Designing a short cycle- PB style

[Nate Dawg]

have been reading alot lately the past month or so on Paul Borresen's cycle theories, and I have decided to give one of his cycles a try. Currently I am priming with carb cycling, and the two weeks before the cycle I am going to go very low carb, and then slam the food once the cycle starts. Wei***ng around 210-215, max lifts are 415 bench, 535 squat and 535 deadlift. Here is my past cycle experience to help give you all an idea on what doses I should run this cycle:

1st cycle: test prop 125mg eod/tren ace 100 mg eod- 5 weeks

2nd cycle: 13 weeks
test enanthate- ranged from 500-1000mg/week
tren ace- 450mg/week- 7 weeks
dbol- 50mg/day- 6 weeks

3rd cycle: (things start getting way too drawn out!) 28 weeks
test enanthate- ranged from 500-1500mg/week
tren enanthate- 700mg/week 13 weeks
NPP- 400mg/week 6 weeks
anadrol- 100mg/day- 6 weeks
dbol- 25-75mg/day- way too long...probably 18 weeks total
anavar- 50mg/day 4 weeks
All products were interchanged throughout cycle, test was base of cycle. Got blood tests after the cycle and everything test fine, liver enzymes barely elevated.

4th cycle: another long one...32 weeks, contained about everything under the sun..
test enanthate- 600-1500mg/week
tren ace- 525-800mg/week
winstrol- 50-100mg/day
dbol- 20-80mg/day
masteron- 400mg/week
anadrol- 75-125mg/day
tbol-80mg/day
anavar-80-100mg/day


So there is my AAS usage history, a little excessive..so after reading on these short cycle theories and talking to lots of people and observing my own experiences with gear, short cycles seem like the best way to go. I notice at the 6-8 week mark my gains pretty much stall, so thats what makes so musch sense about the shorties. Also I am tired of the long cycles because of the long off time required afterwards, as well as the long periods of smashed cholesterol levels cant be good either. I've been searching as much as I can and reading all over the boards trying to gather as much info as possible, I also have ALR's Building the Perfect Beast.

As far as the gear choices for this cycle, I homebrew everything and I have pretty much everything at my disposal. I am wanting this cycle to be 6 weeks long, going to be doing DC training and hit a hard 6 week blast coinciding with the cycle. Here is what I kind of thought up, I am unsure of the doses and when exactly some of the compounds should be used.


Day 1-13: Test blend (125mg test e/125mg test cyp/50mg test prop per ml)- 600mg eod?
Day 1-13: Tren ace 100mg/day
Day 1-21: Anadrol 100mg/day
Day 14-30: Test prop 200mg/day-Tren ace 100mg/day-Masteron 60mg/day-Boldenone base transdermal
Day 31-42: Test prop 200mg/day-masteron 60mg/day-bold base-winstrol 75mg/day


How does that look? Are there any compounds I should take out? I'm not real nuts about doing any deca so thats why I have the transdermal boldenone in there, and EQ has such a long half life it would be hard to get it to work in a short cycle unless a multi gram front load was used. The masteron is for hardening and SHBG purposes. Do I need to change the length of times that any one of the compounds are used?

From what I have read it seems that a hard high dose cycle such as this is ran, then followed by time off, I was thinking a good 3-4 week pct, then a more normal dosed cycle for another 6 weeks or so to maintain gains and add a bit more.

One thing I was curious about was should I just not even worry about the long estered tests and go with test prop straight from the beginning? Although I notice alot of these blast cycles are frontloaded with a long ester so there must be a reason for that.

If anyone could give me any input on how to better set this up and any of your own personal experiences I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[Zuke]

Thats alot of drugs and one hell of a AAS history. Unless you are making a living off your physique (and your not) since you are asking our opinion. I think you need to rethink this. Its just an awful lot. You need to stop iusing Tren in every cycle. What does your bloodwork look like? Id like to see a an attachment, because I won't beleive you if you say fine.

