Don't worry about high hematocrit/RBC/Hemoglobin?

[Kaladryn]

Interesting thread, I have been saying for years maybe donating blood isn't the answer. I think I know why this issue exists with bodybuilders, it's not the AAS. Without specific blood disorders, testosterone won't raise RBCs dangerously high with proper blood volume.

Most bodybuilders train in such a way that maximizes RBC production. Sustained cardiovascular exercise is required for maximum blood volume. Doing essentially interval training (most lifting) and maximizing RBC production without concurrently maximizing blood volume with aerobic training can put someone with high crit even higher.

Donating blood seems to cause a rebound effect after multiple donations that drives crit even higher if you don't keep donating.

I personally max out at about 53 crit without cardio, regardless of dose. 49-51 if I'm doing cardio on a regular basis. If I'm donating it seems to go higher between donations. My platelet count is always low, the higher the crit, the lower my platelets, there is a correlation.

"Really on blood work GFR is eGFR or ESTIMATED GFR. This is calculated by using your creatinine levels along with your age, sex, and race. The main variable being creatinine which is a waste byproduct that WILL increase if you carry more muscle which doesn't always mean your kidneys are not properly filtering creatinine. Big thing for keeping your kidneys healthy is keeping your blood pressure healthy and controlling blood sugar... not becoming diabetic."

Yes that is true it is an estimate. But I have seen a substantial drop in egfr every time nandrolone is introduced, so estimate or not, I feel that drug is not friendly to my kidneys.

Creatinine is slightly increased with muscle bound individuals, yes. But the data from the studies showed the athletes on the higher end of the creatinine levels ranged from 1.25 - 1.35mg/dl.
LabCorp reference range is 0.76 - 1.27 mg/dl. Quest labs is a touch higher with the reference range for creatinine being 0.8 - 1.33mg/dl.

We can't walk around with creatinine levels over 1.4 thinking it's okay because we have muscles. It should be a red flag and something to investigate further.

Taking the supplement creatine will raise creatinine levels as it converts to this. So many pre workout sups have this in them.

There is no reason to trust eGFR, you have to understand how it works, it assumes everyone is making the same amount of creatinine, which isn't the case, lots of things change your creatinine blood levels. You need a 24 hour creatinine clearance test to get a real GFR.

How come you dont read my stuff man? I have said this many many times on this board.... multiple times! here is one time i found easily ..
there are many others http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/783610-post19.html

It puzzles me when i have written so much stuff on this board over the years and alot of it Ive repeated over and over again....and then it comes out as a surprise 7 years later...I dont get it. Are my posts visible? Can any of you see this post? I think the mods made my posts only visible to myself LOL

I admit I got sick of always fighting the same dogma over and over and it seems like every time you illuminate something it goes away after a while, this is why I don't post as much as I used to.

Because although the literature states it (propensity to cause blood clots) I personally feel its overstated (in men at least) .....and clomid, and a slew of other things are also supposed to increase the propensity of blood clots.

Think of this....think of all the competitors right before a show who have loaded up on nolvadex (hell antiestrogens and antiaromatase) before a show. And then they diuretic themselves and cut water the day before a show. Wouldnt you think there would be a blood clot bonanza happening during that moment during all these bodybuilding shows? I would...but it isnt happening...and back before anti aromatase....guys were boatloading nolvadex before shows with water deprivation....noone dropping.....I think its overstated.

Now if you have one of these clotting disorders like factor IV Leiden or the various others.....then i think your playing with fire and thats fire with testosterone/steroids/nolvadex/clomid etc

I think the blood clots in women may be from complete blockage all ER receptors in postmenopausal women taking novladex. It may not be directly related to the nolvadex, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[nothuman]

Interesting thread, I have been saying for years maybe donating blood isn't the answer. I think I know why this issue exists with bodybuilders, it's not the AAS. Without specific blood disorders, testosterone won't raise RBCs dangerously high with proper blood volume.

Most bodybuilders train in such a way that maximizes RBC production. Sustained cardiovascular exercise is required for maximum blood volume. Doing essentially interval training (most lifting) and maximizing RBC production without concurrently maximizing blood volume with aerobic training can put someone with high crit even higher.

Donating blood seems to cause a rebound effect after multiple donations that drives crit even higher if you don't keep donating.

