Difference in gains between insulin pre/post workout VS Slin with Every single meal

sma · Jun 15, 2014

Chode Logan said:
2000 cals? Are we a bikini competitor?

Lol dude 2000 cals is plenty it's called dieting w/ slin . It will hold mass believe me if you eat whole protein slow digesting carbs like oats that keep you fuller and lots of veg you will be fine ( assuming your maintenance is 2500) if it's 3000 then go to 2500 and so on. My maintenance is 3000 give or take I do fine on that calorie intake for first 3-5 weeks straight then I add in 1 maintenance day with no insulin more fats and sometime protein about the same carbs.

Chode Logan · Jun 15, 2014

sma said:
Lol dude 2000 cals is plenty it's called dieting w/ slin . It will hold mass believe me if you eat whole protein slow digesting carbs like oats that keep you fuller and lots of veg you will be fine ( assuming your maintenance is 2500) if it's 3000 then go to 2500 and so on. My maintenance is 3000 give or take I do fine on that calorie intake for first 3-5 weeks straight then I add in 1 maintenance day with no insulin more fats and sometime protein about the same carbs.

I believe the purpose of the thread and topic was using slin to get the most gains, not using it to maintain size while dieting. I do agree the method you mentioned works great in short blasts, you can basically starve yourself the whole day and use pre workout slin and keep fullness.

sma · Jun 15, 2014

Chode Logan said:
2000 cals? Are we a bikini competitor?

Maybe everyone's so hungry because there tren dose is 100mg ed + try not using tren during a diet and using just some test , deca w/ primo or a touch of npp. 2000 cal you'll be fine assuming you start your diet at 10-12% once you hit singles hunger can get overwhelming ( if using gh w/ the slin protocol then it can be the same / due to igf 1 output)

Chode Logan · Jun 15, 2014

sma said:
Maybe everyone's so hungry because there tren dose is 100mg ed + try not using tren during a diet and using just some test , deca w/ primo or a touch of npp. 2000 cal you'll be fine assuming you start your diet at 10-12% once you hit singles hunger can get overwhelming ( if using gh w/ the slin protocol then it can be the same / due to igf 1 output)

What are you talking about? No one is talking about dieting, they are talking about using insulin to build muscle

sma · Jun 15, 2014

Chode Logan said:
I believe the purpose of the thread and topic was using slin to get the most gains, not using it to maintain size while dieting. I do agree the method you mentioned works great in short blasts, you can basically starve yourself the whole day and use pre workout slin and keep fullness.

Wouldn't loosing the least amount of weight while loosing bf% be gains .

NattyNuts · Jun 15, 2014

marshallmadman said:
And more fat.

+1

TooPowerful4u · Jun 16, 2014

Gunsmith said:
nope
10iu Humulin-R preworkout , 25g carbs from Gatorade with 20g BCAA's , 10g Glutamine and 10g Creatine during workout , 50g protein with 30-40g carbs in post workout shake , 50-60g protein , 30-40g carbs in meal 1.5hr after shake.

I've done slin several runs but never more than one shot a day and never longer than 3-4 weeks.

if all works out this off season I'll run it prewokout (5am) and again at 11am on training days with 5iu HGH each time
non training days carbs will be lower and metformin will be tMen with every other meal (half life will cover all meals)

i like similar protocols (different timing and macro totals and timing as well as combining diff PED's)

but keep in mind slin too close to show precontest IMO hinders muscle hardness.... no science to back it other than theory and logic, but it appears to be the case IME.... could be wrong, but il stick with what iv seen happen and work

Markosterone · Jun 16, 2014

I eat my oatmeal pre workout (30g carbs) drink my bcaa during workout (12g), get home, take my slin (14iu insulin lispro) and drink my protein shake(50g pro, 50g maltodextrin, sometimes less malto, and add a redbull if i get low during next 2h)

Gives great pump and fullness to muscles.

Always measure my blood glucose if i feel low..

Mike Arnold · Jun 17, 2014

The problem with using insulin with every freakin' meal, specially when one's total daily dose is sbstantial, is that it destroys the body's ability to use insulin effieciently.

