DC TRAINING... IaBadMan, DoggCrapp, Conan, Phil Hernon etc..

[TooPowerful4u]

I had a discussion with Conan last night and i hope he will chime in since i want to get a discussion on this subject going and i have nowhere near the training knowledge he has. I just got the "gist" of it from him and i understand the idea.. but i cannot go into depth on it like he can.

Pretty much he explained his views and knowledge on the subject, and why DC Training is more effective for advanced trainers who had been used to high volume for a while, and why the transition to this type of training can be very effective, although not able to be sustained for a long period of time due to CNS fatigue. I believe he mentioned two different types of hypertrophy that i didnt really have a whole lot of knowledge on, where high volume and lower intensity causes one type, and higher intensity lower volume max effort training stimulates another.

He expressed that he thought rotating these types of training back and forth would be optimal i believe also, im not too sure. I would like to see this discussed more in depth.... hopefully conan will reply here first and be more specific and we can take it from there.

 

[xcelbeyond]

I believe he mentioned two different types of hypertrophy that i didnt really have a whole lot of knowledge on, where high volume and lower intensity causes one type, and higher intensity lower volume max effort training stimulates another.

I like to cycle between these two training methods. With both, each week I progress - increase amount of weight used. With any progressive program, you can ONLY progress to a certain point (plateau). IMHO, it's when you get to that plateau, you tend to push yourself to go further - and the result is injuries.

 

[Steak Helmet]

I did DC training from MAY to NOV and I have to say I saw the best gains I have seen in my days of working out...I turned myself from a hard gainer into a gainer...

I do believe in switching up things...I went to PHIL for some training and I am very happy with the progress...I still dothe DC stretching at the end of each body part. I plan on switching between the 2 every 12 weeks or so depending on when I see gains stopping...or just burntout. or if PHIL has anymore ideas (silly question, I know he does).

I have done some tweeking to somethings, but nothing major...why mess with a good thing?

 

[Iabadman]

First of all ,Conan 21 is a student of the game[ he knows his stuff and I have very reguard for him as a person ] , his methods are from the old school Soviet Union , his bibles are are two excellant manuals [ I believe supertraining is one .....I know the other one......but the names and authors escape me at the moment ......but they are two of the best books ever written on weight training and getting stronger with no doubt and they are the main influence of the great Louie Simmons and the famous West Side BB Club] He and I both agree that getting stronger is the key to hypertrophy ............And I will not argue that the West Side templets are definately some, if not the best methods for increasing strength without a doubt.[ although bigbyrd 52 might disagree and the man obvisously knows a bit about stregth and size ] And it would stand to reason that the best proticals for strength , might also produce the most size , at least they should .......but I have never seen anyone put together a bber protical with the west side methods ......at least not one providing complete muscle development using those principals ,[ I have a feeling you would over train using the volume nessary to do that ......sure you can do the exact routines as they do them specializing on bench and squat , but will you really achieve a bbers physique with that routine? I am not sure ......] Mike francis used west side methods on squats , and bench .......he liked the 8 sets of 3 method .......I spoke with him several times and he impressed me as being very bright with a ton of knowledge .[ and can you doubt his muscle mass ? ] He is the only one I know that wanted ultimate mass that has used those type of methods ..........I honestly have not used them yet in my training ,but if Conan wants to design me the ultimate mass building routine .....I promise I will give it an honest try at some point [ not ready yet ] I dont doubt his reasoning and know their is science behind his beliefs ......I am definately not saying the man is wrong ......I dont have the expirence to say he is wrong anyway ......the man is bright and well versed ...

