Difference in gains between insulin pre/post workout VS Slin with Every single meal

[concreteguy]

On another board that i am on there are a lot of guys using log with every meal and lantus in the morning also, they say, just like you, that they grew like crazy. A lthough it seems to work one thing that made me a little sceptical about insulin resistance was that a few of them stated they only need 2-3 grams cho to cover 10 iu of log, this just seemed terribly low to me. i know the 10cho-1iu slin doesnt apply universally but i cnat imagine eating 20 grams carbs with 10iu log

I tried adding the Lantus and it made it to hard to keep hypo symptoms in check for me. I was afraid of just upping the carbs across the board to cover the slim. So I dropped the Lantus. I was happy to have 4000calories hitting home without putting on shit weight.
For me it takes about 7 to 8 carbs per iu but it's ALL about when the carbs and what type of carbs hit relevant to the slin peaks.
BTW: it's not all carbs that cover slin. Proteins can also.

CG

 

[Jeremy24]

I tried adding the Lantus and it made it to hard to keep hypo symptoms in check for me. I was afraid of just upping the carbs across the board to cover the slim. So I dropped the Lantus. I was happy to have 4000calories hitting home without putting on shit weight.
For me it takes about 7 to 8 carbs per iu but it's ALL about when the carbs and what type of carbs hit relevant to the slin peaks.
BTW: it's not all carbs that cover slin. Proteins can also.

CG

Thats about where i am with slin, if i take in a nice dose of protein 45-60 grams then 7 carbs covers 10iu just fine.

 

[hilly2008]

Well.........I'm just going to put this out there and it is what it is. I have read this thread and respect most of the points of view shared. When it comes to building a resistance to slin I don't agree. I personally did 1500mgs metformin a day
10:am 20iu Humalog before cardio for 30 minutes
11:30 20iu Humalog
5m 20iu Humalog train
7:30 20iu Humalog
I had previously done insulin but never in these amounts. I was afraid because of all the hype I have read.
It hit me like a sledge hammer and I NEVER grew that fast in my life. I did this for three months straight with ZERO hgh. It is the single most effective thing I have E V E R done to grow. PERIOD!!!!

I always did a pre/during/post protein, carb routine and never felt any symptoms as long as I was spot on with my timing windows.

I realize Mr Arnold, TP4U that you have training many, many competitors and I respect your wisdom and advice. However I have lived this reality and no way did my growth tale off at the end. At the time I was on about two grams of gear with total intake of just under 4000 calories.
I had absolutely no issues with gaining fat of any kind. However I was a little internally distended. That all went away as I titrated off. Truth be told I didn't really experience a loss like when you put down A-Drol either. I had to stop to get my blood panels in shape for a hernia mesh to be installed. Anyway, I'm back doing 10iu before training and 10iu after and have been for months. The slin has allowed me to be one of the larger guys in my gym proportionately and do this on 500 mgs a week. Noway in hell I could do this without the slin.
I will concede that this could all change tomorrow but for the moment all is good with no issues.

53 years young
CG

did u just time carbs heavily around these periods ot spread out all day

any clen or thyroid meds

what aas? tren I presume

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[Jeremy24]

did u just time carbs heavily around these periods ot spread out all day

any clen or thyroid meds

what aas? tren I presume

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Not to answer for CG but the few i talked to who did a similiar protocol, basically took log 10-15 minutes pre meal ate and them repeated that 5-8 times a day!

 

[hilly2008]

Not to answer for CG but the few i talked to who did a similiar protocol, basically took log 10-15 minutes pre meal ate and them repeated that 5-8 times a day!

yeh im familiar with that just wondered what other drugs he was running that may have assisted in stopping any fat gain etc

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[Mike Arnold]

Well.........I'm just going to put this out there and it is what it is. I have read this thread and respect most of the points of view shared. When it comes to building a resistance to slin I don't agree. I personally did 1500mgs metformin a day
10:am 20iu Humalog before cardio for 30 minutes
11:30 20iu Humalog
5m 20iu Humalog train
7:30 20iu Humalog
I had previously done insulin but never in these amounts. I was afraid because of all the hype I have read.
It hit me like a sledge hammer and I NEVER grew that fast in my life. I did this for three months straight with ZERO hgh. It is the single most effective thing I have E V E R done to grow. PERIOD!!!!

I always did a pre/during/post protein, carb routine and never felt any symptoms as long as I was spot on with my timing windows.

