma taurine reached the peak value during the first week of ingestion and plasma taurine levels were maintained 2 5 fold higher during ingestion.


So, what have we learned?
Taurine is the cause of cramps.
Taurine is most likely the cause of clenbuterol's downgrade.

I have worked with people who had cramps and tried supplementing potassium with little benefits. Not to say that it doesn't work, but YOU could be treating SYMPTOMS instead of the cause. Flow of taurine out of the cell and its water will also take the others with it (potassium).

Additionally, Taurine is not incorporated into proteins but remains free in the tissues, especially
muscle and nerve tissues. Cramping is not only a function of muscle cells, but the study above showed that it may also be a function of nerve cells. When they lose their equilibrium they are what cramps and THIS is why you cramp on STUPID SCAM CREATINE. Creatine goes into the muscle and while your muscles hold onto more water the ratio in nerve cells will still change (lower) with exercise and you get cramps.

Again, I'm not saying that potassium won't work, but that is symptom and not a cause.


Taurine


Taurine, a sulfur containing amino acid derived from the amino acid cystine, is a component of the bile salts produced in the liver (it was first isolated from ox bile). It is important for proper digestion of fats and absorption of fat soluble vitamins. But only a fraction of available taurine is used to make bile salts,2 while an enormous amount floats freely inside cells.

Taurine is not incorporated into proteins but remains free in the tissues, especially muscle and nerve tissues. It has a number of therapeutic uses including acting as a membrane stabilizer and reducing arrhythmias of the heart. Taurine also enhances the contractile strength of heart muscle (called a positive inotropic effect)3, and thus can help treat heart failure which is a decreased ability of the heart to pump out all the blood that flows into it. When the heart is failing, the blood backs up and forces fluid out into the tissues (edema) by osmosis. This leads to either swelling of the legs or fluid in the lungs and shortness of breath, depending on which part of the heart is more involved.

In a 1984 animal study, taurine protected against heart failure, reducing mortality by 80 percent in the taurine treated group with no diminishment of cardiac function.4 In a later animal study in 1988, taurine was shown to lower blood pressure.5 My own clinical experience confirms some of these effects of taurine, and I commonly give it to patients with heart failure and high blood pressure.

Taurine is also beneficial for the eyes enhancing the rods and cones (the pigmented epithelial cells in the retina of the eye that serve as visual receptor cells). The greatest visual acuity occurs in the macular area of the retina near where the optic nerve enters from the back of the eye. With aging, the macula commonly degenerates as rods and cones die, often causing blindness. What causes the degeneration is not clear, but it is more common in diabetics and may be the result of free radical damage from ultraviolet light or oxygen exposure.6

A review of animal studies reveals that taurine appears to protect the eyes from macular degeneration.7 In one 1975 research report, a diet deficient in taurine was associated with retinal degeneration in cats.8 Thus, taurine can be part of a comprehensive approach to macular degeneration that also includes antioxidant nutrients, minerals, flavonoids, botanicals and chelation therapy (an intravenous therapy done in a doctor's office).

Because taurine is a neuroinhibitory amino acid, it may help treat seizure disorders. Some animal studies have suggested a role for taurine in controlling seizures, but the results are not consistent. In 1977, a cat with chronic epileptic seizures was successfully treated with taurine both orally and intravenously.9 Other studies have also suggested taurine's supportive role for seizures, but some clinical trials have shown limited benefits or have not confirmed this effect of taurine. I have used
taurine, in combination with magnesium and other nutrients, in my seizure patients with some success. It seems to enhance the effects of some of their seizure medications so they can take a lower dose.




REFERENCES

1. Linder, M., Ed. Nutritional Biochemistry and Metabolism, 2nd edition, Elsevier Scientific Publishing,
1991.

2. Chesney R.W. "Taurine: Its biological role and clinical implications," Adv Pediatr 32: 1 42, 1985.

3. Pisarenko, O.I. "Mechanisms of myocardial protection by amino acids: Facts and hypotheses," Clin Exp
Pharmacol Physiol 23(8): 627 33, August, 1996.

