Difference in gains between insulin pre/post workout VS Slin with Every single meal

[TooPowerful4u]

TP4U, I'd love to hear more about "priming" if you don't mind?

priming basically means sensitizing and preparing so the response is more drastic/effective. the lower your body fat and more sensitive the better you will respond. I also like to deplete a bit (the manner in which u do it matters so you dont lose mass) in order to create a minni version of a post competition rebound (supercompensation). Syncing all PED's and nutrition along with training (high vol or low, exercise selection, etc) matters

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Priming simply means being lean and most importantly, optimizing insulin sensitivity.

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true, but many ways to do this (some much more effective than others) and other factors besides insulin sensitivy should be considered as well (all PED response, response to training, response to nutrition)

 

[hilly2008]

Insulin needs to be cycled on and off while optimizing its effectiveness during use and restoring sensitivity off. If you become extremely desensitized you will not grow well if at all. A lot of the bigger guys who didnt know any better, or who were growing so well they didnt want to stop, will just keep increasing the dose... which undoubtedly ruins your look, response and can cause a ton of visceral fat gain from what iv seen.

Nobody should ever start an insulin protocol without priming. With proper priming and use you can start with very low doses and make them effective and slowly increase into a still reasonable range (as needed) before discontinuing use and restoring sensitivity once again. The proper use of metformin helps both on and off along with a nutrition plan that supports this as well as growth. I am a fan of blasting with insulin then solidifying/stabilizing. How this is done varies from individual to individual obviously.

Not a fan of slin with EVERY meal... just makes the effects diminish that much faster and can make you fat. Prefer to optimize its use and apply where most effective and stretch out its usage over a longer period of time.

agreed but yiu have just agreed with everything that has been said in this thread apart from the ev meal method

do u have any direct info to add such as what has workes best for u or any one you have helped

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[hilly2008]

true, but many ways to do this (some much more effective than others) and other factors besides insulin sensitivy should be considered as well (all PED response, response to training, response to nutrition)

care to give examples or atleast rough ideas of what you mean ?

you seem to make these v gd points yet not give any methods or examples. I appreciate your a coach n are now pushing this hard through yiur posts but examples to explain your ideas n points would be useful/helpful

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[TooPowerful4u]

agreed but yiu have just agreed with everything that has been said in this thread apart from the ev meal method

do u have any direct info to add such as what has workes best for u or any one you have helped

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I guess reason for agreement would be in support of what was stated, and although vague i did elaborate slightly more into each point....fair enough though, il reply more below

care to give examples or atleast rough ideas of what you mean ?

you seem to make these v gd points yet not give any methods or examples. I appreciate your a coach n are now pushing this hard through yiur posts but examples to explain your ideas n points would be useful/helpful

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First and foremost as previously stated sensitivity must be high in order for insulin to be fully effective. GH desensitizes to an extent, which is why using insulin along with it allows you to benefit from the GH without having to sacrifice nutrient transport, glycogen storage, and a few other effects from insulin.

Starting off nutritionally there are things most of us know of that support sensitivity. Some of these things being using cinnamon (chromium), fish oil/EFA and healthy fats in general, fiber, lower GI/GL meals, and reducing shitty types of fats like trans fats etc.... Dietary tactics can further this. Examples being lowering carb intake on off days, increasing EFA (primary Omega-3) at times glucose is not needed (say early in the day if you train at night or vice versa) or priming periods like previously mentioned. I will only advise hammering insulin protocols when a client/friend/myself is far from a show, in which case i do not advise to do this for very long at all (though longer than 2wks suggested) without pulling back and priming.

Training can also increase sensitivity, specifically high volume. The more glucose you are burning the more sensitive you will become (think precontest training with all the drop sets and supersets).

You have heard me mention synergy. An example would be a period where i pull back the diet to lean out (staying lean is essential to sensitivity) while trying to restore sensitivity by increasing EFA intake and formulating a nutritional plan directed at this goal. Well, the carbohydrate intake will be a lot lower with this goal in mind so high volume training will only cause you to get weaker if you do this for too long a period of time (or at least stagnate progress). In this instance you would benefit more from lower volume higher intensity training (less glycogen usage). Towards the END of this period, right before staring insulin back up, i like to kick the volume up and deplete the muscles temporarily. That way when we kick it back on full force you get a supercompensation effect as well (and the insulin is more potent) similar to a mini contest rebound......

