Do we know what we're doing when it comes to Liver aides?

Dr.S · Mar 13, 2008

So the theme on this board, if you want liver protection, is "use Synthergine". the theme on most other boards is use Liv.52 or something well know like that.

My question is-- where are the lab results? and just how much to take? Dosages probably won't be the same for someone just wanting general liver health vs. a guy who's about to/or just has used 100 mg Anadrol per day.

Here's an interesting article--- I don't know anything about the author, but I did a google search for Liv.52 dosage

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/anthony31.htm

He recommends 12-18 Liv.52 tabs per day while on a 17aa/methyl cycle. I know there are a few different dose strengths for the product, and I'm not sure which strength he's advocating--- 18 pills/day, though, seems like a ton. Or does it? Like I said, I hardly see much on the topic of dosage

Hopefully we can get some good input--- and please don't just say "all you have to do is take 4ml/day of Synthergine and all your worries will disappear"--unless you can back it up

GoneForever · Mar 13, 2008

I dont like using anything but ala when ON orals, b/c ive heard too much debate about how too many liver aids can interfer with the absorption with the oral. I like to hit the oral for like 4-6weeks, then clean my liver. I take 1gram of milk thistle daily(spread in 3 doses) same thing with ala and I take 2 liv 52tabs 3x daily. My ast/alt/bilirubin all come back very good within about a month of doing this.

bigshadow · Mar 13, 2008

liv.52 & and milk thistle didn't do squat for me... Took 4 liv.52 per day and over 1-1.5 gram milk thistle with cycle support product and 4 weeks after my prohormone cycle my AST was 65 and ALT was 230. This was on 40 mg of pheraplex for 8 weeks.

Dr.S · Mar 13, 2008

bigshadow said:
liv.52 & and milk thistle didn't do squat for me... Took 4 liv.52 per day and over 1-1.5 gram milk thistle with cycle support product and 4 weeks after my prohormone cycle my AST was 65 and ALT was 230. This was on 40 mg of pheraplex for 8 weeks.

P-Plex is some strong shit-- 30mg/day for about 3 weeks had my ALT is the upper 100 range (this is about 4 weeks after the last dose btw)......

So my point here is that maybe 12-18 tabs/day, as the article indicates, isn't a bad idea. The Liv.52 bottle recommends 2-4 tabs/day, but I doubt they are directing their recommendations toward guys using gear

dragonfire101 · Mar 14, 2008

I have always used this. The makers use to be a sponsor. I know a few people on boards were posting their labs results while on this stuff and they said it worked. My liver values were always low while using it. Since you can't see it

2 serving ED

per serving:

500mg Phosphatidyl Choline;
300mg Silymarin
200mg N-Acetyl Cysteine NAC
200mg Green Tea
200mg TrimenthylGlycine TMG
100mg Na-R-ALA

bigshadow · Mar 14, 2008

What we're talking about is drug induced liver disease...

The NUMBER ONE treatment for Drug Induced Liver disease is.....
STOPPING THE DRUG THAT'S CAUSING IT! lol... Its pretty simple really.

I don't know if liver aids are effective or not. Stopping the drug is probably your best bet though. Along with eating a healthy diet, ceasing alcohol, tylenol, aspirin, etc...and not being obese.

Vitamin A can cause elevated liver enzymes when over the recommended daily dose of 10,000 units.

Also, from what I've read you cannot determine the amount or degree of liver damage by looking at the AST or ALT numbers... If its above range then something is irritating it and causing cell damage, but you don't know how much damage.

Some of the things that can cause liver irratation or damage.
1. Acetaminophen (max. dose 4000mg per 24hr peroid
2. Statins
3. Niacin (dose dependant- toxicity at 2grams per day)
4. Some Antibiotics
5. Some Antidepressants
6. Tamoxifin
7. 17 alpha-alkylated steroids
8. Alcohol
9. Vitamin A- but takes years at large doses above 10,000 units/day
10. Some Herbal Teas (Ma Huang, Kava Kava)
11. Possibly Red Rice Yeast- Do not combine Alcohol with Red Rice Yeast. Red Rice yeast may elevate liver enzymes and should not be used if you currently have liver disease.