The every meal method might work great for adding size for a little while, but as time goes on...and it won't take long...your body will begin fighting against you by reducing insulin sensitivity and decreasing the number of Glut 4 transporter sent to the surface of the muscle cell. The end result is that you can no longer efficiently absorb the nutrients you are eating.

In other words, although you may be using a lot of insulin, you won't be able to get anywhere close to maximum benefit from it...not to mention the potential health problems which can arise from such irresponsible use.

The goal should not be to use as much insulin as possible, but to make the insulin you do use work as well as possible. I believe insulin resistance (largely due to irresponsible insulin & GH use, although there are certainly other contributing factors, such as a high carbohydrate intake--especially refined carbs) in combination with Glut 4 issues is a big part of the reason why the appearance of some BB'rs has deteiorated. I don't have any concrete evidence for the following statement--only theory--but I believe the inability to absorb the massive amount of nutrients being consumed, due to the factors stated above, can potentially lead to atrophy of the muscles (it seems to occur more in the limbs for some reason...or it could just be coincidence), an odd, lower quality look to one's overall musculature, and the pregnant look when see on some guys. When cmbined, these "side effects" an lead to a very unappealing look to the physique. Palumbo seemed to have this look, as did Kovacs.

These effects don't seem to take place right away. In fact, many BB'rs who go this route (massive insulin and GH use without any regard for insulin sensitivity/Glut 4 transportation) often make unbelievable gains in muscle tissue over a short period of time, but after several years, they seem to start having problems. The drugs they are using no longer seem to work as well and eventually, even holding onto the muscle they once had becomes dificult. In the end, they end up smaller--often with a disproportionately massive gut--and an odd look to the musculature, to say the least. Ultimatey, their physique are destroyed. You can only fuck with the body's phyiology for so long until it bites back, especially when comes to one's metabolic health.

I normally won't throw out comments like this without any evidence--I will just keep my thoughts to myself until proof becomes available, but I really think there is something to this here. Perhaps if I get the time I will post my thoughts on the matter regarding "how" I think this might be occuring.

NattyNuts · Jun 17, 2014

Mike Arnold said:
The problem with using insulin with every freakin' meal, specially when one's total daily dose is sbstantial, is that it destroys the body's ability to use insulin effieciently.

The every meal method might work great for adding size for a little while, but as time goes on...and it won't take long...your body will begin fighting against you by reducing insulin sensitivity and decreasing the number of Glut 4 transporter sent to the surface of the muscle cell. The end result is that you can no longer efficiently absorb the nutrients you are eating.

In other words, although you may be using a lot of insulin, you won't be able to get anywhere close to maximum benefit from it...not to mention the potential health problems which can arise from such irresponsible use.

The goal should not be to use as much insulin as possible, but to make the insulin you do use work as well as possible. I believe insulin resistance (largely due to irresponsible insulin & GH use, although there are certainly other contributing factors, such as a high carbohydrate intake--especially refined carbs) in combination with Glut 4 issues is a big part of the reason why the appearance of some BB'rs has deteiorated. I don't have any concrete evidence for the following statement--only theory--but I believe the inability to absorb the massive amount of nutrients being consumed, due to the factors stated above, can potentially lead to atrophy of the muscles (it seems to occur more in the limbs for some reason...or it could just be coincidence), an odd, lower quality look to one's overall musculature, and the pregnant look when see on some guys. When cmbined, these "side effects" an lead to a very unappealing look to the physique. Palumbo seemed to have this look, as did Kovacs.

These effects don't seem to take place right away. In fact, many BB'rs who go this route (massive insulin and GH use without any regard for insulin sensitivity/Glut 4 transportation) often make unbelievable gains in muscle tissue over a short period of time, but after several years, they seem to start having problems. The drugs they are using no longer seem to work as well and eventually, even holding onto the muscle they once had becomes dificult. In the end, they end up smaller--often with a disproportionately massive gut--and an odd look to the musculature, to say the least. Ultimatey, their physique are destroyed. You can only fuck with the body's phyiology for so long until it bites back, especially when comes to one's metabolic health.