 

[TooPowerful4u]

As for preferred protocols...... this will vary depending on the person (genetics, bodyfat current, how far from a show/cut, and a number of other variables i might find relevant like manual labor vs. desk job etc...).

I focus mainly around the most vital times in order to minimize its usage. Meaning....i ONLY like it when it REALLY matters and i dont worry about "nickel and diming" its usage at other points in the day (simply because i feel that the little you will get from it using it around the clock will be lost in potency when it matters most and probably cause you to gain bodyfat on top of that).

Pre and post. The type i use varies based on the person. I PREFER R pre and log post. Yes, il usually have a very specific timing and stack them as well as food and numerous shake protocol (content depends on above factors mentioned). You can use log pre also depending on the person and i prefer this closer to a leaning out period, but you will need a shake a lot sooner in order to prevent hypo and keep glycogen shuttling to keep the muscles full and optimize workout performance. Closer to a cut still il remove the pre.

And il state the obvious that metformin helps greatly whenever using insulin, both during on and off periods.



If you have more in depth questions shoot me an email....


ADD: almost forgot. Insulin lowers SHBG so take that bit of info and think how you can optimize workout performance with that in your system.

Also....certain AAS promote more volumization while others are more strength related, so consider which goal your current phase is aimed (say for example high volume high carb protocol) at and administer accordingly...this is why i say everything you do should sync and match

 

[hilly2008]

As for preferred protocols...... this will vary depending on the person (genetics, bodyfat current, how far from a show/cut, and a number of other variables i might find relevant like manual labor vs. desk job etc...).

I focus mainly around the most vital times in order to minimize its usage. Meaning....i ONLY like it when it REALLY matters and i dont worry about "nickel and diming" its usage at other points in the day (simply because i feel that the little you will get from it using it around the clock will be lost in potency when it matters most and probably cause you to gain bodyfat on top of that).

Pre and post. The type i use varies based on the person. I PREFER R pre and log post. Yes, il usually have a very specific timing and stack them as well as food and numerous shake protocol (content depends on above factors mentioned). You can use log pre also depending on the person and i prefer this closer to a leaning out period, but you will need a shake a lot sooner in order to prevent hypo and keep glycogen shuttling to keep the muscles full and optimize workout performance. Closer to a cut still il remove the pre.

And il state the obvious that metformin helps greatly whenever using insulin, both during on and off periods.



If you have more in depth questions shoot me an email....


ADD: almost forgot. Insulin lowers SHBG so take that bit of info and think how you can optimize workout performance with that in your system.

Also....certain AAS promote more volumization while others are more strength related, so consider which goal your current phase is aimed (say for example high volume high carb protocol) at and administer accordingly...this is why i say everything you do should sync and match

fantastic posts n lots of good info.

I do things v similar. I always train later in the day so meal 1 usually pro/fat sometimes meal 2 also depending on were cals are n were I am in a particular phase.

I like to taper things as u say n will do 3/4 weeks mini diets/primes going 3-5 days low 1 higher hitting metformin n ala with carb meals

then first 4 weeks will be slin pre only on 2 workout days say back n legs
next 4 weeks will be slin pre and post 3-4 days a week.
at this stage ill re asses n if bf is ok ill add in some double training days n use slin around both sessions 3/4 x a week. this seems to keep gains moving. during this last phase ill schedule 2 days were im lower carbs n hit metformin etc to keep things moving. its usually during this last 4 weeks ill bring in tren. ill use oxy for the last 8 weeks for volumisation n cycle from the start will be test n npp or test n eq. I like to limit tren use in the off season

I also periodise training maybe doing just 4/5 days in the first 4 weeks then going 3 on 1 off next 4 then double sessions 3 of those days a week

this allows calorie output to go up as food goes up n seems to keep bf in check

I like gh away from slin personally so shoot am n pre bed then as u say the slin benefits the gh etc etcc
a lil t3/t4 mix n your laughing

again great chatting with u bud. always a pleasure bouncing things around wuth people who actually understand the why not just the how

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[Mike Arnold]

Would using metformin on non-slin days and using slin 3x a day maybe 3-4 times a week be a good middle ground for maintaining slin sensitivity? I just wonder if heavy metformin use would cause loss of appetite, which sucks.

