High Dose - Long Term Dbol

[BrooklynBB]

There's loads of articles on the internet about Dbol, it's usage, it's side effects and it's benefits in terms of bodybuilding.

The few points that stick out is that it undoubtedely works, but you'll lose most of the gains - somewhere around 70% - once you come off.

The consensus is that one should not take more than 30mg at any one time, and if you're going to go high dose you should spread it out at least 3 times a day (i.e., Big Heinz hits it up at 90mg a day sometimes!)

As well, the liver toxicity has been discussed numerous times.

Finally, there seems to be a notion that dbol will cause severe bloat if taken in too high a dose all at once.

Well, I know one person who has been on long term dbol (going on 4 years now) and has upped the dose gradually from one 5mg dose a day in the morning to 25 - 30 mg a day in the past 3 months - one dose, upon waking up. He's not bloated, he's muscular, has very little acne (gets a pimple every now and then but nothing severe like bacne or shoulders) and he allegedly feels great.

Now I can't say for sure if he's only stuck with dbol. The guy does train heavy and like a monster - 700 pound deadlifts, 405 incline bench presses, 500 pound squats - all for reps. He's been very consistent, no health problems whatsoever, and just says he feels great. My gains on sust have been good, but I'm not pushing those types of weights at all.

He also supplements with 500mg of milk thistle every day, so he seems to have that part of the liver equation covered as well.

My question is - all of those negative side effects - the bloating, severe acne, liver damage - is it all a bunch of bullshit? Can anyone point to any sliver of evidence that Dbol, taken in high doses for long periods of time - does anything more than give a guy a shitload of strength, and if eating enough calories, a shitload of muscle and bulk??

Could it really be that testosterone itself - it's various esters such as Enanthate, Cypionate, and Sustanon-type blends - are the real culprits when it comes to health issues? It's shown that Test will shut down your hpta rather quickly, cause an increase in bloodpressure, a decrease in HDL and increase in LDL, and cause water bloating (i've seen it happen many times). Could the base of testosterone be the real problem and not the anabolic derivatives that cause the issues?


There has been some anecdotal evidence that large amounts of dbol is HARMLESS. There's posts by an infamous "BodyByBob" on some message boards where he states a former Mr. America has used dbol for years on end and even still uses it now with absolutely no problems. There's others who post that Dbol gave them nothing but incredible strength - and they maintained most of the gains. There's some stories about 70's bodybuilders popping dbols all day like candy and never reporting any sides.

This is completely opposite of what's discussed on the net. And I've tried my best to search for people who have had severe problems from taking long term dbol, and came up empty. All I've found is people directing users to NOT use DBOL alone, that it wont help them, and it's silly to use it. But I couldn't find the evidence that says taking DBOL alone will hurt you in any form. Quite the opposite - that's it's very beneficial and effective on its own.

So can anyone point me to where I can find actual evidence showing that dbol does anything more to a healthy adult male other than give him incredible strength, incredible muscle gain and a feeling of well being? And I'm not looking for scientific studies, I've read alot of them. I need actual examples of people suffering negative side effects which were irreversible on a sustained cycle of DBOL only for years and the negative consequences thereof.

 

[Big_O]

Here's One..!

Well, I think age has alot to do with the sides....I'm now 47 and soon to be 48 and it just has to many sides for me in any dose...

When I was in my late 20's I was up to 15 e/d or 75 mg's..I would use d-bol for 12-16 weeks and usually kicked in the drol at week 10 of the cycle for the last kick before competition...
The drol doses I was using at the time were up to 350 mg's of Syntex drol e/d..My sides were very little except being grouchy and the B.P. being thru the roof....220/130 somewhere in that range...YEA REALLY...I was a walking headache,and miserable because of lack of sleep...

I know now by week 5 using minimal doses that gyno symptoms start for me...I love d-bol and drol but for myself it's not worth it too me...Then I have to take nolva and everything else to counter the sides from the d-bol..

So my point is ..IMO...I think it's age related as far as the sides go and is certainly dose related...for what this is worth....

 

[hompie]

Well, I think age has alot to do with the sides....I'm now 47 and soon to be 48 and it just has to many sides for me in any dose...

When I was in my late 20's I was up to 15 e/d or 75 mg's..I would use d-bol for 12-16 weeks and usually kicked in the drol at week 10 of the cycle for the last kick before competition...
The drol doses I was using at the time were up to 350 mg's of Syntex drol e/d..My sides were very little except being grouchy and the B.P. being thru the roof....220/130 somewhere in that range...YEA REALLY...I was a walking headache,and miserable because of lack of sleep...

I know now by week 5 using minimal doses that gyno symptoms start for me...I love d-bol and drol but for myself it's not worth it too me...Then I have to take nolva and everything else to counter the sides from the d-bol..

So my point is ..IMO...I think it's age related as far as the sides go and is certainly dose related...for what this is worth....