 

[Liphted]

My first question is do you respond poorly to gear? Your 4th cycle is just plain ridiculous to me. Did you really run tren for 32 weeks?

I personally run short cycles for many of the reasons you've stated plus some others and I don't ever see myself going back to longer cycles again. But, I must say I think you are making things way too complicated as far as hormones go, but I don't know your goals etc.

Also, where are you coming up with the durations to run your proposed hormones? The odd choices for length in days seems arbitrarily random. I feel that running so many different things for such short periods of time is limiting the effects of the specific substance. For instance, your choice to throw winny in the last 11 days. For what? The benefits your hoping to see from that are strictly in your head.

IMO you would see much better results dropping a couple of things and running the others from day 1 to 42. Thats a short period of time no matter how you look at it with respect to achieving noticeable LBM gains. What I'm trying to get at in my very round about way is that you need to take full advantage of any one thing instead of trying to get little contributions here and there from numerous ones.

On to your long ester question. Forget the test blend, in thirteen days you will not notice (and scientifically speaking, should never notice) a difference between Test Cyp. and Test E. Again, your just complicating things for the sake of complication. Get your test levels high using a single long-ester for that first week, 5 days after the injection of the long-ester test keep it there with prop for the rest of the duration. Simple, easy, and it works. I typically have that first injection contain 1.5x's the amount of test I plan on running the rest of the cycle. This isn't something I've just guessed at, there is a reason, and if you search on this board you'll come across a post of mine discussing it.

So, I like what you've laid out in theory, but like I've said you are complicating things severely. Also, chances are that back to back cycles of tren are eventually going to catch up to you. Tren is amazing, there is no denying that, but it should not be a staple of ALL your cycles.

 

[Nate Dawg]

Thats alot of drugs and one hell of a AAS history. Unless you are making a living off your physique (and your not) since you are asking our opinion. I think you need to rethink this. Its just an awful lot. You need to stop iusing Tren in every cycle. What does your bloodwork look like? Id like to see a an attachment, because I won't beleive you if you say fine.

I agree that is overkill and stupid what I have done in the past, I'm just laying it out there of what I have done and I knew I was going to get flamed for it, but just being honest with you all. Blood work after my first long cycle came back fine, havent got the results back from the last cycle. I never took any while I was on cycle, I know I should have, but I didnt. I'm sure my cholesterol is/was destroyed from the orals, I've been contemplating just being done with orals completely and sticking to injectables...I was also wondering if I should probably leave the tren out since I have ran quite a bit in the past, I know everyone says its bad for your kidneys, but from a few vets I have talked to and blood work I have seen, the bloodwork didnt confirm any extra stress from tren..just what I have seen.

 

[Nate Dawg]

My first question is do you respond poorly to gear? Your 4th cycle is just plain ridiculous to me. Did you really run tren for 32 weeks?

I personally run short cycles for many of the reasons you've stated plus some others and I don't ever see myself going back to longer cycles again. But, I must say I think you are making things way too complicated as far as hormones go, but I don't know your goals etc.

Also, where are you coming up with the durations to run your proposed hormones? The odd choices for length in days seems arbitrarily random. I feel that running so many different things for such short periods of time is limiting the effects of the specific substance. For instance, your choice to throw winny in the last 11 days. For what? The benefits your hoping to see from that are strictly in your head.

IMO you would see much better results dropping a couple of things and running the others from day 1 to 42. Thats a short period of time no matter how you look at it with respect to achieving noticeable LBM gains. What I'm trying to get at in my very round about way is that you need to take full advantage of any one thing instead of trying to get little contributions here and there from numerous ones.

On to your long ester question. Forget the test blend, in thirteen days you will not notice (and scientifically speaking, should never notice) a difference between Test Cyp. and Test E. Again, your just complicating things for the sake of complication. Get your test levels high using a single long-ester for that first week, 5 days after the injection of the long-ester test keep it there with prop for the rest of the duration. Simple, easy, and it works. I typically have that first injection contain 1.5x's the amount of test I plan on running the rest of the cycle. This isn't something I've just guessed at, there is a reason, and if you search on this board you'll come across a post of mine discussing it.