That is 9-12 injections weekly--too much to maintain insulin sensitivity especially when no preventative measures are take to maintain it.

I have noticed that when insulin is used devoid of ancillaries, even when using it as little as 6X weekly, it can begin to decrease insulin sensitivity. I know that doesn't sound like much, but it does happen.

Dosage will play a signficant role in this, as well. Obviously, if someone was injecting only 1 IU at a time (completely worthless), they could inject it 20X a week without any problems, but when using effective doses of 15-40 IU per injection (caution: do not attempt to administer 40 IU. Doses such as this are reserved only for the largest competitors--guys who consume 200-300 grams of carbs during the workout window alone, along with significant qauntities of quickly digesting proteins), 4-5X weekly is about the maximum dosing frequency for maintaining sensitivity when ancillaries are absent. Some guys might call bullshit on that, but it is true. It really doesn't take much for the body to start losing sensitivity. I have seen some guys get away with 6X weekly, but that seems to be pushing it.

Now I am not saying that if you move from 4 to 6 applications that you are going to turn into a diabetic, but sensitivity will begin to decrease...and the more you push the frequency-dose, the worse it gets. This is why some guys can inject 40 IU at a time and barely even need to eat in order to maintain ther blood sugar. I have repeatedly witnessed guys injecting 20-25 IU and not eating anything at all for many hours---and their blood sugar barely budged. Of course, their blood sugar was already substantially elevated to begin with, signifying insulin resistance and a pre-diabetic state.


This is why I often recommend the pre-workout only program --not because its necessarily the best for maximizing growth--but because it can be used long-term without causing any meaningful decrease in sensitivity. It is also the single most effective time to use insulin.

To answer your question more directly, I couldn't say whether administering Metformin on your off-days, when using slin 9-12 x weekly, would be sufficient for maintaining normal insulin sensitivity, as total insulin dose, mefformin dose, and current sensitity would need to be factored into the equation. Even then, each person must be evaluated on case by case basis. Some people have more working against or for them than others, not to mention the issue of personal response. For example, if one person is engaged in high volume training, does 3-4 cardio sesions weekly, and follows a moderate carbohydrate diet, they are going to tolerate such a program far better than someone who trains with low volume, does no cardio, and follows a super-high carbohydrate diet loaded with refined grains. There are just too many variables that can affect the end result, which prevents me from being able to spit out a stock answer that applies to all.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

BOLD

fantastic posts n lots of good info.

I do things v similar. I always train later in the day so meal 1 usually pro/fat sometimes meal 2 also depending on were cals are n were I am in a particular phase.

I like to taper things as u say n will do 3/4 weeks mini diets/primes going 3-5 days low 1 higher hitting metformin n ala with carb meals

then first 4 weeks will be slin pre only on 2 workout days say back n legs
next 4 weeks will be slin pre and post 3-4 days a week.
at this stage ill re asses n if bf is ok ill add in some double training days n use slin around both sessions 3/4 x a week. this seems to keep gains moving. during this last phase ill schedule 2 days were im lower carbs n hit metformin etc to keep things moving. its usually during this last 4 weeks ill bring in tren. ill use oxy for the last 8 weeks for volumisation n cycle from the start will be test n npp or test n eq. I like to limit tren use in the off season

I do not like easing into a slin protocol. All this does is eliminate the drastic stimulus/shock you would get from introducing full force. If you have weaker bodyparts you need to bring up then maybe only doin it those days is smart (IMO its a good tactic for lagging bodyparts). Other than that scenario you will see better effects slamming right into it. Anyone who has competed on multiple occasions has seen this in their on way (easing into the offseason vs. pounding food and swelling up). Sure their bp went up and the water retention isnt the healthiest, but the supercompensation from the massive influx of calories/cabs caused them to have a drastic response (growth). Workout volume and frequency will no doubt assist in sensitivity, but you better have your diet in check for recovery and be sleeping as well as a properly arranged workout split so there isnt too much bodypart overlap (preventing recovery).

I also periodise training maybe doing just 4/5 days in the first 4 weeks then going 3 on 1 off next 4 then double sessions 3 of those days a week

this allows calorie output to go up as food goes up n seems to keep bf in check

Agreed. I will also strategically decondition training and cardio where i see necessary. I nearly ALWAYS do this to start a prep (most sensitive to fat loss off the bat so why not SMASH cardio while you are sensitive, get a huge hit of fat off, then back the cardio intensity down so you dont adapt and ramp back up slowly as needed. I love the head start!