I'm sure its age related.
"In the old days" I could take anything without sides , now its only the mild stuff for me. Test, Deca, Primo, Boldone......thats it.
Orals give me stomach-acid, high BP and Insomnia.
Im almost 42 now and have been juicing for more then 20 years.
How is your health Big O ?

 

[homonunculus]

So can anyone point me to where I can find actual evidence showing that dbol does anything more to a healthy adult male other than give him incredible strength, incredible muscle gain and a feeling of well being? And I'm not looking for scientific studies, I've read alot of them. I need actual examples of people suffering negative side effects which were irreversible on a sustained cycle of DBOL only for years and the negative consequences thereof.

THese were not all with d-bol by itself, but related:

1. Hernandez-Nieto, L., M. Bruguera, J. Bombi, L. Camacho, and C. Rozman. Benign liver-cell adenoma associated with long-term administration of an androgenic-anabolic steroid (methandienone). Cancer. 40:1761-1764, 1977.
A 19-year-old man with paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobinuria treated for 3 years with Methandienone was admitted to the hospital with hemoperitoneum due to the rupture of an hepatic tumor. Histology revealed that it was a benign liver cell adenoma, with a pathologic appearance and mode of clinical presentation closely resembling those of cases observed to develop in association to contraceptive steroids.


1. Stocker, C., B. Hardmeier, M. Looser, C. Scharf, and P. Greminger. [Cholestatic jaundice and pruritus]. Schweiz Rundsch Med Prax. 91:1561-1564, 2002.
The 38 year old male patient was admitted to our clinic with jaundice and invalidating pruritus of unknown origin. The primary evaluation made by the practitioner of the patient and the initial examinations performed in the clinic revealed no diagnosis. In particular, an infectious liver disease could be excluded. Reevaluation of anamnestic data revealed then the in-take of Dianabol, an often used anabolic steroid as the most possible reason for the cholestatic hepatopathy.


1. Winwood, P. J., D. A. Robertson, and R. Wright. Bleeding oesophageal varices associated with anabolic steroid use in an athlete. Postgrad Med J. 66:864-865, 1990.
A 30 year old bodybuilder who had been taking anabolic steroids for 18 months presented with bleeding oesophageal varices. Serious liver disease secondary to anabolic steroids including peliosis hepatis, nodular hyperplasia and malignant change is well recognized. We report what is, to our knowledge, the first case of bleeding oesophageal varices associated with the use of anabolic steroids.


1. Falk, H., L. B. Thomas, H. Popper, and K. G. Ishak. Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Lancet. 2:1120-1123, 1979.
A retrospective epidemiological study of deaths from hepatic angiosarcoma (HAS) in the U.S. showed that during 1964--74 there were 168 such cases, of which 37 (22%) were associated with previously known causes (vinyl chloride, 'Thorotrast', and inorganic arsenic) and 4 (3.1%) of the remaining 131 cases with the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids. It is suggested that the long-term use of androgenic-anabolic steroids is the fourth cause of HAS, the majority of cases still being of unknown aetiology. Moreover, the presented cases serve as a link in a spectrum of hepatic disorders recently recognised to be caused by environmental agents such as vinyl chloride, arsenic, and thorotrast, and by contraceptive and anabolic steroids. Similar precursor stages, usually not recognised by clinical laboratory tests and consisting of areas of hyperplasia of hepatocytes and sinusoidal cells and sinusoidal dilatation, lead potentially to hepatic adenoma, carcinoma, peliosis, and angiosarcoma.

-Randy

 

[Big_O]

Good ?...You got an hour..?
Well I just had my 3rd left knee surgery 8 weeks ago,vasectomy 1 week after the knee and I just had my gall bladder removed 2 weeks ago...My gyno is acting up a little from 250 mg's of test e e/w..HRT if your wondering....

Otherwise really good...No I'm serious...I feel really good....for an old man of 47...I'm about to start another cycle here in a week or 2...I want to make sure I can work out without any issues before I start again...

How were your gains with primo,,,? I was seriously thinking of primo this next cycle....I know I want to try winstrol but I certainly don't need the joint pain either....It's tough when you get old..it really is....I don't need more weight I always could use more qualitity muscle....I also do longer cycles than most
24-30 and change up gear around week 12...

I'm open to anyone's suggestions on gear....and results that you've gotten..

 

[MikeS]

Personally I feel specific orals loose their effectiveness after 4-6wks. Especially Anadrol. So, I switch e5wk. Anadrol-dbol-winny-halo/proviron. Obvious goal is to put on some size and strength and the cut at cycle end. Of course the drugs wont get you cut, but you hold less water and fat on the non-aromatizing stuff at the end.

As for what to run non-stop Id never use an oral like dbol. Test is what I seem to react best with. So I stay on at least a little test always, more at the cycles start.

Just my way, what works for me.

 

[BrooklynBB]

Well, I think age has alot to do with the sides....I'm now 47 and soon to be 48 and it just has to many sides for me in any dose...

