Hernon Old Training Method Revisited: 2022

[LATS]

Here he is talking about rep cadence and going to failure (getting pinned at the bottom in squats for exampe)

The 3/4 rep thing started back on the 90s with Mike zumpano.. he was the owner of champion nutrition.. he was traini g guys to train just the middle range of a rep.. he felt that range could be overloaded and more mechanical tension could be placed on the muscle.. many followed suit at golds Venice with this.. Tom prince.. Curtis leffler.. hernon..and many others. No stretch.. no contraction.. zumpano thought while utilizing this method that reps shoukd be higher for the most part and preached nothing less than 12 to 15 reps.. many times much higher..
Now I'm not saying he invented it.. he just gave it " reason" and explained why it was better in his opinion..

 

[Analog2]

Awesome posts here, it is interesting to compare and contrast methods of the old school guys. I got into these Gregg Valentino videos and i didn't know he trained at the old golds Venice with all the guys. So he shared some stories and methods of the time.

He also believed in 2-3x per body part training a week; higher reps counts like 10 plus; but much more volume (6 plus sets/exercise); training to temporary failure; not married to the big 3 (DL, Squat, Bench).

He is a character, but funny as all hell.

 

[comedycentral]

We need to make a difference about hitting failure.. if you hit failure due to mechanical tension etc.. great.. but when you start reducing rest periods to 20 seconds ( muscle rounds or cluster sets excluded) you are mainly accumulating fatigue products that hinder contraction.. so you can hit failure all you want but the load is inadequate..
Muscle rounds short rest period is different.. the short period let's you take a weight you would normally hit 15 reps with but allows you to hit 24 reps in a shortened period.. and still allows for adequate load..
Now we know load for hypertrophy is very lenient.. studies show that 60 percent 1rpm if taken to failure will lead to similar results as 90 percent if using protein synthesis as the barometer.. but heavier load does also contribute in other ways.. but in order to hit failure due to mechanical tension etc. You need adequate rest.. 3 to 5 minutes for single sets..

Good post. It’s my understanding that cluster and Myo rep type sets work because your still technically tapping in to the growth reps on your 2/3/4th etc cluster. Isn’t there a strong argument that you almost need to get the early reps out the way to get to the growth fail reps. Always like when you contribute. I assume your lats68 on insta. im garagegymer you liked my nytram shoulder press. Sorry going off topic

 

[LATS]

Good post. It’s my understanding that cluster and Myo rep type sets work because your still technically tapping in to the growth reps on your 2/3/4th etc cluster. Isn’t there a strong argument that you almost need to get the early reps out the way to get to the growth fail reps. Always like when you contribute. I assume your lats68 on insta. im garagegymer you liked my nytram shoulder press. Sorry going off topic

Hey brutha.. good to see ya here.. nytram is good stuff.. I remember your posts.. like your setup

 

[xpoc]

The 3/4 rep thing started back on the 90s with Mike zumpano.. he was the owner of champion nutrition.. he was traini g guys to train just the middle range of a rep.. he felt that range could be overloaded and more mechanical tension could be placed on the muscle.. many followed suit at golds Venice with this.. Tom prince.. Curtis leffler.. hernon..and many others. No stretch.. no contraction.. zumpano thought while utilizing this method that reps shoukd be higher for the most part and preached nothing less than 12 to 15 reps.. many times much higher..
Now I'm not saying he invented it.. he just gave it " reason" and explained why it was better in his opinion..

Flash forward to modern times... based on what I have read the stretch is really important for hypertrophy as it contributes to muscle damage which is one of the main factors contributing to hypertrophy. But, like someone else said, you can't simply trust the science blindly because there are variables not taken into consideration in these studies. And, these dudes including Hernon were fuxking huge so whatever they were doing worked.

 

[KTT]

Flash forward to modern times... based on what I have read the stretch is really important for hypertrophy as it contributes to muscle damage which is one of the main factors contributing to hypertrophy. But, like someone else said, you can't simply trust the science blindly because there are variables not taken into consideration in these studies. And, these dudes including Hernon were fuxking huge so whatever they were doing worked.

Posted by PHIL HERNON on 01-25-2004 10:17 AM:
My opinion

I grew way more after I stopped stretching. The people who wrote this article, were they ever as big as Ronnie Coleman? Dorian Yates? VIctor Richards? Did these men incorporate stretching? In theory, it is a good idea. In reality, it hindered my workouts. Remember now, this is just me. I get a great stretch each repetition, and personally, I think that is enough.