I like gh away from slin personally so shoot am n pre bed then as u say the slin benefits the gh etc etcc
a lil t3/t4 mix n your laughing

Not only does this not need to be done, IMO, it is not optimal. You just need to have your timing, nutrition and dosing set up correctly.

again great chatting with u bud. always a pleasure bouncing things around wuth people who actually understand the why not just the how

my pleasure. i guess in an attempt to not give away EVERYTHING due to my business (as i used to) i was a little TOO vague lol....there is absolutely NOTHING, not the smallest thing, i do or advise that i cannot explain in depth. If you wanna know why 12 reps and not 8 or 15 i can give an explanation lol

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[TooPowerful4u]

comments/questions red BOLD

That is 9-12 injections weekly--too much to maintain insulin sensitivity especially when no preventative measures are take to maintain it.

I have noticed that when insulin is used devoid of ancillaries, even when using it as little as 6X weekly, it can begin to decrease insulin sensitivity. I know that doesn't sound like much, but it does happen.

VERY TRUE

Dosage will play a signficant role in this, as well. Obviously, if someone was injecting only 1 IU at a time (completely worthless), they could inject it 20X a week without any problems, but when using effective doses of 15-40 IU per injection (caution: do not attempt to administer 40 IU. Doses such as this are reserved only for the largest competitors--guys who consume 200-300 grams of carbs during the workout window alone, along with significant qauntities of quickly digesting proteins), 4-5X weekly is about the maximum dosing frequency for maintaining sensitivity when ancillaries are absent. Some guys might call bullshit on that, but it is true. It really doesn't take much for the body to start losing sensitivity. I have seen some guys get away with 6X weekly, but that seems to be pushing it.

Agreed that body will react and adjust to nearly anything we do. This is something people fail to remember and why they stagnate or work backwards.

Question - I feel that upwards of 20iu is completely pointless (if you need THAT much your sensitivity is probably terrible. Their IS a ceiling to what your cells can uptake and the rate at which they do so. 40iu just seems like overkill, but for the sake of argument lets say it does work.... you dont feel doses like this will lead to tremendous buildup of visceral fat and additional fat gain to begin with? There is no possible way a "well fed" (glycogen loaded) bodybuilder (even the largest) is burning through their glycogen stores and an ADDITIONAL 300g carbs in a workout IMO and id venture to say scientifically (mathematically based on physiology) supported. There is not definite way to support this, but i think logic supports strongly. Possibly by "workout window" you mean pre, intra, post and post meal for the 300g total, which il accept, but still would not require 40iu for uptake unless multiple dosing spreading out over that period. Is that what you meant? Please clarify if you dont mind....

Now I am not saying that if you move from 4 to 6 applications that you are going to turn into a diabetic, but sensitivity will begin to decrease...and the more you push the frequency-dose, the worse it gets. This is why some guys can inject 40 IU at a time and barely even need to eat in order to maintain ther blood sugar. I have repeatedly witnessed guys injecting 20-25 IU and not eating anything at all for many hours---and their blood sugar barely budged. Of course, their blood sugar was already substantially elevated to begin with, signifying insulin resistance and a pre-diabetic state.

Which is terrible and why their protocol is way the fuck off....though il agree again that iv SEEN it and whole heartedly disagree with this practice.....personally i think this is one thing that was/is ruining looks

This is why I often recommend the pre-workout only program --not because its necessarily the best for maximizing growth--but because it can be used long-term without causing any meaningful decrease in sensitivity. It is also the single most effective time to use insulin.

At least the majority of the educated members agree here. Pending the bodypart and need for improvement i like a short acting post spike as well and combine the protocol with other PED's for amplification of workout performance and recovery.

To answer your question more directly, I couldn't say whether administering Metformin on your off-days, when using slin 9-12 x weekly, would be sufficient for maintaining normal insulin sensitivity, as total insulin dose, mefformin dose, and current sensitity would need to be factored into the equation. Even then, each person must be evaluated on case by case basis. Some people have more working against or for them than others, not to mention the issue of personal response. For example, if one person is engaged in high volume training, does 3-4 cardio sesions weekly, and follows a moderate carbohydrate diet, they are going to tolerate such a program far better than someone who trains with low volume, does no cardio, and follows a super-high carbohydrate diet loaded with refined grains. There are just too many variables that can affect the end result, which prevents me from being able to spit out a stock answer that applies to all.