Funny thing about people not fully understanding Phil's or Dantes methods ........these guys are master observationists ........Dont you think they take CNS burnout into account into their schedules ? Come on now these guys are smart ......If you really understand their methods they structure things by making suttle and obvisious little varriences to avoid CNS burnout , overtraining , and plateau..........people need to study and understand [ pay the men for their time ] these guys methods before they critisize them .....You cant read an artical of something cut and pasted from 6 years ago and fully understand what these guys methods really are .......You can try , but you are missing out of the real meat of the programs ...........only the guys themselves can explain the reasons for doing things the way they do ...........But all I can say is this ...............in my 26 years in bbing .....Dantes program is the best for me period .......Phils [and I am not yet a client, but will be for sure one day ]produced gains similar ,if not better to Dantes , but personally,the workout I used that was suposed to be Phil's did not complement my mental make up as much as dantes and I burned out even though i made great progress[ remember, this factor is important in the overall success of any program as anything else .......but when I actually pay Phil ,is when we see what the real deal is ...until then, i will say what i do know about his training works great ]

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I am not going into detail or touching this post with a 10 foot pole as the other discussions on this topic ended up in a war of words. My take on this. Do what you want to do training wise. Read about a certain kind of training, trust in it, and go bombs away with it. What is idiotic to me is people who are so insecure about their current training method that they have to reaffirm their beliefs by putting down "other" training methods. Dont like it? Go to the next post--simple as that. Thats what I do when I see something (anything) online that isnt near what I personally believe in
Noone wants to think "dammit that other guy must know something I dont and is gaining faster than I am". So with that thought comes "ill attack that method so I can believe 100% in my method again"
I really dont like training (debates/discussions) because it creates huge fights, cures nothing and none of the combatants leave with a changed mind.
I have 15 years of work behind me, multiples of thousands of posts, hundreds upon hundreds of trainee pics online and thats my resume so to speak. If that means nothing to you, it never will and you should do your own thing. If something else meets your fancy, or feels like the right path for you, AGAIN do what you want to do training wise. Toopowerful4u I think your looking for some kind of golden nugget out there that is going to transform you. Want to know what that golden nugget is going to be for you? The workout method that lets you continually progressively train, that you believe in 100%, and you feel like its the right fit for you personally-thats the answer. Via your other post on Iamabadmans thread--there is no workout routine that is going to effect the "shape" of your muscles. Mike Mattarazzos chest isnt going to become Markus Ruhls following a different program, Jeremy Freeman isnt going to get Kevin Levrone shaped triceps by doing something different, Milos Sarcev isnt going to get Ronnie peaked biceps, Johnny Jacksons legs arent going to turn into Branch Warrens legs (and hell they are longtime training partners doing the same routine). Mom and Pop are where you get your shape and everything else is hypertrophy (and maybe hyperplasia)

 

[RazorCuts]

I am not going into detail or touching this post with a 10 foot pole as the other discussions on this topic ended up in a war of words. My take on this. Do what you want to do training wise. Read about a certain kind of training, trust in it, and go bombs away with it. What is idiotic to me is people who are so insecure about their current training method that they have to reaffirm their beliefs by putting down "other" training methods. Dont like it? Go to the next post--simple as that. Thats what I do when I see something (anything) online that isnt near what I personally believe in
Noone wants to think "dammit that other guy must know something I dont and is gaining faster than I am". So with that thought comes "ill attack that method so I can believe 100% in my method again"
I really dont like training (debates/discussions) because it creates huge fights, cures nothing and none of the combatants leave with a changed mind.
I have 15 years of work behind me, multiples of thousands of posts, hundreds upon hundreds of trainee pics online and thats my resume so to speak. If that means nothing to you, it never will and you should do your own thing. If something else meets your fancy, or feels like the right path for you, AGAIN do what you want to do training wise. Toopowerful4u I think your looking for some kind of golden nugget out there that is going to transform you. Want to know what that golden nugget is going to be for you? The workout method that lets you continually progressively train, that you believe in 100%, and you feel like its the right fit for you personally-thats the answer. Via your other post on Iamabadmans thread--there is no workout routine that is going to effect the "shape" of your muscles. Mike Mattarazzos chest isnt going to become Markus Ruhls following a different program, Jeremy Freeman isnt going to get Kevin Levrone shaped triceps by doing something different, Milos Sarcev isnt going to get Ronnie peaked biceps, Johnny Jacksons legs arent going to turn into Branch Warrens legs (and hell they are longtime training partners doing the same routine). Mom and Pop are where you get your shape and everything else is hypertrophy (and maybe hyperplasia)

AMEN!
I love when you, Phil, Iamabadman or DAD post because it cuts through the garbage and hits it head on.