4. Azuma, J., et al. "Beneficial effect of taurine on congestive heart failure induced by chronic aortic
regurgitation in rabbits," Res Commun Chem Pathol Pharmacol 45(2): 261 70, August, 1984.

5. Fujita, T., Sato, Y. "Hypotensive effect of taurine. Possible involvement of the sympathetic nervous system
and endogenous opiates," J Clin Invest 82(3): 993 97. September 1988.

6. Gaby, A.R., Wright, J.V. "Nutritional factors in degenerative eye disorders: Cataract and macular
degeneration," J Adv Med 6(1): 27 4O, Spring 1993.

7. Chesney, R.W. op. cit.

8. Hayes, K.C., Carey, R.E., et al. "Retinal degeneration associated with taurine deficiency in the cat,"
Science l88(4191): 949 51, May 30, 1975.

9. van Gelder, N.M., Koyama, I., et al. "Taurine treatment of spontaneous chronic epilepsy in a cat,"
Epilepsia 18(1): 45 54, March, 1977.

10. Pola, P., et al. "Statistical evaluation of long term L carnitine therapy in hyperlipoproteinaemias," Drugs
Exptl Clin Res 9: 925 34, 1983.

11. Orlando, G., Rusconi, C. "Oral L carnitine in the treatment of chronic cardiac ischaemia in elderly
patients," Clin Trials J 23: 338 44, 1986.

12. Singh, R.B., Niaz, M.A., et al. "A randomised, double blind, placebo controlled trial of L carnitine in
suspected acute myocardial infarction," Postgrad Med J 72(843): 45 50, January 1996.

13. Kobayashi, A., Watanabe, H., et al. "Effects of L carnitine and palmitoylcarnitine on membrane fluidity of

human erythrocytes," Biochim Biophys Acta 986(1): 83 8. Nov. 17, 1989.

14. Ghidini, O., Azzurro, M., et al. "Evaluation of the therapeutic efficacy of L carnitine in congestive heart
failure," Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol 26(4): 217 20, April l988.

15. Dragan, I.G., Vasiliu A., et al. "Studies concerning chronic and acute effects of L carnitina in elite
athletes" Physiologie 26(2): 111 29, April June, 1989.

Taurine is the most abundant free amino acid in the brain, heart, and nervous system, and it plays a role in the normal functioning of the brain, heart, gallbladder, eyes, and vascular system. It facilitates the passage of sodium, potassium, and, possibly, calcium and magnesium, ions into and
out of cells, and electrically stabalizes cell membranes. It modulates the activity the activity of cAMP, which activates important enzymes in heary muscle, and contributes to the muscle's contractibility. Taurine is an important component of bile acids which aid in the absorption of fat soluble vitamins. It aids the body's chemistry by detoxifying harmful chemicals. Dietary taurine stimulates the formation of taurocholate, a substance which increases cholesterol secretion in the bile and also improves fat metabolism in the liver. Taurine offers a wide range of nutritional support to many organ systems throughout the body; as a supplement it is most notable known for
its heart muscle support.

This study finds taurine to be beneficial in preventing arteriosclerosis.

http://www.nandotimes.com/healthscience/story/704565p-5201819c.html

Excerpt:

"When blood vessels are exposed to cigarette smoke, it causes the vessels to
behave like a rigid pipe rather than a flexible tube, and thus the vessels
can't dilate in response to increased blood flow," said Dr. David
Bouchier-Hayes, senior author of the study involving vitamin C and fish,
published in Circulation: Journal of the American Heart Association. He is a
professor of surgery at the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin, Ireland.

This progressive inflexibility is one of the earliest signs of hardening of
the arteries, a major cause of heart attacks and stroke.
...
His team recruited 15 healthy smokers aged 20 to 37 and a control group of
15 healthy non-smokers. The smokers were given either two grams a day of
vitamin C for five days or 1.5 grams of taurine, the amino acid from fish,
for five days. They then waited for two weeks and switched treatments.

The researchers used a test of blood vessel function that takes ultrasound
images of blood vessel diameter in the arm after a tourniquet is placed on
the forearm. The better the blood vessel expands once flow is restored, the
better its flexible function.

Test subjects were measured before the supplements were given, and again
after each series of treatment.

