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Effective progressive overload methods for advanced

MasteroniPepperoni

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to be honest i never counted the weekly training volume i am an old school guy and i never paid much attention to such details - less thinking less stress = better gains lol

Haha, at the end of the day it's just effort that counts
 

xpoc

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With DC Rest pause sets, each segment (Set or mini-set) is taken to failure with a load such that your rep total falls within the range you've set out for yourself (e.g., 20-30 reps total for an DB pressing movement). You'd do the three sets to failure, and if reps total more than 30, the load goes up the next workout you're using that exercise: You don't do another set if you fall short of 30 reps, although that's a strategy that can be used for a cluster set, just not with the standard DC RP set. (John M. uses that strategy in his programs, though.) If you get to 30 reps total in haven't hit a failure point, then the last set is taken to failure (for the stimulus as well as to gauge the appropriate load for the next go 'round).

As far as rep ranges for DB's, going with a HIGHER number is gong to make sense (and likely never getting down to a total much below 15 reps), because the energy cost and danger (literally) in trying to hoist the DB's up for the 2nd a/o third part of the RP set is pretty high. (You can turn what would have been maybe 3 reps into a single plus a failed rep b/c it's such a PITA to get the DB's into place.) Someone who can press the 150's for 8 reps could easily put themselves in a precarious position trying to hoist them up for the 3rd segment of a DC RP set when already fatigued. When training alone, it's "dangerous" enough b/c that last set would be only a double, on top of a somewhat awkward deadlift (straddling a bench, for instance) to get the DB's into position.

You can remedy the above (although there's really no need to go so heavy with DB - progression is the name of the game here, and doing so in higher as well as lower rep ranges which could be done with those exercises that better lend themselves to this) with training partners to hand off the DB's, a DB stand or, my favorite, using DB Powerhooks (if you can find them) and/or connecting daisy chains (nylon climber's ropes) around the DB's so they're hanging at the bottom of the Range of motion for the exercise.

-S
For these exact reasons I always found it much more productive to use Hammer Strength machines, smith machine or selector machines for DC rest pause sets. There are a few exceptions such as curls where DB or BB work fine simply because they are simple to get into position for that particular exercise. But for any kind of chest or shoulder press, getting those suckers up and into position while you are so fatigued is tougher than actually performing the lift.
 

xpoc

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I do train high volume... I have always been more Heavy Duty style guy, then I did 2 years of Meadows style training (high frequency, high intensity not very high volume just feeders sets) and now I've been 1 year training Oxygen style since I've some friends from Kuwait and Dubai training this way.

I only recommend this for advanced lifters that shouldn't worry in moving more weight (there is a point moving high poundages is an injury for sure) and they need just quality and growing by metabolic stress, nutrients and AAS.

I usually do like 40 sets for big muscle groups, with this system you go to failure by fatigue (lactid acid) so in the end you get some mechanical tension too, for example where I could do incline bench press 180kg for 6 reps in this training system I do 120kg for 10-12 reps, but you have more total volume, less central nervous system fatigue, recovery is simply GREAT, and pumps are unreal...

I've growth the most doing high volume and got no injuries in a year... you gotta need to eat a lot, I just competed with 600g net carbs in precontest, the lowest I went was 350-400g net carbs.

I also think this style of training gives you a different muscle look, more round, something you can see in Oxygen athletes. I'm not saying this is the best way to train, but it has worked on myself and I'll keep doing it this way.

It's curious some guys that come from training low volume high intensity and try the system cannot finish it, after all when you are in the 4th exercise and you have already worked no less than 8-15 reps with moderate weights (not so moderate if you are advanced, in the end they are good weights) and short rest periods between sets pump is so unreal u can't continue and you fail next set really fast...

Excuse my english!!
I have google searched this "method" and cannot find any sample workouts. Based on what I have read (and your post here), it is a shit ton of volume per muscle group. Loads and/or progressive overload is not the focus, instead it is metabolic stress (chasing the pump). But what is the frequency? Is it a bro type split of 1 body part per day? I am guessing the workouts take 90+ minutes???? If you can link up something with more details I would appreciate it. I am always looking to expand my knowledge base.
 

Dugbet

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For these exact reasons I always found it much more productive to use Hammer Strength machines, smith machine or selector machines for DC rest pause sets. There are a few exceptions such as curls where DB or BB work fine simply because they are simple to get into position for that particular exercise. But for any kind of chest or shoulder press, getting those suckers up and into position while you are so fatigued is tougher than actually performing the lift.