RC

 

[Kaiser]

Yes

I am not going into detail or touching this post with a 10 foot pole as the other discussions on this topic ended up in a war of words. My take on this. Do what you want to do training wise. Read about a certain kind of training, trust in it, and go bombs away with it. What is idiotic to me is people who are so insecure about their current training method that they have to reaffirm their beliefs by putting down "other" training methods. Dont like it? Go to the next post--simple as that. Thats what I do when I see something (anything) online that isnt near what I personally believe in
Noone wants to think "dammit that other guy must know something I dont and is gaining faster than I am". So with that thought comes "ill attack that method so I can believe 100% in my method again"
I really dont like training (debates/discussions) because it creates huge fights, cures nothing and none of the combatants leave with a changed mind.
I have 15 years of work behind me, multiples of thousands of posts, hundreds upon hundreds of trainee pics online and thats my resume so to speak. If that means nothing to you, it never will and you should do your own thing. If something else meets your fancy, or feels like the right path for you, AGAIN do what you want to do training wise. Toopowerful4u I think your looking for some kind of golden nugget out there that is going to transform you. Want to know what that golden nugget is going to be for you? The workout method that lets you continually progressively train, that you believe in 100%, and you feel like its the right fit for you personally-thats the answer. Via your other post on Iamabadmans thread--there is no workout routine that is going to effect the "shape" of your muscles. Mike Mattarazzos chest isnt going to become Markus Ruhls following a different program, Jeremy Freeman isnt going to get Kevin Levrone shaped triceps by doing something different, Milos Sarcev isnt going to get Ronnie peaked biceps, Johnny Jacksons legs arent going to turn into Branch Warrens legs (and hell they are longtime training partners doing the same routine). Mom and Pop are where you get your shape and everything else is hypertrophy (and maybe hyperplasia)

Beautiful, perfect.

 

[Vander_V]

I dont really look into things to much i guess , im more so old school just grab a weight and move it , all these methods for surely work but only you know your bodys reaction and response to each one , in my experiences ANYTHING works doesnt matter wtf i do it will work just so long as im consitant and have the proper rest time , example - my old man did nothing but chinups push ups and straight bar curls , his chest was extremely large for his physique and his arms reached 18s and back in the day 18s were unheard of , if i can find this picture of him on his boat with his shirt off youll undertsand any methods will work he did a mon weds friday split and he told me he never missed a day , so if these guys back in the day could build solid quailty muscle simply using 3 basic exercises then i dont think theres much of a science to it or maybe none at all , just my thoughts from what ive seen with my own eyes.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

DC i was in no way bashing your methods at all, if anything i always praise them. I just like to learn and figured this would be an interesting topic. Guess not. I have seen and heard of the people you have transformed, which was nothing short of amazing. David Henry looks thick as friggen hell now, you took him from a middleweight to a HWT and he kept his lines. I think i have found my "golden nugget" and that is ... i need to get serious offseason, listen to one person all the way, follow it 100%, and get the job done. Iabadman has shown me what i believe is the correct path and told me what i need to do... i trust him and i respect his vast knowledge and i am going to follow it... il be in touch after my summer shows are done.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

toopowerful I wasnt talking about you at all with the bashing--I was talking about prior posts on this subject on this and other boards. Im just at the point in my life that I hate arguing and would rather just have people do what they want to do training wise

 

[Iabadman]

Dante .......Tp quit searching for the Holy grail [ finally ....but think about when you were 23 .....what were you like ? I was searching until I found you as well ...same age as him ] He knows he needs to take a couple years off and fill out and become a 235 pound bber on stage [ 275 -280 off season]if that is what he wants to do .....He is a very motivated kid [ misunderstood at times , but a good kid with alot of potential ] he needs to spend some real time focussing on his life outside of bbing and while doing so ,he needs to become a bigger, better ,smarter bber [and person]...i explained to him that you are the best in the business at doing what he needs ......he is going to quit searching , have some trust , and let just lose after his shows .......he hopes you will take him on as a client [ and so do I .....call me about his if you want ] But TP has my endorsement .....if he blows it then he will deal with me ...........