Posted by PHIL HERNON on 01-25-2004 01:48 PM:
Factors

I have seen amny instances however where a guy takes a long layoff and never gets back to his original size. Wouldn't this blow the theory? I mean, there are other factors way more improtant than stretching the fascia. I want to see pictures of a small guy on steroids who never lifts weights, but just stretches. By this theory, he will still grow, correct? There are limiting factors yes, but fascia expansion isnt one in my opinion. John Parillo was never a big man, and Dennis Newman was huge before John got ahold of him. I trained with Dennis, and we never stretched. Remember, this is just what I have observed with myself and other bodybuilders, not scientific evidence for or against stretching. The muscles get stretched each rep, and how far that range needs to be is still under significant debate. Curtis Leoffler, a great friend of mine and a genius when it came to training and supplementation, told me to stay in a zone, meaning no full extension or full contraction. I believe Michael Zumpano (another genius) came up with this idea and Curtis Blew up!! To each his own I guess, and stick with whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

[jeroendebleser]

Posted by PHIL HERNON on 01-25-2004 10:17 AM:
My opinion

I grew way more after I stopped stretching. The people who wrote this article, were they ever as big as Ronnie Coleman? Dorian Yates? VIctor Richards? Did these men incorporate stretching? In theory, it is a good idea. In reality, it hindered my workouts. Remember now, this is just me. I get a great stretch each repetition, and personally, I think that is enough.

Posted by PHIL HERNON on 01-25-2004 01:48 PM:
Factors

I have seen amny instances however where a guy takes a long layoff and never gets back to his original size. Wouldn't this blow the theory? I mean, there are other factors way more improtant than stretching the fascia. I want to see pictures of a small guy on steroids who never lifts weights, but just stretches. By this theory, he will still grow, correct? There are limiting factors yes, but fascia expansion isnt one in my opinion. John Parillo was never a big man, and Dennis Newman was huge before John got ahold of him. I trained with Dennis, and we never stretched. Remember, this is just what I have observed with myself and other bodybuilders, not scientific evidence for or against stretching. The muscles get stretched each rep, and how far that range needs to be is still under significant debate. Curtis Leoffler, a great friend of mine and a genius when it came to training and supplementation, told me to stay in a zone, meaning no full extension or full contraction. I believe Michael Zumpano (another genius) came up with this idea and Curtis Blew up!! To each his own I guess, and stick with whatever you feel comfortable with.

I fully agree with Phil here about doing your reps in the midrange. This however doesn't mean no stretching takes place. It simply means overstretching is not a requirement for growth (and may even be harmful) to take place.

But if you're training for hypertrophy purposes, working that midrange in a piston-like fashion is indeed the way to go. Phil was a little out there sometimes and from what I've heard not the most ethical character neither but he did know his bodybuilding like very few others did...

 

[LATS]

Posted by PHIL HERNON on 01-25-2004 10:17 AM:
My opinion

I grew way more after I stopped stretching. The people who wrote this article, were they ever as big as Ronnie Coleman? Dorian Yates? VIctor Richards? Did these men incorporate stretching? In theory, it is a good idea. In reality, it hindered my workouts. Remember now, this is just me. I get a great stretch each repetition, and personally, I think that is enough.

Posted by PHIL HERNON on 01-25-2004 01:48 PM:
Factors

I have seen amny instances however where a guy takes a long layoff and never gets back to his original size. Wouldn't this blow the theory? I mean, there are other factors way more improtant than stretching the fascia. I want to see pictures of a small guy on steroids who never lifts weights, but just stretches. By this theory, he will still grow, correct? There are limiting factors yes, but fascia expansion isnt one in my opinion. John Parillo was never a big man, and Dennis Newman was huge before John got ahold of him. I trained with Dennis, and we never stretched. Remember, this is just what I have observed with myself and other bodybuilders, not scientific evidence for or against stretching. The muscles get stretched each rep, and how far that range needs to be is still under significant debate. Curtis Leoffler, a great friend of mine and a genius when it came to training and supplementation, told me to stay in a zone, meaning no full extension or full contraction. I believe Michael Zumpano (another genius) came up with this idea and Curtis Blew up!! To each his own I guess, and stick with whatever you feel comfortable with.

Yeah I brought up Mike zumpano a few posts ago.. many don't know him.. but Curtis ( great guy) started using it.. then you saw it all over golds.. prince.. Titus.. etc.. now zumpano didn't invent it of course as some were using it before him ..but he did address why it works.. there are weak points in any range.. constantly tapping g over them just reduces load or mechanical stress.. that being said many massive guts use a full stretch and contractions.. BUT.. there are many more massive guys who people question their form.. because of their lack of full range.. well.. maybe they are on to something..