So, I like what you've laid out in theory, but like I've said you are complicating things severely. Also, chances are that back to back cycles of tren are eventually going to catch up to you. Tren is amazing, there is no denying that, but it should not be a staple of ALL your cycles.

Hey Liphted, yes I do respond poorly to gear. I get consistent strength gains from it, but I have a horrible time putting on weight..calories calories calories, I know, when on cycle I was eating over 4600 cals/day, and 400g of protein per day was the minimum, carbs were around 500g/day, workout days were closer to 700g lol. The food was there, the gear was there (alot at that), and still I dont respond that great. Training was DC the entire cycle, which is by far my favorite training program, made PR's pretty much every single week for quite some time.

My goals are both strength and size, leaning a little more towards the strength aspect at this point in time.

I know everything seems really random from the way the cycle is set up, I have seen several 4 week cycles that were set up by Borresen, and I was just trying to kind of change things around to make it fit 6 weeks, having the long esters clear by pct etc....I agree with it make sense to just pretty much run everything straight from beginning to end with no "phases" in there, but I am just emulating what I have seen of Borresen's cycles, as well as ALR's.

The reason for the test c/test e blend is I homebrew everything, and I notice if I made something at a higher concentration, combining the two esters made it painless and since prop is going to be in it any reduction in pain is welcomed! I know there is basically no difference between cyp and enan, they are just combined for the aspect of reducing pain, because the injections will be frequent. I have seen the calculations on half lives pertaining to the benefit of frontloading, I agree its a great idea. The winny was thrown in at the end to help reduce SHBG levels.

I just made this cycle from examples I have seen by PB and ALR. To me it makes more sense just to pick a couple compounds and run them straight from beginning to end, but these guys know more than I do and they have cycles set up that way for a reason, guys get good results off them, so I'm just trying to figure out the rhyme and reason on how these are set up and what dosages to use.

 

[felthamboy]

first off i think you have balls to be up frount and tell the truth about hat you have done in the past most guys dont

i think the reason pb and alr both complicate there cycles to sell book if they wright simpal cycles why would anyone buy there stuff

 

[manboy270]

Hey man not trying to come off like a dick but think about slowing down. You already admit to "excessive" use and now you want to do a PB blast? I used to read all of his bullshit back when he was still alive. I even experimented w/ some of his "theories" and the results were nothing short of side-effect city! The guy was a self-proclaimed scientist/liar/scam artist turns out and died due to his own excess(morphine I believe). I actually had to quit this whole lifestyle for awhile(almost 2 years) to get healthy again. Not blaming PB either-after you fuck yourself up the only one to blame is you. Several others on this board experimented with it as well and have had some very serious health issues(life-threatening) posted lately-just do a search. Number one is stay healthy-don't want to be big in a box. Simple fact is w/ consistency and top notch diet and sensible amounts of anabolics, I'm bigger and leaner than I've ever been-you'd laugh at what I'm on. I would've too. Really don't mean to preach but take a second look. With consistency and decent genes it's going to take al least 5 -10 years-pace yourself.....

 

[alteredbeast]

Great post. I'm a big fan of both PB and ALR and I'm interested to see how this turns out.

A couple things in regards to this cycle... if you've read BTPB you know Rea's cycle dosages are based on weight. Most of his cycles look insane when you first look at them but they're set-up for an advanced bodybuilder of 260+ lbs. Rea gives guidelines to tailor each cycle based on level of experience, and I think it would be wise to follow this (I think Rea has a similar but better approach than Borreson) - for example for your weight of 210-215 I think it would put you in the intermediate category. I don't have the book right in front of me but if I'm not mistaken the weekly max AAS dosage he recommends for guys your size is around 1000mg/week. Your first week of this cycle your running around 3000mgs of different compounds! A bit overkill bro... remember this game is long-term. Do you really need the Anadrol? How about the Tren? Food is the ticket man, not higher dosages and more dangerous compounds.