 

[Conan21]

TP4U

I didn't think your question was meant to cause trouble or start a bashing contest either. But it seems there is a lot of tension in DC's post so this probably is not a good thing to start. I never said that DC training would necessarily cause CNS overtraining. but that it doesn't optimize sacroplasmic hypertrophy and eventually leads to decreased work capicity. But yes, its very imporant to vary volume. Scott Abell, who we were talking about last night does this. High volume training turns into higher load, lower volume over time. I think he has something in his articles about this. He refers to it as the Wheel of intensity I believe.

Iabadman

Thanks for the kind words. I actually have very different views on size training and strength training. Some guys can be very big but not strong or very strong but not very big. my opinion is that powerlifting compliments bodybuilding. I just point out science to powerlifting b/c places like West Side , Metal Militia apply all of the ideas from soviet/easter bloc training and now have lifters benching over 1,000 lbs. I just try to raise the question why don't bodybuiders also try to follow the hypertrophy views of guys like Mell Siff,Zatsiorky,bompa etc.

If I could recommend people look into one thing about training, It would be protein degradation of muscles and also motor unit activation. As this would create a clearer picture of atleast how strength and size training differ.

Razor Cuts

is the stuff I say the garbage?

 

[RazorCuts]

Razor Cuts

is the stuff I say the garbage?

Conan i think you miss understood. I was not refferening to you and your ideas as garbage as we know you have many sound ideas. It was just a generalized statement that these guys dont bull**** and shoot from the hip. It had nothing to do with you.
I do not down anyones principles since i feel they all can benefit someone at sometime.
Everyone has thier own opinions and thats the way it should be. Theres a million ways to skin a cat.
Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

RC

 

[TONE]

I dont really look into things to much i guess , im more so old school just grab a weight and move it , all these methods for surely work but only you know your bodys reaction and response to each one , in my experiences ANYTHING works doesnt matter wtf i do it will work just so long as im consitant and have the proper rest time , example - my old man did nothing but chinups push ups and straight bar curls , his chest was extremely large for his physique and his arms reached 18s and back in the day 18s were unheard of , if i can find this picture of him on his boat with his shirt off youll undertsand any methods will work he did a mon weds friday split and he told me he never missed a day , so if these guys back in the day could build solid quailty muscle simply using 3 basic exercises then i dont think theres much of a science to it or maybe none at all , just my thoughts from what ive seen with my own eyes.

Post that shit up V dawg!!! Diesel Pops, lookout!!!

 

[BrooklynBB]

so if these guys back in the day could build solid quailty muscle simply using 3 basic exercises then i dont think theres much of a science to it or maybe none at all , just my thoughts from what ive seen with my own eyes.

He may have had great genetics, and from what I've heard about you, so do you.

Some of us have to use some science, some common sense in regards to training and diet, and some supplements in order to get 18 inches on our arms. Some of us can stare at a weight and feel fatigued. Others can do pushups and develop thier serratus muscles.

But I think the main point here is that if you stick with a program long enough, you'll get results. The thing to keep in mind is which one will get you to your goals quicker than the other? Not that one sucks or one is superior in terms of gains. It's faster gains over a shorter period of time than ever before.

One cannot truly prove that CNS fatigue kicks in on any routine. CNS could fatigued by lack of sleep, poor digestion, stress - there are hosts of factors unrelated to training method that can hinder progress.

And of course, genetics. I'm naturally strong in my back and could deadlift a house. But most other body parts lag. Back comes easy for me. Hell biceps comes easy for me. But everything else is a struggle. That's the card I was dealt, now I have to figure out how to balance it out using ideas that others have come up with through anecdotal, scientific and personal experience.

I love DC's methods and ideas and Phil's ideas, and I incorporate both into my training, using a sort of hybrid. Is it the best for you? Probably not. It'll work for me - hell, it's been working.

The struggle is to have the mental fortitude to stick with an idea that's so diametrically opposed to your own brainwashed methods to see that the magazines have it wrong and are writing about genetic monsters and not the millions of struggling trainees who look like nothing on genetic-monster routines.