I normally won't throw out comments like this without any evidence--I will just keep my thoughts to myself until proof becomes available, but I really think there is something to this here. Perhaps if I get the time I will post my thoughts on the matter regarding "how" I think this might be occuring.

WOW, thank u so much. Valuable information

martellrui · Jun 17, 2014

Mike Arnold said:
The problem with using insulin with every freakin' meal, specially when one's total daily dose is sbstantial, is that it destroys the body's ability to use insulin effieciently.

The every meal method might work great for adding size for a little while, but as time goes on...and it won't take long...your body will begin fighting against you by reducing insulin sensitivity and decreasing the number of Glut 4 transporter sent to the surface of the muscle cell. The end result is that you can no longer efficiently absorb the nutrients you are eating.

In other words, although you may be using a lot of insulin, you won't be able to get anywhere close to maximum benefit from it...not to mention the potential health problems which can arise from such irresponsible use.

The goal should not be to use as much insulin as possible, but to make the insulin you do use work as well as possible. I believe insulin resistance (largely due to irresponsible insulin & GH use, although there are certainly other contributing factors, such as a high carbohydrate intake--especially refined carbs) in combination with Glut 4 issues is a big part of the reason why the appearance of some BB'rs has deteiorated. I don't have any concrete evidence for the following statement--only theory--but I believe the inability to absorb the massive amount of nutrients being consumed, due to the factors stated above, can potentially lead to atrophy of the muscles (it seems to occur more in the limbs for some reason...or it could just be coincidence), an odd, lower quality look to one's overall musculature, and the pregnant look when see on some guys. When cmbined, these "side effects" an lead to a very unappealing look to the physique. Palumbo seemed to have this look, as did Kovacs.

These effects don't seem to take place right away. In fact, many BB'rs who go this route (massive insulin and GH use without any regard for insulin sensitivity/Glut 4 transportation) often make unbelievable gains in muscle tissue over a short period of time, but after several years, they seem to start having problems. The drugs they are using no longer seem to work as well and eventually, even holding onto the muscle they once had becomes dificult. In the end, they end up smaller--often with a disproportionately massive gut--and an odd look to the musculature, to say the least. Ultimatey, their physique are destroyed. You can only fuck with the body's phyiology for so long until it bites back, especially when comes to one's metabolic health.

I normally won't throw out comments like this without any evidence--I will just keep my thoughts to myself until proof becomes available, but I really think there is something to this here. Perhaps if I get the time I will post my thoughts on the matter regarding "how" I think this might be occuring.

Very good post thank you very much!
So Mike what can you reccomend as a better protocol?

hilly2008 · Jun 17, 2014

Mike Arnold said:
The problem with using insulin with every freakin' meal, specially when one's total daily dose is sbstantial, is that it destroys the body's ability to use insulin effieciently.

The every meal method might work great for adding size for a little while, but as time goes on...and it won't take long...your body will begin fighting against you by reducing insulin sensitivity and decreasing the number of Glut 4 transporter sent to the surface of the muscle cell. The end result is that you can no longer efficiently absorb the nutrients you are eating.

In other words, although you may be using a lot of insulin, you won't be able to get anywhere close to maximum benefit from it...not to mention the potential health problems which can arise from such irresponsible use.

The goal should not be to use as much insulin as possible, but to make the insulin you do use work as well as possible. I believe insulin resistance (largely due to irresponsible insulin & GH use, although there are certainly other contributing factors, such as a high carbohydrate intake--especially refined carbs) in combination with Glut 4 issues is a big part of the reason why the appearance of some BB'rs has deteiorated. I don't have any concrete evidence for the following statement--only theory--but I believe the inability to absorb the massive amount of nutrients being consumed, due to the factors stated above, can potentially lead to atrophy of the muscles (it seems to occur more in the limbs for some reason...or it could just be coincidence), an odd, lower quality look to one's overall musculature, and the pregnant look when see on some guys. When cmbined, these "side effects" an lead to a very unappealing look to the physique. Palumbo seemed to have this look, as did Kovacs.