And for these same reasons, it always seemed to me that the DC or the HD were not the most suitable systems for those of us who do not train in a gym with tons of machines, because we are limited by bars and dumbbells.
 

juggy38

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Scott touched on this about RP exercises.

Dumbbells and most BBs are hard and not worth it to RP.

Try to do a DC RP with incline DB press. Half the work is cleaning, stabilizing, and the first press of each mini set. I feel a better way……

Start with a machine, OR a movement conducive to Rping.

Chest press or smith DC set…log book this bitch. 2nd movement….2 straight working sets DB press as a top set 8-10 reps, 90-120 sec rest….backoff set 12-15 range. Go to isolation (peck deck) and do a Scott Stevenson 21s, 5s out of the hole…or just one god damn hell set to 20-25 reps. Chest is done with 1 RP, 2 straight sets, and 1 widowmaker. (Obviously the last “feeder” or warmup set prior to working sets will be working volume probably…..but to keep in line with counting sets like our BB dads do.

Dante, Scott, JM, Jordan peters…..hit those set recommendations counting the same way.
 

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I have google searched this "method" and cannot find any sample workouts. Based on what I have read (and your post here), it is a shit ton of volume per muscle group. Loads and/or progressive overload is not the focus, instead it is metabolic stress (chasing the pump). But what is the frequency? Is it a bro type split of 1 body part per day? I am guessing the workouts take 90+ minutes???? If you can link up something with more details I would appreciate it. I am always looking to expand my knowledge base.
usually, those workouts do not take 90++mins since you rest much less than you would do doing high intensity training.
Instead of resting 4-5mins between your sets of bench or whatever you do 60-75secs.
you can squeeze 40-50 sets (usually, you dont do more than that per workout/per day) and be finished in 60-70mins
the guys usually do a mix between higher and lower frequency. strong bodyparts once a week 30-45 sets, weak bodyparts 25-35 sets twice a weak to bring them up. These weak bodyparts are often coupled with higher carb feedings/ different HGH/Insulin protocols.

in the end, it is nothing much different than Milos and some others do, just that they dont use giga sets to increase the volume but use more traidional sets with lower rest periods (maybe sometimes a drop or a super-set)
 

luki7788

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usually, those workouts do not take 90++mins since you rest much less than you would do doing high intensity training.
Instead of resting 4-5mins between your sets of bench or whatever you do 60-75secs.
you can squeeze 40-50 sets (usually, you dont do more than that per workout/per day) and be finished in 60-70mins
the guys usually do a mix between higher and lower frequency. strong bodyparts once a week 30-45 sets, weak bodyparts 25-35 sets twice a weak to bring them up. These weak bodyparts are often coupled with higher carb feedings/ different HGH/Insulin protocols.

in the end, it is nothing much different than Milos and some others do, just that they dont use giga sets to increase the volume but use more traidional sets with lower rest periods (maybe sometimes a drop or a super-set)
perfectly put - this is the school of milos. I think that the most optimal would be a combination of high intensity and high volume, for example first 1-2 exercises, we typically do dc / top and back off set and the rest of the training is typical for pump and metabolic stress, i.e. short drop sets breaks and a lot of sets

Sst patrick tour it is like a combination of these styles
 

FranJ

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I have google searched this "method" and cannot find any sample workouts. Based on what I have read (and your post here), it is a shit ton of volume per muscle group. Loads and/or progressive overload is not the focus, instead it is metabolic stress (chasing the pump). But what is the frequency? Is it a bro type split of 1 body part per day? I am guessing the workouts take 90+ minutes???? If you can link up something with more details I would appreciate it. I am always looking to expand my knowledge base.
You won't find any example of this style of training wrote in internet... I do know it because my friends living there show me preps of Amad Ashkar, etc... take a look at Brandon Curry vids and Ashkanani, both train this way.

Depending on the muscle group it can take up to 90min or even 120min (legs for example), they also split training sometimes (AM / PM workouts, usually smaller muscle groups in the evening), in my case I can't handle twice a day workouts so I prefer to do just one.

In it's base is a low frequency, one muscle group per day training system, but when you nail intensity and you adapt this for you, it's fine to increase frequency in some muscle groups, for example some weeks I train 7 days a week and I repeat back or chest.