At the start of the experiment, the average diameter of the non-smokers'
blood vessel was 3.39 millimeters, vs. 3.33 for the smokers. After the
tourniquet was released, that measure went up to 3.7 mm in non-smokers, but
increased to just 3.36 mm in the smokers.

When they took vitamin C, the smokers' average improved to 3.45 mm in the
test, and when given taurine, the smokers' vessel response was virtually the
same as the non-smokers, averaging 3.7 mm.

Taurine is found in many foods, but is most abundant in all types of fish,
including white fish, Bouchier-Hayes said. The amount used in the study is
equivalent to that found in a typical fish entree.
 
Nutr Hosp 2002 Nov-Dec;17(6):262-70 Links


Taurine: a conditionally essential amino acid in humans? An overview in health and disease.

Lourenco R, Camilo ME.




"...taurine has a unique chemical structure that implies important physiological functions: bile acid conjugation and cholestasis prevention, antiarrhythmic/inotropic/chronotropic effects, central nervous system neuromodulation, retinal development and function, endocrine/metabolic effects and antioxidant/antiinflammatory properties..."

Pure powder from Animal costs 9 bucks for 500grams
One LEVEL teaspoon weighs 5gr.

Taurine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter that actsas modulator of the hypothalamic release of do-pamine and GABA [5].

5] Arias P, H Jarry, V Convertini, M Ginzburg, WWuttke; J Moguilevsky: Changes in mediobasalhypothalamic dopamine and GABA release:possi-ble mechanism underlying taurine-induced prolac-tin secretion. Amino Acids 15 (1998)

http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/011500.htm

Taurine is an amino acid which plays a major role in the brain as an "inhibitory" neurotransmitter & neuromodulator. It is similiar in structure to the amino acids GABA & L-Glycine, which are also neuroinhibitory. This means it helps to calm or stabilize an excited brain.

Taurine stabilizes nerve cell membranes thus depressing the firing of brain cells & dampening the nerve cell action of the excitatory amino acids, glutamate, aspartate, & quinolinate.

Taurine acts by regulating the sodium & potassium concentration in the cells & the magnesium level between the cells. This has everything to do with the electrical activity of the cells & subsequent communication between cells.

By this mechanism, it has anti-anxiety & anti-convulsant activity. It has also been found useful in some cases of migraine, insomnia, agitation, restlessness, irritability, alcoholism, obsessions, depression, hypomania/mania.

Dosage is from 500 mg twice daily to a total of 5000 mg daily in 3-4 divided doses, though I rarely recommend that high a dose. The total ideal body pool of taurine for adults is 12,000- 18,000 mg.

Since taurine also affects the hypothalamus to help regulate body temperature, a higher dose can decrease your temperature & give chilliness, so be aware of that.

Taurine also plays a role in memory & increases the level of a memory neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, in the brain (in animal studies).


And here for your High Bp and fatness!

CARDIOVASCULAR: Taurine is the most abundant amino acid in the heart, a particularly electrically excitable tissue, as are the brain & eye. Since taurine participates in electrical stabilization of the cell membranes & the normal regulation of nerve-muscle interaction, it is useful in heart irregularities & mitral valve prolapse, acting similarly to a calcium channel blocker (a class of drugs used in CV Disease) Taurine also helps control high blood pressure & is useful in congestive heart failure.

DIABETES: Taurine affects carbohydrate metabolism. It potentiates the effect of insulin, enhances glucose utilization & glycogen (stored glucose) synthesis.

FAT METABOLISM: Taurine reduces cholesterol by forming bile acids which are the end products of cholesterol breakdown & are the only route for eliminating cholesterol from the body. This action requires a functioning gall bladder. Taurine has an inhibitory effect on the formation of cholesterol gall stones. It is required for efficient fat absorption & solubilization. It is helpful in states of fat malabsorption such as with cystic fibrosis & other pancreatic deficiency syndromes.
 
...

I suffered dreadfully from cramps when I was a teenager - wish I knew what I know now, back then.

but why oh WHY are you taking 100mc clen (in one go?) plus everything else under the sun? If it's your first go, stick to a decent but sensible T3/clen combo - with doses somewhat divided - and add the caff etc later on. IronMike
 

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