These effects don't seem to take place right away. In fact, many BB'rs who go this route (massive insulin and GH use without any regard for insulin sensitivity/Glut 4 transportation) often make unbelievable gains in muscle tissue over a short period of time, but after several years, they seem to start having problems. The drugs they are using no longer seem to work as well and eventually, even holding onto the muscle they once had becomes dificult. In the end, they end up smaller--often with a disproportionately massive gut--and an odd look to the musculature, to say the least. Ultimatey, their physique are destroyed. You can only fuck with the body's phyiology for so long until it bites back, especially when comes to one's metabolic health.

I normally won't throw out comments like this without any evidence--I will just keep my thoughts to myself until proof becomes available, but I really think there is something to this here. Perhaps if I get the time I will post my thoughts on the matter regarding "how" I think this might be occuring.

what about doing this once or twice a year at the end of a gaining period n maybe post contest

surely used sparingly this could be a v useful tool

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Mike Arnold · Jun 17, 2014

hilly2008 said:
what about doing this once or twice a year at the end of a gaining period n maybe post contest

surely used sparingly this could be a v useful tool

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Sure...I am not opposed to it when it is used short term in conjunction with a mass-gaining phase, assuming the body is in the correct state to take full advantage of this type of program. Remember, insulin sensitivity will decrease within a week of use--yes, a week--when administering insulin with every meal. In my opinion, I belive this type of program works well when done for very limited periods of time, such as 2 weeks or less.

Necrias · Jun 17, 2014

I think the only ones that can get away with this on a daily basis are the true ectos so long as their diet is relatively low fat. There is no way an endo like myself could do this unless I cycled the frequency, something like:

2 days/week for 4 weeks
3 days for 4 weeks
4 days for 4 weeks
OFF for 4 weeks, cut carbs and do mini-diet

pieguy · Jun 17, 2014

Would using metformin on non-slin days and using slin 3x a day maybe 3-4 times a week be a good middle ground for maintaining slin sensitivity? I just wonder if heavy metformin use would cause loss of appetite, which sucks.

PatrickMEP · Jun 17, 2014

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sma · Jun 17, 2014

Mike Arnold said:
Sure...I am not opposed to it when it is used short term in conjunction with a mass-gaining phase, assuming the body is in the correct state to take full advantage of this type of program. Remember, insulin sensitivity will decrease within a week of use--yes, a week--when administering insulin with every meal. In my opinion, I belive this type of program works well when done for very limited periods of time, such as 2 weeks or less.

Now because I know your speaking on doses of 10iu at a time and min 20-30iu day(multiple shots of 10iu). Have you ever had someone use 8 Iu split 2iu x 4 over 12hours?

TooPowerful4u · Jun 17, 2014

hilly2008 said:
what about doing this once or twice a year at the end of a gaining period n maybe post contest

surely used sparingly this could be a v useful tool

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Mike Arnold said:
Sure...I am not opposed to it when it is used short term in conjunction with a mass-gaining phase, assuming the body is in the correct state to take full advantage of this type of program. Remember, insulin sensitivity will decrease within a week of use--yes, a week--when administering insulin with every meal. In my opinion, I belive this type of program works well when done for very limited periods of time, such as 2 weeks or less.

Insulin needs to be cycled on and off while optimizing its effectiveness during use and restoring sensitivity off. If you become extremely desensitized you will not grow well if at all. A lot of the bigger guys who didnt know any better, or who were growing so well they didnt want to stop, will just keep increasing the dose... which undoubtedly ruins your look, response and can cause a ton of visceral fat gain from what iv seen.

Nobody should ever start an insulin protocol without priming. With proper priming and use you can start with very low doses and make them effective and slowly increase into a still reasonable range (as needed) before discontinuing use and restoring sensitivity once again. The proper use of metformin helps both on and off along with a nutrition plan that supports this as well as growth. I am a fan of blasting with insulin then solidifying/stabilizing. How this is done varies from individual to individual obviously.

Not a fan of slin with EVERY meal... just makes the effects diminish that much faster and can make you fat. Prefer to optimize its use and apply where most effective and stretch out its usage over a longer period of time.