As someone said, it's very important to take high testosterone + HGH + low dose ultrarapid insulin, sometimes they add increlex around training.

It's not about training with low weights, in the end when you adapt you will be doing a lot of sets with weights that could cause trouble to many doing only 8-10 reps... for example I can do 4 sets with 450kg in leg press for 20 reps, but I've been already training this way for a year.

Give it a try!
 

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perfectly put - this is the school of milos. I think that the most optimal would be a combination of high intensity and high volume, for example first 1-2 exercises, we typically do dc / top and back off set and the rest of the training is typical for pump and metabolic stress, i.e. short drop sets breaks and a lot of sets

Sst patrick tour it is like a combination of these styles

true, i think fortitude training is similar just that the volume and intensity days are split (pump rounds, muscle rounds, ...)

SST is immensly taxing, i cant believe anyone can train more than 3-4 days a week doing that.
ive often tried his "extended DC set". Set 1 (8-12 reps) --> rest pause set 1 --> rest pause set 2 --> rest pause set 3 -->20% load drop and the 5s negative phase set --> 20% load drop and the 5s positive phase set --> at the end optional static hold.
this set, no matter if it is done in a chest press machine or wtf is so taxing .. unbelievable
 

FranJ

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perfectly put - this is the school of milos. I think that the most optimal would be a combination of high intensity and high volume, for example first 1-2 exercises, we typically do dc / top and back off set and the rest of the training is typical for pump and metabolic stress, i.e. short drop sets breaks and a lot of sets

Sst patrick tour it is like a combination of these styles
Yes, but the problem of Milos training is that you can't get enough mechanical tension, only in the first 1-2 exercises and those are very CNS demanding, in the giant sets the weight you move ends to be really LOW (the more muscle u have the harder is to do giant sets, loads of blood), I don't recover well from this style of training even eating a lot... I prefer lineal sets and add drop sets, when we feel tired we eliminate drop sets and we just do back off sets... take a look to Ashkanani vids.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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You won't find any example of this style of training wrote in internet... I do know it because my friends living there show me preps of Amad Ashkar, etc... take a look at Brandon Curry vids and Ashkanani, both train this way.

Depending on the muscle group it can take up to 90min or even 120min (legs for example), they also split training sometimes (AM / PM workouts, usually smaller muscle groups in the evening), in my case I can't handle twice a day workouts so I prefer to do just one.

In it's base is a low frequency, one muscle group per day training system, but when you nail intensity and you adapt this for you, it's fine to increase frequency in some muscle groups, for example some weeks I train 7 days a week and I repeat back or chest.

As someone said, it's very important to take high testosterone + HGH + low dose ultrarapid insulin, sometimes they add increlex around training.

It's not about training with low weights, in the end when you adapt you will be doing a lot of sets with weights that could cause trouble to many doing only 8-10 reps... for example I can do 4 sets with 450kg in leg press for 20 reps, but I've been already training this way for a year.

Give it a try!
Can you write out a sample day for instance for legs?
 

USMuscle9403

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I believe that I have really gone a long way with my potential and it is hard to further progress the load. It is certainly possible, but it becomes simply dangerous at some point when you do the weights that I managed to reach during training
A few videos to understand what it is about and that at such a moment it is difficult to further develop by increasing the load

Though I won't say I don't feel like doing these lifts bigger lol

JFC bro, fuckin strong! your average idiot sees those numbers and think it's pounds lol
 

luki7788

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And by the way - someone has purchased access to the hypertrophy couch application? I wonder if there is enough information out there to spend the $ 150
 

heavyhitter

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perfectly put - this is the school of milos. I think that the most optimal would be a combination of high intensity and high volume, for example first 1-2 exercises, we typically do dc / top and back off set and the rest of the training is typical for pump and metabolic stress, i.e. short drop sets breaks and a lot of sets

Sst patrick tour it is like a combination of these styles
That’s pretty much how I train these days. I love dc, so I’ll start with 1-2 exercises rest pause and then depending on the bodypart maybe 2-3 more exercises pyramiding up in weight for 3 sets
 

xpoc

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You won't find any example of this style of training wrote in internet... I do know it because my friends living there show me preps of Amad Ashkar, etc... take a look at Brandon Curry vids and Ashkanani, both train this way.

Depending on the muscle group it can take up to 90min or even 120min (legs for example), they also split training sometimes (AM / PM workouts, usually smaller muscle groups in the evening), in my case I can't handle twice a day workouts so I prefer to do just one.