I personally max out at about 53 crit without cardio, regardless of dose. 49-51 if I'm doing cardio on a regular basis. If I'm donating it seems to go higher between donations. My platelet count is always low, the higher the crit, the lower my platelets, there is a correlation.




There is no reason to trust eGFR, you have to understand how it works, it assumes everyone is making the same amount of creatinine, which isn't the case, lots of things change your creatinine blood levels. You need a 24 hour creatinine clearance test to get a real GFR.



I admit I got sick of always fighting the same dogma over and over and it seems like every time you illuminate something it goes away after a while, this is why I don't post as much as I used to.



I think the blood clots in women may be from complete blockage all ER receptors in postmenopausal women taking novladex. It may not be directly related to the nolvadex, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I've noticed the same pattern once I started donating. The HCT keeps going right back up.

My question is what about when it increases due to an AAS blast? Would you still not recommend donating afterwards and hope it goes back down on its own to where it normally is on a TRT dose?

 

[Kaladryn]

I've noticed the same pattern once I started donating. The HCT keeps going right back up.

My question is what about when it increases due to an AAS blast? Would you still not recommend donating afterwards and hope it goes back down on its own to where it normally is on a TRT dose?

AR receptors in the liver are stimulated by androgens and produce EPO. Based on things I've read, it seems likely that the androgen receptors in the liver (as they are in the heart) are saturated at any supraphysiological dose. That is why crit doesn't seem to go up much past a certain level regardless of dose, for me and the few people I've worked with closely on this at least. Others do get dangerously high crit levels, but that sounds like an underlying issue to me...

 

[XstarchildX]

AR receptors in the liver are stimulated by androgens and produce EPO. Based on things I've read, it seems likely that the androgen receptors in the liver (as they are in the heart) are saturated at any supraphysiological dose. That is why crit doesn't seem to go up much past a certain level regardless of dose, for me and the few people I've worked with closely on this at least. Others do get dangerously high crit levels, but that sounds like an underlying issue to me...

So I'm wondering if I should even donate again in two weeks. Last time I donated every 8 weeks, after my 3rd or 4th donation my iron and ferritin were bottomed out. This will be my 3rd donation again after treating iron deficiency. Ugh, it seems like a catch 22.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

AR receptors in the liver are stimulated by androgens and produce EPO. Based on things I've read, it seems likely that the androgen receptors in the liver (as they are in the heart) are saturated at any supraphysiological dose. That is why crit doesn't seem to go up much past a certain level regardless of dose, for me and the few people I've worked with closely on this at least. Others do get dangerously high crit levels, but that sounds like an underlying issue to me...

What's your opinion on the claim that some steroids like Boldenone and Anadrol increase hematocrit much more than others?

 

[Kaladryn]

What's your opinion on the claim that some steroids like Boldenone and Anadrol increase hematocrit much more than others?

BS for most people, even 150mg/week test will increase my crit to about that same as much more than that, it might just take a bit longer, it still tops out at the same number, 52-53 for me.

 

[XstarchildX]

BS for most people, even 150mg/week test will increase my crit to about that same as much more than that, it might just take a bit longer, it still tops out at the same number, 52-53 for me.

This is interesting. Mine increased very high (for me) after some EQ and iron therapy for anemia. I went from anemic to 56.7 crit in 4 months! It's getting back to normal now though. It was just a combo of everything.

 

[Thebigone]

I can’t believe I missed this thread. I just read some of the doctors articles and it seems to be quite valid. Increased platelets are the only risk associated with clotting disorders. I’ve been battling high hemoglobin for years so I just went back and looked at some of my tests.

2/20/18
Rbc 6.37
Hemoglobin 19.3
Hematocrit 55

But platelets are in range and not in the high-end of the range
231 range 140-400

11/27/17
Rbc 6.29
Hemoglobin 18.9
Hematocrit 54.6

But platelets not only in range but more towards the lower end which is even better. 179. Range 140-400

5/8/17
Rbc 6.72
Hemoglobin 20.5
Hematocrit 59.2
Yet again good platelets at 224 range 140-400


Then I went back over a decade in 2007 when I was not on just HRT but doing cycles and it was the same thing still normal platelets. At that time I didn’t know I had severe sleep apnea and what I’ve noticed is my RDW was always elevated back then and after the CPAP it’s always been good. But looking way back from when I was on gear through over a decade up until the past few years of just HRT even though hemoglobin and red blood cells have always been elevated platelets have always been perfect. In fact the only time I had platelet issues was when I was doing too many phlebotomies they dropped as well as my ferritin. I felt worse than that I ever had in my life and firmly believe low ferritin is 10x more dangerous then excessive hemoglobin.