In most of the cycles I've read by these guys they will include a strong anabolic in addition to the heavy anadrogenic compounds. You've got mostly heavy androgenic steroids in your cycle. Have you thought about adding in NPP?

Other than that I like how you've transitioned from long-acting to short-acting esters... (I'd prefer it all short-acting but that's me)

A few questions for you:
what's your BF right now?
What's your plan for cortisol/estrogen control?

 

[Nate Dawg]

Bf is around 9-10 I would guess, 31.5in waist w/ some vascularity in abs and quads, so its fairly low.

For estrogen control I was planning on running aromasin throughout the cycle and using toremifene for pct, I used it for this past cycle and recovery was super fast and a breeze, even after 8 months on. For cortisol control I usually just use some OTC product like Retain by anabolic xtreme, or this time I used Restore by ALRI which helps stimulate hpta, block prolactin/estrogen/cortisol. I havent ever used anything such as cytadren for cortisol.

And on the tren and anadrol, I dont feel they are necessary and actually would rather not run the anadrol due to hairloss, it kills my hair. I should probably drop the tren as others have said earlier. As for the npp, I have ran it in the past, but I just dont like running the risk of deca dick, although with the NPP if problems occured it should be able to be fixed quickly b/c of the short ester. Thats why I had the boldenone base transdermal in there, to use it as my anabolic instead of a nandrolone, and went transdermally b/c it would kick in right away, and EQ may be fairly worthless in a short cycle b/c of such a long half life.

Alteredbeast, are there any specific short cycles you have ran and had good results with?

 

[Liphted]

Hey Liphted, yes I do respond poorly to gear. I get consistent strength gains from it, but I have a horrible time putting on weight..calories calories calories, I know, when on cycle I was eating over 4600 cals/day, and 400g of protein per day was the minimum, carbs were around 500g/day, workout days were closer to 700g lol. The food was there, the gear was there (alot at that), and still I dont respond that great. Training was DC the entire cycle, which is by far my favorite training program, made PR's pretty much every single week for quite some time.

My goals are both strength and size, leaning a little more towards the strength aspect at this point in time.

I know everything seems really random from the way the cycle is set up, I have seen several 4 week cycles that were set up by Borresen, and I was just trying to kind of change things around to make it fit 6 weeks, having the long esters clear by pct etc....I agree with it make sense to just pretty much run everything straight from beginning to end with no "phases" in there, but I am just emulating what I have seen of Borresen's cycles, as well as ALR's.

The reason for the test c/test e blend is I homebrew everything, and I notice if I made something at a higher concentration, combining the two esters made it painless and since prop is going to be in it any reduction in pain is welcomed! I know there is basically no difference between cyp and enan, they are just combined for the aspect of reducing pain, because the injections will be frequent. I have seen the calculations on half lives pertaining to the benefit of frontloading, I agree its a great idea. The winny was thrown in at the end to help reduce SHBG levels.

I just made this cycle from examples I have seen by PB and ALR. To me it makes more sense just to pick a couple compounds and run them straight from beginning to end, but these guys know more than I do and they have cycles set up that way for a reason, guys get good results off them, so I'm just trying to figure out the rhyme and reason on how these are set up and what dosages to use.
Reply With Quote

Well, I've reread your original post instead of skimming it and what you've laid out makes more sense, atleast why your doing it. To be honest I saw your cycle history and thought what the hell is this guy doing and didn't pay much attention to anything else.