GoneForever · Mar 14, 2008

^^^ wow on 1gram of flush free niacin and 2400mg red rice my liver values came back fine with improved cholesterol. Maybe the flush free niacin is ok for the liver. Also didnt know this about nolvadex. I thought it was very mild on the liver

bigshadow · Mar 19, 2008

I've been doing a bit of research on this and its really hard to find too much that is conclusive evidence at repairing damaged cells. Vitamin E has some pretty good research behind it as well as Vitamin C.
The components of synthergine look promising as well. In paticular DADA which is a vasodilator. DADA is interesting. A Chinese study showed very good results. Also DADA has been used to increase endurance in race horses and dogs. I believe it was banned with the greyhound dogs. Its speculated that injectible DADA along with ATP is or has been used by track athletes. I wonder if we could talk synthetek into coming out with an injectible DADA and ATP solution?

I don't have my research with me, but one of the chemicals in synthergine also showed excellent at improving bilirubin function.

For alcohol induced liver disease Liv.52 did not look too promising. However it may be beneficial for non alcoholic fatty liver disease as is Milk Thistle.
I think Vitamin E though may often be overlooked as an anti-oxident with repair of liver cells.

I would say if the Niacin and Red Rice Yeast didn't elevate your enzymes then its good to go. I believe yo have to hit 2 grams before the Niacin is considered toxic to the liver. Also Red Rice Yeast needs to be from a reputable supplier bc a few of the Chinese products may have had an actual statin added to it to improve its effectiveness. The product acts like a statin anyway, but research is still unclear whether it will elevate liver enzymes or not...

Big A · Mar 20, 2008

bigshadow said:
I wonder if we could talk synthetek into coming out with an injectible DADA and ATP solution?

That wouldn't be too hard at all as DADA is used in Synthergine and ATP in Syntheselen, so the ingredients are readily at hand. BUT, what would the general benefit be to the customer and also will it warrant commercial commitment?

bigshadow · Mar 20, 2008

Big A said:
That wouldn't be too hard at all as DADA is used in Synthergine and ATP in Syntheselen, so the ingredients are readily at hand. BUT, what would the general benefit be to the customer and also will it warrant commercial commitment?

I was thinking along the lines of a product for endurance and track athletes. Would this be something that the body would metabolize relatively quickly? Theoretically, could it be used in cycling(bicycling) over long distances or would it be burned up too quickly? Maybe it would be more beneficial towards sprinters? What about strongmen? Rugby? Futbol?

Rumor has it that both of these compounds are being used by track athletes already for increased endurance purposes.

big ronster · Mar 20, 2008

Is the synthergine as potent orally honestly? I saw a lot of guys including phil i believe say that they take theirs orally. Usually inject seems to make things work btr overall. thoughts? Also, The use of NAC for liver protection is somehow EXTREMELY downplayed in the BB community. In the medical field it is the number one treatment for acetaminophen induced liver damage, as it raises glutathione levels, as does ALA, which is another good liver antiox. I have read where having a high glutathione level decreased prostaglandin production and the inflammation/growth response from working out. Anyone else remeber this study? it was newer than the tyl/ibuprofen studies shown reduced PGs. Also, altho in a lab they show reduced protein synthesis from ibup etc, does it really matter in the real world? People like you me and especially tom prince were making gains and taking tylenol, advil etc for a lone time. Ronnie coleman himself told me that he always took a celebrex at least once a day. He seemed to do ok.

GoneForever · Mar 20, 2008

^^^ Is that you in the avatar. You look enormous. Post up some pics if you dont mind.

garrithv · Mar 20, 2008

fourthgen said:
^^^ Is that you in the avatar. You look enormous. Post up some pics if you dont mind.

Yeah what he said!

Philthy · Mar 20, 2008

garrithv said:
Yeah what he said!

And some of the girl too

big ronster · Mar 20, 2008

how do you put pics in? Iv got a myspace page. My name on there is: not big ben just ben.

big ronster · Mar 20, 2008

Also there was no answer to whether or not the synthergine was as potent orally as it was im. anyone? beuller?

Big A · Mar 21, 2008

big ronster said:
Also there was no answer to whether or not the synthergine was as potent orally as it was im. anyone? beuller?

Studies showed the various ingredients to be just as potent. Logically though, various things like the food you ate and the stomach environment when you take it would affect absorbtion, so injection guarantees that it gets in you without those issues.
But if you take it on an empty stomach and you don't have any stomach issues, such as too much acidity, etc, then it should be the same as inj.