“Erythrocytosis is a relative or absolute increase in the number of circulating RBCs, resulting in a PCV increased above reference ranges. Polycythemia is frequently used synonymously with erythrocytosis; however, polycythemia may imply leukocytosis and thrombocytosis, as well as erythrocytosis.”

So typically one with polycythemia would have increased WBC(leukocytosis) and increased platelets(thrombocytosis). Neither of which I have ever had. I’m curious if others wouldn’t mind going back through all bloodwork checking their platelet counts as well as white blood cell count as this could make a lot of sense and put an ease to all the anxiety and fear of the overhyped hemoglobin myth.

 

[Itachi]

I can’t believe I missed this thread. I just read some of the doctors articles and it seems to be quite valid. Increased platelets are the only risk associated with clotting disorders. I’ve been battling high hemoglobin for years so I just went back and looked at some of my tests.

2/20/18
Rbc 6.37
Hemoglobin 19.3
Hematocrit 55

But platelets are in range and not in the high-end of the range
231 range 140-400

11/27/17
Rbc 6.29
Hemoglobin 18.9
Hematocrit 54.6

But platelets not only in range but more towards the lower end which is even better. 179. Range 140-400

5/8/17
Rbc 6.72
Hemoglobin 20.5
Hematocrit 59.2
Yet again good platelets at 224 range 140-400


Then I went back over a decade in 2007 when I was not on just HRT but doing cycles and it was the same thing still normal platelets. At that time I didn’t know I had severe sleep apnea and what I’ve noticed is my RDW was always elevated back then and after the CPAP it’s always been good. But looking way back from when I was on gear through over a decade up until the past few years of just HRT even though hemoglobin and red blood cells have always been elevated platelets have always been perfect. In fact the only time I had platelet issues was when I was doing too many phlebotomies they dropped as well as my ferritin. I felt worse than that I ever had in my life and firmly believe low ferritin is 10x more dangerous then excessive hemoglobin.

“Erythrocytosis is a relative or absolute increase in the number of circulating RBCs, resulting in a PCV increased above reference ranges. Polycythemia is frequently used synonymously with erythrocytosis; however, polycythemia may imply leukocytosis and thrombocytosis, as well as erythrocytosis.”

So typically one with polycythemia would have increased WBC(leukocytosis) and increased platelets(thrombocytosis). Neither of which I have ever had. I’m curious if others wouldn’t mind going back through all bloodwork checking their platelet counts as well as white blood cell count as this could make a lot of sense and put an ease to all the anxiety and fear of the overhyped hemoglobin myth.

I'm kind of scared. My platelets are in the 400 and I'm so anemic that I can't donate blood.

 

[heavyhitter]

BS for most people, even 150mg/week test will increase my crit to about that same as much more than that, it might just take a bit longer, it still tops out at the same number, 52-53 for me.

I have bloodwork on 1200 mgs of eq at ten weeks in with normal crit and slightly elevated rbc(which did not get any higher than it already was pre eq)

 

[Sunny]

Great info in this thread. Definitely a good read. You guys are a bunch of nerds

 

[gotgame]

No time to read all of this but its not only platelets. Yes that contributes but its also fluid hemodynamics and endothelial damage. Dont kid yourself because you want it to be true, i will argue with any physician whos says otherwise as this is pretty basic stuff and can be dangerous. The distinction of causes is important and any of your personal research should be regarding androgen receptor activation increased activity not polycy vera or anything like that.

 

[dale338]

I can’t believe I missed this thread. I just read some of the doctors articles and it seems to be quite valid. Increased platelets are the only risk associated with clotting disorders. I’ve been battling high hemoglobin for years so I just went back and looked at some of my tests.