In it's base is a low frequency, one muscle group per day training system, but when you nail intensity and you adapt this for you, it's fine to increase frequency in some muscle groups, for example some weeks I train 7 days a week and I repeat back or chest.

As someone said, it's very important to take high testosterone + HGH + low dose ultrarapid insulin, sometimes they add increlex around training.

It's not about training with low weights, in the end when you adapt you will be doing a lot of sets with weights that could cause trouble to many doing only 8-10 reps... for example I can do 4 sets with 450kg in leg press for 20 reps, but I've been already training this way for a year.

Give it a try!
I am curious to hear the logic behind the methodology. I think DC, Fortitude, Max OT, Jordan Peters, Big Beyond Belief and many of the Meadows programs are based on some type of scientific belief or methodology. For Oxygen style, the closest example I can find is Surge Nubret's PUMP TRAINING. Just looks like a boat load of volume, reps, sets, etc. with not a lot of emphasis on loads. But, I don't see a progression or any actual structure. Obviously, it works...VERY WELL...for many champions. Just would like to know more. I will attach a link to Pump Training and you let me know if they are similar: https://www.t-nation.com/training/serge-nubret-pump-training/
 

FranJ

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I am curious to hear the logic behind the methodology. I think DC, Fortitude, Max OT, Jordan Peters, Big Beyond Belief and many of the Meadows programs are based on some type of scientific belief or methodology. For Oxygen style, the closest example I can find is Surge Nubret's PUMP TRAINING. Just looks like a boat load of volume, reps, sets, etc. with not a lot of emphasis on loads. But, I don't see a progression or any actual structure. Obviously, it works...VERY WELL...for many champions. Just would like to know more. I will attach a link to Pump Training and you let me know if they are similar: https://www.t-nation.com/training/serge-nubret-pump-training/
Nope, it's not the same. Shawn Rhoden prepped the Oxgen way with Psychofitness in 2018... a lot of isolation and angulation movements. It's not about 6 sets per exercise, maybe only 3-4 but a lot of exercises and different movements to stimulate every part of that muscle.

Example for chest:

Some weeks you do drop sets in atleast 4 exercises
Other weeks only lineal sets + some forced reps to get a few extra reps
Quick reps, constant tension, never straighen joints... but is not pumping with low weights as many of u think... doing 3-4 plates per side in almost all exercises is really hard...

Hammer strenght inclined chest press 15-12-12-10
Smith machine incline chest press 15-12-10-10
Flat hammer bench 15-12-12-10
Machine flyes 15-15-12-12
Machine chest press (seated) narrow grip 15-12-12-12
Dips machine 15-15-15-12
Cable crossover (2 positions)12 + 12
 

xpoc

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Some weeks you do drop sets in atleast 4 exercises
Other weeks only lineal sets + some forced reps to get a few extra reps
Quick reps, constant tension, never straighen joints... but is not pumping with low weights as many of u think... doing 3-4 plates per side in almost all exercises is really hard...

Hammer strenght inclined chest press 15-12-12-10
Smith machine incline chest press 15-12-10-10
Flat hammer bench 15-12-12-10
Machine flyes 15-15-12-12
Machine chest press (seated) narrow grip 15-12-12-12
Dips machine 15-15-15-12
Cable crossover (2 positions)12 + 12
I guess that is what I can't wrap my head around. I don't see how a guy can push such a heavy load to failure for 15 reps multiple times. Only to go to the next exercise and do the same thing...again and again. And, apparently with little rest in between sets? Wow...well if you COULD do it I can't imagine you not growing. Lets play it out for a strong guy. Incline chest 4 plates per side 15-12-12-10. Short rest. Smith Incline 315 x 15-12-10-10. And so on. That is super human strength. That is why I assumed you would HAVE to use a far lower load. Sure you might get Incline Chest with 4 plates for 15. Then maybe 10. Then perhaps 8. Then 7. But by the time you get to the Smith I would think most strong guys would struggle to use 225. So for us mortals its more like 135. Anyway, thanks for your input on this. I just think that unless you are using really light loads (albeit the most you can handle at that particular time), it can only be achieved by elite athletes. Watch this vid of this guy doing ONE set. I cannot imagine him doing 2 sets, much less 30-40 sets with this level of intensity. So I would imagine he would have to cut the intensity in half to obtain that kind of volume. But whatever they are doing is clearly working. Those dudes are freaking huge at Oxygen.
 