 

[New_Mass]

VERY GOOD! you've covered a lot of good points here

Some of us have to use some science, some common sense in regards to training and diet, and some supplements in order to get 18 inches on our arms. Some of us can stare at a weight and feel fatigued. Others can do pushups and develop thier serratus muscles.

But I think the main point here is that if you stick with a program long enough, you'll get results. The thing to keep in mind is which one will get you to your goals quicker than the other? Not that one sucks or one is superior in terms of gains. It's faster gains over a shorter period of time than ever before.

One cannot truly prove that CNS fatigue kicks in on any routine. CNS could fatigued by lack of sleep, poor digestion, stress - there are hosts of factors unrelated to training method that can hinder progress.

And of course, genetics. I'm naturally strong in my back and could deadlift a house. But most other body parts lag. Back comes easy for me. Hell biceps comes easy for me. But everything else is a struggle. That's the card I was dealt, now I have to figure out how to balance it out using ideas that others have come up with through anecdotal, scientific and personal experience.

I love DC's methods and ideas and Phil's ideas, and I incorporate both into my training, using a sort of hybrid. Is it the best for you? Probably not. It'll work for me - hell, it's been working.

The struggle is to have the mental fortitude to stick with an idea that's so diametrically opposed to your own brainwashed methods to see that the magazines have it wrong and are writing about genetic monsters and not the millions of struggling trainees who look like nothing on genetic-monster routines.

 

[PDFlifter3]

i absolutely agree with vander...pick something and go 100% for as long as your body responds and then change it up. guess that makes some of us more instinctive type trainers. no matter what, genetics have something to do with how you look, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN EXISTENCE that says you cant maximize the genetics youre given! my opinion is that DC is great, HITT is great, and so are old school bodybuilding methods with tons of volume. its not applicable only to bbers...i have done a couple of turns as an assistant strength and conditioning coach while in college, and this applies to all athletes as well. summed up, vast knowledge is one of the key tenets, in my opinion, to success as a bodybuilder, or any kind of athlete for that matter.

Iabadman-
i would kill to know the exact names of the two books you mentioned. if at all possible, id be eternally grateful if you could find them out and pm me.

 

[Iabadman]

I will find them for you .......get me abit to locate them .....I have them buried somewhere

 

[JasonWojo]

While training (and eating) with 100% effort is definitely the most important factor, clearly not all training methods are equivalent. While there is no "holy grail", some forms of training are better than others. The guys that can grow doing 20 sets a bodypart are also the same ones that would grow from one set.

Personally for me all I know is that DC training has gotten me bigger and stronger than any other method.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

While training (and eating) with 100% effort is definitely the most important factor, clearly not all training methods are equivalent. While there is no "holy grail", some forms of training are better than others. The guys that can grow doing 20 sets a bodypart are also the same ones that would grow from one set.

Personally for me all I know is that DC training has gotten me bigger and stronger than any other method.

I had a feeling you were a DC'r you carry the look (thickness all over)

I agree. I have so much confidence in DC becuase 1.5yrs ago i gave it a shot on my own from all the research on it i could do, and that was the strongest i had ever been (and this was ONLY the training, not the diet n everything else included). BUT without his guidance... it was inevitable that i would screw up and almost hurt myself. Decided to try to do shoulders on a thurs knowin full well that friday was chest shoulders tris n back... so i end up shoulder pressin 2 plates and a 25 on the smith almost all the way to my collar bone (no joke) for sets of 10, then next day when i tried to rest pause on incline smith i hurt my chest. Actually i have to this day still not returned to my previous strongest point when i was doin DC and benchin 315 on incline for 6 (i did like 2-3 reps 2 weeks ago). I would revert back to it now, but i like the volume while im precontest dieting, burns more calories during the workout.

I cant wait to start bulking again in sept/oct and DC it up again.... hopefully with his guidance this time. Not only do i believe he is a master at gaining mass, but i also strongly believe you will push harder and get better results when you are held accountable ( i am lucky to have met a good friend who will do this and keep my ass in check, and also by DC). Another part about this that i love... beat the log book.... im so damn competitive (even with myself) this will be actually fun for me and il look foward to it. I absolutly love breaking bounderies and taking huge strides... ok i better stop this post is long enough and im gettin myself all excited haha