Many members want a generalized answer so they can follow it.

always a pleasure interacting with you. many can read, understand and regurgitate information, but few are thinkers and understand how to read variables of both the situation, what we are applying and utilize accordingly.

gotta love a THINKER and TROUBLESHOOTER

 

[DEATHADDER]

Maybe a dumb question and maybe already asked. If insulin resistance happens so quickly can't it be decreased by lowering carbs on off days, drastically? Also dropping carbs the rest of a workout day besides a 3-4hrs Window with slin present?

 

[Knight9]

Maybe a dumb question and maybe already asked. If insulin resistance happens so quickly can't it be decreased by lowering carbs on off days, drastically? Also dropping carbs the rest of a workout day besides a 3-4hrs Window with slin present?

Slightly, but the point of using slin is usually to gain and most diets will have carbs in them to facilitate energy expenture, recovery and growth.
You'd be better off using metformin on your off days I'd imagine.

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[DEATHADDER]

Slightly, but the point of using slin is usually to gain and most diets will have carbs in them to facilitate energy expenture, recovery and growth.

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I am aware of that but glucose isn't necessarily needed when energy expenditure is low. I am not saying overall cals lowered, just carbs. I was thinking of raising fats to account for the cals lost.

 

[hilly2008]

BOLD

so you feel once a show is over drop all thyroid meds n dont use any off season?

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[TooPowerful4u]

so you feel once a show is over drop all thyroid meds n dont use any off season?

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never drastically stop anything that effects your metabolic rate or thyroid function. come off slowly and focus on restoring natural function.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Slightly, but the point of using slin is usually to gain and most diets will have carbs in them to facilitate energy expenture, recovery and growth.
You'd be better off using metformin on your off days I'd imagine.

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Not needed on off days. Carbs support hydration and proper function, but not building/repair

Maybe a dumb question and maybe already asked. If insulin resistance happens so quickly can't it be decreased by lowering carbs on off days, drastically? Also dropping carbs the rest of a workout day besides a 3-4hrs Window with slin present?

I am aware of that but glucose isn't necessarily needed when energy expenditure is low. I am not saying overall cals lowered, just carbs. I was thinking of raising fats to account for the cals lost.

Deathadder is correct. Carbs are not needed in high anounts on off days (not to mention with slin protocol should already have glycogen topped off). Fats will absolutely suffice for fuel/repair (there are EAAs and EAAs no essential carbs) and should replace carb calories on off days during a slin protocol (or even slightly less cals to stay leaner). Metformin is to be used on off days (i usually keep carbs in meal 1) and most certainely in meals on days with slin as well.

 

[Knight9]

You missed my point. Obviously carbs are needed so protein and fats can aid in repair and hormones etc. Read what I said...as carbs play a role in the background that isn't directly about building muscle. If you don't have proper carbs in your given situation, protein is taken away from what it's there to do.

To cut out carbs enough to matter and boost sensitivity on off days...you likely would not be on a diet conducive to using slin for mass in the first place.

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[DEATHADDER]

You missed my point. Obviously carbs are needed so protein and fats can aid in repair and hormones etc. Read what I said...as carbs play a role in the background that isn't directly about building muscle. If you don't have proper carbs in your given situation, protein is taken away from what it's there to do.

To cut out carbs enough to matter and boost sensitivity on off days...you likely would not be on a diet conducive to using slin for mass in the first place.

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Protein taken away? Please explain. Protein wouldn't be converted as glycogen stores would be saturated.

 

[hilly2008]

never drastically stop anything that effects your metabolic rate or thyroid function. come off slowly and focus on restoring natural function.

what would u use to restore natural production. apart ftom good nutrition. any supp additions

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[Knight9]

Protein taken away? Please explain. Protein wouldn't be converted as glycogen stores would be saturated.

Saturated from the day before? There is no guarantee of that...especially depending on your level of activity. If you don't have sufficient carbs for energy, protein is converted to glucose for energy. This is why in a mass gaining phase, zero or super low carbs on off days from slin don't make sense to me. I'd rather use moderate carbs and metformin.

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