heavyhitter

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I guess that is what I can't wrap my head around. I don't see how a guy can push such a heavy load to failure for 15 reps multiple times. Only to go to the next exercise and do the same thing...again and again. And, apparently with little rest in between sets? Wow...well if you COULD do it I can't imagine you not growing. Lets play it out for a strong guy. Incline chest 4 plates per side 15-12-12-10. Short rest. Smith Incline 315 x 15-12-10-10. And so on. That is super human strength. That is why I assumed you would HAVE to use a far lower load. Sure you might get Incline Chest with 4 plates for 15. Then maybe 10. Then perhaps 8. Then 7. But by the time you get to the Smith I would think most strong guys would struggle to use 225. So for us mortals its more like 135. Anyway, thanks for your input on this. I just think that unless you are using really light loads (albeit the most you can handle at that particular time), it can only be achieved by elite athletes. Watch this vid of this guy doing ONE set. I cannot imagine him doing 2 sets, much less 30-40 sets with this level of intensity. So I would imagine he would have to cut the intensity in half to obtain that kind of volume. But whatever they are doing is clearly working. Those dudes are freaking huge at Oxygen.
That’s Ben Bruno. He used to post a set like this every single week in the Intense set of the week at intensemuscle. The guy is a great trainer and an animal in the gym
 

Elvia1023

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I have tried everything over the years. I am always detailed in my approach but I love simplicity in training. Sure you have to keep an eye on volume in order to recover effectively so I always keep an eye on working sets but in parts of the year anything goes and I do high volume and push my body to it's limits. I do love the typical loaded and back off set approach for most major lifts. That is usually in the 8-10 then 12-15 rep ranges but legs may be a little higher at times.

When you're as strong and experienced as Luki you can't always just go heavier so you have to think overload using a variety of other techniques (volume, rep ranges, rom, tut, rest periods etc). There is no real reason for this post because as you guys know we could talk about training for hours and there are so many possibilities but I will mention something because it's fresh in my mind as I just changed things.

I generally keep to the same split but I rotate things through the year due to various factors. An example recently I have been on DNP and my physical/mental energy in the gym was massively impacted so I got to the gym and figured I want to lower exercises (I often do many more) and keep things simple and just be able to focus on my working sets and stay put but at the same time I don't just want to lower volume/working sets but I also don't want to just do multiple similar working sets. Although I do love the traditional rest paused method of 3 sets using the same weight and resting a fixed time and going for a total of approx 25 reps total before moving up in weight next workout. However now I wanted to take some rest between sets but also work in different rep ranges so my last PUSH workout looked like...

Warm Up.
Standing DB Lateral Raises... 3 working sets (low, moderate and high reps).
Seated Barbell Shoulder Press... 3 working sets (low, moderate and high reps).
Pec Deck... 3 working sets (low, moderate and high reps).
Machine Press... 3 working sets (low, moderate and high reps).
Superset of Overhead Cable Extensions and Machine Dips... 3 working sets (low, moderate and high reps).

Now for some movements (especially machines) they are too light to do a low rep set so in that event I really slow down the reps (5 sec negatives for example) and may even do some paused reps and I even decreased the rest period between sets just so I could truly fail in the planned rep ranges. Nothing needs to be exact as long as I truly fail but I aimed to fail roughly in the 8-10, 12-15 and 20+ rep ranges. Now you could just stick to free weight (plate loaded) so this won't be an issue and you can go as heavy as possible for everything (an example for tri-ceps doing ez bar skullcrushers and weighted dips).
 

massnup

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I think it could be an interesting topic to discuss and learn from other people.
What progressive overload methods do you use? For years I myself approached it in such a way that my first exercise was done according to some powerfifting schedule and then I went to purely bodybuilding work in the later part of the training. After such 8-12 weeks, thanks to the software, I gained maximum strength and often new PR, which I could use later in the mass building stage and work with greater loads in the "top and back off set" system. But now, years later, it doesn't work that well anymore and, in fact, for 1.5 years I haven't been able to use up to 90% of my old strength. I thought about high volume training, something like training in the oxygen gym, and I wonder how to progress here. I think that the "rep goal" system would suit the best - someone trains with this system or maybe has other ideas for effective progression.
As DC says is when your strength gains stop is when your muscle gains stop 🤷🏿‍♂️
 

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