Anyways, its seems you've done your homework, so I'll talk at your level.
With respect to the test blend and pain I don't follow. Its easy to keep Test E. in solution at extremely high concentrations, not so much for cyp. Typically I can only have my homebrew of Test E. ~2x's the concentration of my Test Cyp. which leaves me to believe you are just actually introducing more oil into your blend which is causing the reduction in pain. Wouldn't it just be easier to make a high concentration of Test E. and cut it with a SMALL amount of sterile oil? Also, didn't PB think Test Cyp was a shitty form of test? Maybe your into chemistry though and you like making blends; I guess in the end if it works for you it shouldn't matter.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on PB's theories and don't claim to be.
When I first started researching short cycles and decided to make the switch I came across PB and his theories. At first a lot of his babble made sense, but over time certain issues kept creeping into my mind. First and foremost I found his mega-dosing strategy to be incomplete. Not in the sense that taking in huge amounts of AAS is not going to produce results, but more in the sense of how well those amounts will actually be utilized. Specifically, issues revolving around receptor mapping, target cells, up regulation, and most importantly nutrient requirements (I'm not going to elaborate and assume you're following me). To actively take advantage of dosages he outlines you would need to be taking in on the order of 10,000cals/day. You are kidding yourself if you think the 4,600 you were taking in on your 4th cycle was sufficient.

Everything I have read about his ideas (and I'll admit I haven't read a lot) always seems to deal with the drug side and completely neglects the nutritional aspects. Anabolism starts with the groundwork of nutrition which allows the state/environment you have placed your body in to build from. He gives you the schematics of the 2nd through 100th floors, but never tells you how to support this massive structure.

After I did some more searching on him specifically I ran across a lot of things that discredited his credentials and basically him as a person. That pretty much ended my research in his methodologies.

Despite the fact that I think there are some glaring holes in his ideas, his cycles will work simply for the reason its possible to kill a squirrel with a shotgun. Sure, the squirrel is dead, but would a small .22 rifle have worked similarly with a lot less unwanted damage/side effects?

I don't know why my posts always end up so long winded and in a different light, but I'll attempt to get back on track. As far as splitting up your compounds in different days for differing lengths is it really needed? Why wait till the end of the cycle to throw winny in hoping to combat SHBG? Why not start it in the beginning and let it "do its thing" and still see some strength benefits from it, which as you've stated is one of your goals. I know PB talks about competition between compounds, thus the separation, but is it really an issue? And the transdermal eq, I think you'll find a much better replacement with bold. cyp. or NPP. NPP is the base of my short cycles and I have never had better gains since I've decided to do this (I know people, the horror, I don't base with Test ).

In the end experimentation for theories like this is the only defining action in deciding if this route is best for you. There's anecdotal evidence to support that mega-dosing opens up new pathways, but at what cost? You don't seem to have any qualms about high dosages however, so this might not be an issue for you.

Well, I'm exhausted and this ended up being 10x's what I originally intended. Here is what I actually wanted to say about 50 sentences ago. Keep it simple, use short-esters to keep serum levels high, and focus on creating an anabolic environment through nutrition not supplementation.

Just my 15 cc.

 

[Nate Dawg]

Great post liphted, I appreciate the help. I actually have a bottle of bold cyp I sitting around that I brewed up several months ago. That stuff gave me the "flu" when I started it, took about 5 days to get over. I will go ahead and give the NPP a try, if any problems happen with the guy downstairs it will hopefully be quick to fix b/c of the fast clearing time. As of now, I am looking at dropping the orals and tren, orals always strip my hair, as well as the cholesterol issues.


Thanks again for all the help guys, I KNOW some of the stuff I have done was ridiculous and plain stupid, I knew it was when I did it, but I did it anyways.

Liphted, if I may ask, what do some of your typical short cycles look like?

 

[Stroyer]

Article

Not sure if this will be of any use to you or not, maybe you have already seen this, but I have attached an old "Blast Cycle" article by the late Trevor Smith.

 

[CHAPS]

Wow that was some cycle!

Nate: Read BTPB by L. Rea, i think your making your cycle wayyyyyyyy more complicated then it has to be. Too many different compounds, pick 3 and work with those.

 

[aesop]

Honestly short cycles don't make sense, unless you are using moderate doses of test base + an oral like var for 3 weeks on 1 week off, like an athlete would do to get benefits of being on without ever completely shutting down hpta. That said using mega doses for a short period of time is retarded, especially when 6 weeks is supposedly short.