2/20/18
Rbc 6.37
Hemoglobin 19.3
Hematocrit 55

But platelets are in range and not in the high-end of the range
231 range 140-400

11/27/17
Rbc 6.29
Hemoglobin 18.9
Hematocrit 54.6

But platelets not only in range but more towards the lower end which is even better. 179. Range 140-400

5/8/17
Rbc 6.72
Hemoglobin 20.5
Hematocrit 59.2
Yet again good platelets at 224 range 140-400


Then I went back over a decade in 2007 when I was not on just HRT but doing cycles and it was the same thing still normal platelets. At that time I didn’t know I had severe sleep apnea and what I’ve noticed is my RDW was always elevated back then and after the CPAP it’s always been good. But looking way back from when I was on gear through over a decade up until the past few years of just HRT even though hemoglobin and red blood cells have always been elevated platelets have always been perfect. In fact the only time I had platelet issues was when I was doing too many phlebotomies they dropped as well as my ferritin. I felt worse than that I ever had in my life and firmly believe low ferritin is 10x more dangerous then excessive hemoglobin.

“Erythrocytosis is a relative or absolute increase in the number of circulating RBCs, resulting in a PCV increased above reference ranges. Polycythemia is frequently used synonymously with erythrocytosis; however, polycythemia may imply leukocytosis and thrombocytosis, as well as erythrocytosis.”

So typically one with polycythemia would have increased WBC(leukocytosis) and increased platelets(thrombocytosis). Neither of which I have ever had. I’m curious if others wouldn’t mind going back through all bloodwork checking their platelet counts as well as white blood cell count as this could make a lot of sense and put an ease to all the anxiety and fear of the overhyped hemoglobin myth.

Nuff said:

New Data On Why Some Men Don?t Need Phlebotomy w/ Dr. John Crisler - TOT Revolution

And this thread:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...hematocrit-not-problem-no-more-donations.html

 

[needthepump]

I'm kind of scared. My platelets are in the 400 and I'm so anemic that I can't donate blood.

Do you take a daily asprin ? I would stay very well hydrated and watch dosages with that platelet level.

 

[needthepump]

Vascular damage as mentioned above is a big risk factor. And what causes this? Stress, anger, garbage food, high dosage/ long term nandrolone use, a genetic bad cholesterol profile (small dense particles of LDL, vast amounts of them).

 

[Itachi]

Do you take a daily asprin ? I would stay very well hydrated and watch dosages with that platelet level.

I do not currently take aspirin. I made a thread asking if I should take aspirin and people said it wouldn't be useful but they did not know my platelet count was in the 400's.

Do you think I should start taking it?

 

[nothuman]

Nuff said:

New Data On Why Some Men Don?t Need Phlebotomy w/ Dr. John Crisler - TOT Revolution

And this thread:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...hematocrit-not-problem-no-more-donations.html

Between the links, this thread, and Kaladryn's posts, I'm taking a break from donating blood for a while. Seems it is no longer doing me any good.

 

[dale338]

Between the links, this thread, and Kaladryn's posts, I'm taking a break from donating blood for a while. Seems it is no longer doing me any good.

I don't know half as much as a lot of you do around here, but I have extensively researched the hematocrit issue, as the first thing noticed on my labs when I went TRT, was it creeping up. Mine went from 46-50 and when I raise me T a bit, it creeps up into the 52-53 range. When it approached these numbers, I back off for a few months and it seems to settle in around 50-ish.

From what I've read is anything under 55, should be ok, IF, you platelets are are not high. Mine run 160-180 on each lab report and have always been on the lower end, so I do not feel hematocrit is as big a risk for me over 50, if I keep it below 55.

I listened to that entire broadcast and it makes sense. We just do not see guys clotting up from higher crit only from TRT.

 

[j2048b]

AR receptors in the liver are stimulated by androgens and produce EPO. Based on things I've read, it seems likely that the androgen receptors in the liver (as they are in the heart) are saturated at any supraphysiological dose. That is why crit doesn't seem to go up much past a certain level regardless of dose, for me and the few people I've worked with closely on this at least. Others do get dangerously high crit levels, but that sounds like an underlying issue to me...

I wonder if having found cysts on ones liver, if they may impact the crit and cause it to go higher even at 150-200 per week trt, my doc has put me on phlems weekly or bi weekly

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Thebigone]

No time to read all of this but its not only platelets. Yes that contributes but its also fluid hemodynamics and endothelial damage. Dont kid yourself because you want it to be true, i will argue with any physician whos says otherwise as this is pretty basic stuff and can be dangerous. The distinction of causes is important and any of your personal research should be regarding androgen receptor activation increased activity not polycy vera or anything like that.

Would specific blood work/testing be able to show these results?
https://www.summitmedicalgroup.com/library/adult_health/car_hemodynamic_monitoring/