I realize Mr Arnold, TP4U that you have training many, many competitors and I respect your wisdom and advice. However I have lived this reality and no way did my growth tale off at the end. At the time I was on about two grams of gear with total intake of just under 4000 calories.
I had absolutely no issues with gaining fat of any kind. However I was a little internally distended. That all went away as I titrated off. Truth be told I didn't really experience a loss like when you put down A-Drol either. I had to stop to get my blood panels in shape for a hernia mesh to be installed. Anyway, I'm back doing 10iu before training and 10iu after and have been for months. The slin has allowed me to be one of the larger guys in my gym proportionately and do this on 500 mgs a week. Noway in hell I could do this without the slin.
I will concede that this could all change tomorrow but for the moment all is good with no issues.

53 years young
CG

Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear on every point. I did not say growth would stop off after 3 months of using insulin at higher dosages. Many BB'rs have used larger doses and continue to push the dose over time as resistance builds...and they continue growing. My comments regarding a slowing of growth/atrophy were in reference to a possible long-term side effects (which I did not elaborate on)...usually after several years of using high dose slin & GH, but then again, it is only a theory used to explain some of the things we have been seeing over the last decade or so.

Now, you said you did not experience any decrease in sensitivity. To that I say "how do you know this"? Often, guys don't realize that their sensitivity has decreased until they're clinically insulin resistant...and some guys don't even recognize it then believe it or not. Sensitivity can easly decrease without it being very noticable. For example, if someone required 1 gram of carbs pre-slin , but now they only require 9 grams, there is a good chance the person will not notice this, but sensitivity still decreased.

Insulin resistance will set in very quickly when ancillaries aren't used, especialy with the program you were using. Of course, not everyone reacts the same, but using 80 IU of slin daily will certainly result in some degree of resistance even with Met in the picture. Met will certainly help reduce the damage, however. The fact that you didn't use GH would have helped slow insulin resistance, as GH is damaging to insulin sensitity.

As far as not gaining any fat, I believe you. Some mistakenly believe that anytime they use insulin they are automatically going to gain fat. The potential is there, but it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[Mike Arnold]

On another board that i am on there are a lot of guys using log with every meal and lantus in the morning also, they say, just like you, that they grew like crazy. A lthough it seems to work one thing that made me a little sceptical about insulin resistance was that a few of them stated they only need 2-3 grams cho to cover 10 iu of log, this just seemed terribly low to me. i know the 10cho-1iu slin doesnt apply universally but i cnat imagine eating 20 grams carbs with 10iu log

That is VERY low and is a clear indicator of insulin resistance. These BB'rs may grow for now, but they are setting themselves up for metabolic damage and potentially even worse problems down the road.

Also, if they are at the point where they only need 2-3 grams of carbs per IU, their ability to use insulin efficiently is severely impaired. Basically, they have had to continue increasing the dose over time to continue getting good results. If they went back to their initial starting dose, which probably worked well for them at the time, it wouldn't do anything at this point. If their insulin sensitivity was better, they could use a fraction as much insulin as they use now and get equal results.

The problem with these guys is that they don't understand what they're doing to their bodies. All they see is the results. They don't care if they now need to use 150 IU to get the same results they originally got with 40. They do not think about the long-term damage they're doing because they don't understand how these drugs work. They just keep pushing the dose as resistance develops, which will allow them to keep growing to a point...and because they do keep growing, they think they're on the right path. They aren't.

Like I have said so many times before, it isn't how much insulin you take that matters, it is how well your body can use the insulin you do take. 2 grams of carbs per IU? Do you know what that means? It means they need to use 5X as much insulin to transport the same amount of nutrients that someone who needs 10 grams per IU would need. That means their 100 IU is equal to the other person's 20 IU in terms of transportation ability. I wish that was all there was to it, but it gets even worse. When the body is continually inundated with insulin, Glut 4 transporters, which are reponsible for bringing nutrients into the muscle cell, refuse to come to the surface. I believe this is when the real problems begins...and is the cause if much of the health problems potentially experienced.

Do not follow the lead of these people. Instead, maximize insulin sensitivity/Glut 4 transportation and you will be able to get the same results using a fraction as much. Few people actually do this, so we don't have as mnay stories of guys having success with this method, but the science is sound and really, beyond dispute. Never, ever just keep pushing the dose without any concern for your metbolic health. You can find the right balance of results and health mainetance doing things the smart way.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear on every point. I did not say growth would stop off after 3 months of using insulin at higher dosages. Many BB'rs have used larger doses and continue to push the dose over time as resistance builds...and they continue growing. My comments regarding a slowing of growth/atrophy were in reference to a possible long-term side effects (which I did not elaborate on)...usually after several years of using high dose slin & GH, but then again, it is only a theory used to explain some of the things we have been seeing over the last decade or so.