The reason gains stagnate after week 4-6 is because 95+% of the intitial strength is due to neurological adaptions (mostly PNS) and increasing innervation of skeletal muscle. The increased size is due to increased glycogen loading not actual increased #'s of contractile proteins/sarcomeres.

In order to increase the actual number of contractile proteins, which will lead to bigger muscles and more strength potential, you must first increase innervation and muscle growth will follow. So after weeks 4-6 the neurological changes from using gear have already occured but no real muscle gains have been made. Hypertrophy will happen in the weeks following the neurological adaptations. By doing a 6 week high dose cycle you are severely limiting the period of time in which you are actually building muscle.

Like someone said earlier you would be much better suited using a moderate dose of test prop 300-400 mg's week along with primo or eq.
Weeks 1-4 300 mg prop 200 primo
5-8 400 prop 300 primo
9-12 400 prop 400 primo 200 masteron
13-16 400 prop 400 masteron 50 mg var ed

A cycle like this will provide much more solid size and strength gain due to the reasons I mentioned above. You should never front load a cycle but rather pyramid up/and or change compounds.

Front loading gives you results faster but hurts you as the cycle goes on. It increases shbg, and is not sufficient to cause muscle growth, just temporarily increases neurological adaptations, which cease with the mega dosing.

 

[MightyJohn]

WOW

I've gotta tell You Bro's this post was all in all an awesome read...I gained alot of good info & diverse cycling opinions from it...its great to see how much knowledge We have actively posting here

 

[Nate Dawg]

Stroyer, thanks for the article, that was a great read.

Chaps, I got to look back through BTPB, I loned it to a friend a few months ago and am a little rusty at the moment on the exact layout of some of his cycles.

Aesop, thanks for your insight, I dont know if I agree about there being no muscle built during the first 4-6 weeks of a cycle, although I do agree that the strength gains are mostly due to neurological adaptations from the androgens. The short heavy blast cycle is to try and just break through a plateau, then a short pct to try and get natty test back a little bit, suppress cortisol/shbg and then run a moderate dosed cycle to help maintain the rapid gains and add some more.

 

[Liphted]

Liphted, if I may ask, what do some of your typical short cycles look like?

Check your PM's.

 

[alteredbeast]

Alteredbeast, are there any specific short cycles you have ran and had good results with?

Yes, there are several and I know there are many other bro's on this board who've had success with short, consistent cycles. I'm planning another one here shortly after a bit of a lay off.

It sounds like you've got a good plan going now for your cycle.

Have you thought about layering in humalog/growth/thyroid mid way? You could potentially blow up bigtime if you've never used slin before.

When you get your copy of BTPB back give it another read. I've read it several times and always get new info from it.

 

[Nate Dawg]

I'm tossing around the idea of gh/t-3, but I dont know about the slin, thats the only compound that worries me to use, I never have, but I may go ahead and give it a try starting very low.

 

[aesop]

Stroyer, thanks for the article, that was a great read.

Chaps, I got to look back through BTPB, I loned it to a friend a few months ago and am a little rusty at the moment on the exact layout of some of his cycles.

Aesop, thanks for your insight, I dont know if I agree about there being no muscle built during the first 4-6 weeks of a cycle, although I do agree that the strength gains are mostly due to neurological adaptations from the androgens. The short heavy blast cycle is to try and just break through a plateau, then a short pct to try and get natty test back a little bit, suppress cortisol/shbg and then run a moderate dosed cycle to help maintain the rapid gains and add some more.

Its not that you don't make any new sarcomeres in the first 4 weeks it is just that the majority of strength and size is due to the reason I stated. Hypertrophy follows neurological adaptation. The longer the cycle the more "real" the gains are.

Gh and slin would be a great addition and you could get better results with less AAS Slin isn't to bad just get a glucometer and start very low pwo only 2ius and I wouldn't recommend going over 6ius.