 

[xpoc]

And to further illustrate there is more than one way to skin a cat. The anti-stretch sentiment is polar opposite to the DC model which has also built many monsters. In the Phil quote above he mentions his opinion was not based on scientific evidence for or against stretching. Whereas the DC model has cited the bird wing stretch study that showed significant hypertrophy to stretching under loads.

 

[xpoc]

Ive seen a few vids of Phil preaching against any type of stretch in calf raises. In a few vids he simply has the guy hold DB's in his hands with his feet flat and then do toe raises. Going no lower than returning his heels to the ground (and he wasn't barefoot, his shoes had a padded heel). Once again, in contrary to those who are proponents of stretch overload, holding the stretch under load etc.

 

[Papa Van Smack]

Tenny had a good one for squats and if memory serves me; 10 sets, same weight, 20 seconds rest between sets.

I could walk for a few days but you get accustomed to it, not sore. It’s a hell of a leg workout.

Hope Tenny chimes in on this (MIA?), see if I got it right.

I do something similar. 225lbs....100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes. Naturally the first couple of sets are pretty high rep.

 

[alfresco]

Ive seen a few vids of Phil preaching against any type of stretch in calf raises. In a few vids he simply has the guy hold DB's in his hands with his feet flat and then do toe raises. Going no lower than returning his heels to the ground (and he wasn't barefoot, his shoes had a padded heel). Once again, in contrary to those who are proponents of stretch overload, holding the stretch under load etc.

Phil turned me on to non-stretching / flat footed calf raises and I have never looked back. They are that good, especially if you go as high as possible and hold. My calves have actually improved with his advice. I don’t have any before fotos but I do have some current fotos of my calves Thai attribute to his method.

 

[LATS]

I agree.. flat footed for calves for movements. But I will do weight stretches for calves at the end.. but they are not part of a exercise range of motion

 

[xpoc]

Here is the opposite side of the Hernon coin:

 

[Dens228]

Here is the opposite side of the Hernon coin:

Just goes to show, nothing works and everything works.

 

[xpoc]

Just goes to show, nothing works and everything works.

I agree. I simply cannot wrap my head around partial movements and no stretch being more beneficial than using a full ROM. And the study about the loaded stretch for hypertrophy is compelling. Along with the entire DC foundation. HOWEVER, one thing I liked about Phil was his out of the box methods including training total body, every day, one set till failure. It is so counter culture that you want to immediately dismiss it. Just like I wanted to dismiss the no stretch, mid range reps only, but hell the proof is in the pudding. Guy is huge. People he trained got huge training like this. Nothing works and everything works...exactly.

 

[Analog2]

I'm impressed you guys care about calves. I don't compete and naturally have ok size there so I never train them.

 

[xpoc]

I'm impressed you guys care about calves. I don't compete and naturally have ok size there so I never train them.

I live in SoCal so I wear shorts all the time. People notice when you have huge arms and skinny calves. Even if you have big quads, it still creates the Captain Upper Body image. I need to work them more often....they are just so boring AND painful.

 

[Analog2]

I live in SoCal so I wear shorts all the time. People notice when you have huge arms and skinny calves. Even if you have big quads, it still creates the Captain Upper Body image. I need to work them more often....they are just so boring AND painful.

Also, always heard forearms and calves are largely genetics. Some of that seems true, ive seen guys with huge wrists and they almost always have big forearms development.

 

[Transformer]

Training wise i have worked with meadows (rip) , got milos training plan, ive also done SST with nicolas villoud etc...
johns training is the best and most structured-- purely because he makes you think about what your doing on each rep...
the best i EVER grew, was with Jason huh--- he has me doing TONS of volume, im talking 6-7 exercises, 5-6 sets , reps 8-15... grew well..

Anyway--- in terms of training, since ive moved to the middle east, they DO nothing special, at all ( i mean fst7 sometimes ) its all HIGH volume,
high frequency, lol pretty much like old school training--- the guys out their are built like crazy--- and their dosages arent crazy---- well maybe im nothing and they didn't want to put me on loads, but all i can say is i had some time under the camel crew with other friends, and the dosages were lower then what ive been asked to do from american and uk coaches--- the only difference is they seem to change compounds contiously no matter what phase your in bulk or cut lol