Now, you said you did not experience any decrease in sensitivity. To that I say "how do you know this"? Often, guys don't realize that their sensitivity has decreased until they're clinically insulin resistant...and some guys don't even recognize it then believe it or not. Sensitivity can easly decrease without it being very noticable. For example, if someone required 1 gram of carbs pre-slin , but now they only require 9 grams, there is a good chance the person will not notice this, but sensitivity still decreased.

Insulin resistance will set in very quickly when ancillaries aren't used, especialy with the program you were using. Of course, not everyone reacts the same, but using 80 IU of slin daily will certainly result in some degree of resistance even with Met in the picture. Met will certainly help reduce the damage, however. The fact that you didn't use GH would have helped slow insulin resistance, as GH is damaging to insulin sensitity.

As far as not gaining any fat, I believe you. Some mistakenly believe that anytime they use insulin they are automatically going to gain fat. The potential is there, but it doesn't have to be that way.

I meant to type "11" grams carbs in the bolded statement above...not "1". Sorry for any confusion.

 

[concreteguy]

Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear on every point. I did not say growth would stop off after 3 months of using insulin at higher dosages. Many BB'rs have used larger doses and continue to push the dose over time as resistance builds...and they continue growing. My comments regarding a slowing of growth/atrophy were in reference to a possible long-term side effects (which I did not elaborate on)...usually after several years of using high dose slin & GH, but then again, it is only a theory used to explain some of the things we have been seeing over the last decade or so.

Now, you said you did not experience any decrease in sensitivity. To that I say "how do you know this"? Often, guys don't realize that their sensitivity has decreased until they're clinically insulin resistant...and some guys don't even recognize it then believe it or not. Sensitivity can easly decrease without it being very noticable. For example, if someone required 1 gram of carbs pre-slin , but now they only require 9 grams, there is a good chance the person will not notice this, but sensitivity still decreased.

Insulin resistance will set in very quickly when ancillaries aren't used, especialy with the program you were using. Of course, not everyone reacts the same, but using 80 IU of slin daily will certainly result in some degree of resistance even with Met in the picture. Met will certainly help reduce the damage, however. The fact that you didn't use GH would have helped slow insulin resistance, as GH is damaging to insulin sensitity.

As far as not gaining any fat, I believe you. Some mistakenly believe that anytime they use insulin they are automatically going to gain fat. The potential is there, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Mike, that's why I posted the pic. It cuts through the bullshit quick. The reason I don't think I'm building a resistance is because of how sensitive I am to hypo symptoms If I miss a window or even a variation in my meal plan I will get hammered at times. But maybe I was getting resistant? It was and still is a good ride. (For me) slin is the bomb. If I'm resistant, I'll take it. Lol Hopefully I'll stay resistant like this for ever. (kidding) On the other hand I hope I never get Polumboism. I think I may have seen a little of that in a few of Ronnie's latest pics. Seams like our brightest stars burn out quick and hard at the end. But it's these guys that explore the limits we can go to.
I thought that condition was from over cooking the gear and the body just not responding to it any longer. But what your saying make a lot of sense.


CG

 

[Knight9]

TP4U, Mike or even Knight. Would love to hear your thoughts on why carbs are so important on off time if cals can be met through other macros. Interested as I did this without slin when I grew the most I ever have. I don't see how I wouldn't grow even more with slin preworkout.

One reason is because if someone is on a moderate to high fats diet and already consuming 350-400g protein daily and comes from a 300-500g carb day down to a 0-0 carb OFF DAY....where the hell are the cals going to come from?
You can't take your protein to 800....and you may not want to take your fats to 200.
This goes back to my original point. If you are using insulin to gain...why would you have low or no carbs on off days? It doesn't fit with what you are doing and I believe it will be very minimally successful at improving insulin sensitivity if you're using slin 4 to 6 days a week. Use metformin with moderate carb meals on off days from slin.
And use a host of other insulin sensitizing agents.

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[ironceltic12]

Mike what about berberine hcl instead of metformin?

 

[DEATHADDER]

great post

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I agree and sorry if I was an ass earlier.

One reason is because if someone is on a moderate to high fats diet and already consuming 350-400g protein daily and comes from a 300-500g carb day down to a 0-0 carb OFF DAY....where the hell are the cals going to come from?
You can't take your protein to 800....and you may not want to take your fats to 200.
This goes back to my original point. If you are using insulin to gain...why would you have low or no carbs on off days? It doesn't fit with what you are doing and I believe it will be very minimally successful at improving insulin sensitivity if you're using slin 4 to 6 days a week. Use metformin with moderate carb meals on off days from slin.
And use a host of other insulin sensitizing agents.

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Gotcha and I see what your saying. Maybe I should of used the term "lower" instead of low/no carbs.

What are some good supps to increase insulin sensitivity besides metformin?

 

[Elvia1023]

I agree with what Mike and TP4U have stated. There is no point in a long winded post as most things have been covered. Concreteguy has shown how effective high slin use can be and how using high doses doesn't have to mean massive fat gain like many assume (if you time things correctly). I personally haven't used slin much but have experimented in the past (nothing high).

There are a lot of guys who use slin throughout the day but they won't be so open like concreteguy. Obviously if using that method breaks and steps (diet, supplements, training etc) in restoring sensitivity should be utilized.

I will say one of the top bodybuilders over here uses 8IU with every meal of the day... that is usually 8 meals a day.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

One reason is because if someone is on a moderate to high fats diet and already consuming 350-400g protein daily and comes from a 300-500g carb day down to a 0-0 carb OFF DAY....where the hell are the cals going to come from?
You can't take your protein to 800....and you may not want to take your fats to 200.
This goes back to my original point. If you are using insulin to gain...why would you have low or no carbs on off days? It doesn't fit with what you are doing and I believe it will be very minimally successful at improving insulin sensitivity if you're using slin 4 to 6 days a week. Use metformin with moderate carb meals on off days from slin.
And use a host of other insulin sensitizing agents.

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EXACTLY.
-JS

 

[Knight9]

I agree and sorry if I was an ass earlier.


Gotcha and I see what your saying. Maybe I should of used the term "lower" instead of low/no carbs.

What are some good supps to increase insulin sensitivity besides metformin?

berberine
epa/dha (omega 3 fish oil)
alpha lipoic acid
apple cider vinegar
cinnamon
chromium

more but that's just off the top of my head right now..


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[Knight9]

I agree and sorry if I was an ass earlier.


Gotcha and I see what your saying. Maybe I should of used the term "lower" instead of low/no carbs.

What are some good supps to increase insulin sensitivity besides metformin?

That post I made was supposed to say 0-70 carb day (as an example) not 0-0.

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[Chode Logan]

I have a little side question, so many smart guys in here I have to take advantage...

I am a naturally slightly endo guy (grow pretty well but its a bitch to get near 10%).

Is it pretty much useless attempting to do any cardio during a period when insulin is active, as its a storage hormone? My reason I ask is this...I have learned I just dont tolerate higher fat meals, and am staying at a pretty respectable bodyfat eating 450g carbs a day while in an offseason plan. Part of the reason I feel this is working is because I train high volume and also do 15-20 min cardio post workout about 5 days a week.

I have no desire to do cardio at a separate time right now, so if I was to use pre-workout slin, although I would obviously grow better, would I be missing out on all potential fat burning effects from the 90 mins of training and post workout cardio?

I have heard milos claim adding carnitine can actually lean you out while using insulin, but I dont know if that is enough. Like I said i am not willing to cut carbs out of the rest of the day as that type of diet gives me shit results.

Thanks in advance, I have always been curious and maybe others could benefit from the answer.

 

[Chode Logan]

Fyi I have used pre workout humalog before and know how it works, I have done 4 runs with it and pretty familiar so don't worry about recommending or not, its already in my fridge haha

 

[Knight9]

I have a little side question, so many smart guys in here I have to take advantage...

I am a naturally slightly endo guy (grow pretty well but its a bitch to get near 10%).

Is it pretty much useless attempting to do any cardio during a period when insulin is active, as its a storage hormone? My reason I ask is this...I have learned I just dont tolerate higher fat meals, and am staying at a pretty respectable bodyfat eating 450g carbs a day while in an offseason plan. Part of the reason I feel this is working is because I train high volume and also do 15-20 min cardio post workout about 5 days a week.

I have no desire to do cardio at a separate time right now, so if I was to use pre-workout slin, although I would obviously grow better, would I be missing out on all potential fat burning effects from the 90 mins of training and post workout cardio?

I have heard milos claim adding carnitine can actually lean you out while using insulin, but I dont know if that is enough. Like I said i am not willing to cut carbs out of the rest of the day as that type of diet gives me shit results.

Thanks in advance, I have always been curious and maybe others could benefit from the answer.

A lot of things can happen...I would think doing cardio post workout whether its steady state or HIIT can leave you susceptible to possibly going hypo depending on a host of factors...none of which are ever the same day to day.

Technically, when insulin is present, fat burning is pretty much turned off...so I would assume this is not an optimal situation all the way around.

 

[Chode Logan]

A lot of things can happen...I would think doing cardio post workout whether its steady state or HIIT can leave you susceptible to possibly going hypo depending on a host of factors...none of which are ever the same day to day.

Technically, when insulin is present, fat burning is pretty much turned off...so I would assume this is not an optimal situation all the way around.

Yeah thats basically what I thought I was just curious if there was any possible reasons it could still work.