When I was in my late 20's I was up to 15 e/d or 75 mg's..I would use d-bol for 12-16 weeks and usually kicked in the drol at week 10 of the cycle for the last kick before competition...
The drol doses I was using at the time were up to 350 mg's of Syntex drol e/d..

So my point is ..IMO...I think it's age related as far as the sides go and is certainly dose related...for what this is worth....

Thanks for the response, Big O. But you kind of proved my point: You didn't just take Dbol alone, and you were taking incredibly high amounts of A-bombs - 7 of them a day. That's where your problems came from, I believe. Not the dbol.



Homon, thanks for the studies. Like I said, I already read most of the Dbol evidence against taking it and liver damage. The problem with the first study is they don't mention the dose and if that really was the only substance he took. There's no mention of diet nor training protocol nor purpose of the dbol.

The second study says dbol is only a "possible" reason for the issues.

The last two studies make no specific mention of dbol whatsoever.

So I'd like to continue this discussion and see if any anecdotal evidence can be found from people who actually used a dbol only cycle and hurt themselves in anyway.

My belief is that dbol is not as harsh as stated, the side effets exagerrated, and it's probably much safer than the internet makes it seem.

 

[homonunculus]

Homon, thanks for the studies. Like I said, I already read most of the Dbol evidence against taking it and liver damage. The problem with the first study is they don't mention the dose and if that really was the only substance he took. There's no mention of diet nor training protocol nor purpose of the dbol.

The second study says dbol is only a "possible" reason for the issues.

The last two studies make no specific mention of dbol whatsoever.

So I'd like to continue this discussion and see if any anecdotal evidence can be found from people who actually used a dbol only cycle and hurt themselves in anyway.

My belief is that dbol is not as harsh as stated, the side effets exagerrated, and it's probably much safer than the internet makes it seem.

Brooklyn,

Those are just the study abstracts. You will need to go to the library or download them online (likley for a price, unless you can get access at the library or via a library membership, e.g., a student id #).

The abstracts will not likely give you the info. you want. You'll need to dig a little...

-R

 

[KillerStack]

I saw Rex make an interesting post about orals on another board. I see he's reading, maybe he'll chime in.

 

[LATS]

wel, i ll see what rex says.. he is very knowledgable.. but, my own personal feelings are that dbol or any other oral. just to be safe.. should not be taken for any significant length of time.. 4 weeks max.. when i do dbol, i feel a little nauseated at times.. i prefer to take it in one dose right before my workout.. it works well.. really well.. i dont buy into losing 70% of gains made from it though.. i have never experienced that..

 

[Vespa103]

Brooklyn there are always going to be several variables and it is very difficult to say dbol did this

Or anything for that matter did this

People have preexisting conditions and are predisposed or could just me random

Having said that I have used dbol in the 50mg a day range and have had bloating, high cholesteral 328, blood pressure, acne and red moonface all acceptable at the time for me

Some people never get sides on anyting other do its always a risk

BOTTOM LINE SIMPLE LOGIC

Oral have to go through you liver and the rest of your digestive track Injectibles go right into the bloodstream therefore less risk with injectibles to certain organs

Your buddy feels great but what do his liver values look like?

 

[BrooklynBB]

Agreed with you about individuality

Brooklyn there are always going to be several variables and it is very difficult to say dbol did this

Or anything for that matter did this

People have preexisting conditions and are predisposed or could just me random

Having said that I have used dbol in the 50mg a day range and have had bloating, high cholesteral 328, blood pressure, acne and red moonface all acceptable at the time for me

Some people never get sides on anyting other do its always a risk

BOTTOM LINE SIMPLE LOGIC

Oral have to go through you liver and the rest of your digestive track Injectibles go right into the bloodstream therefore less risk with injectibles to certain organs

Your buddy feels great but what do his liver values look like?

I completely agree with you that side effects and benefits vary from person to person. What I'm looking for is that smoking gun that says, "Dbol definitively caused liver problems using it long term, high dose" and I haven't found that yet.

Why? Because most people just stack it with something else. Logic would say that you cannot simply leave out the fact you've used Testosterone or any other substance in addition to dbol and blame all the side effects only on dbol. Logic would say that it's possible Test, Deca, Anadrol contributed either as much or MORE Than DBOL would by itself.


My friends liver values are in the normal range. He takes one dose in the morning before training, that's it. I, on the other hand, take test and have some issues with high blood pressure (not that bad, but elevated). He has no such issues.


LATS: Yeah, I know what you mean about the 70% loss of muscle being BS. I think that only happens to people who do not increase thier calories properly or maintain a higher caloric intake after coming off.

Personally I've never been nausues on dbol ... maybe I'm just lucky? And in terms of strength, nothing so far I've taken has beat it, and I'm not about to try Anadrol.

But isn't it funny - Anadrol was specifically created to be more anabolic then dbol - which it is - with less side effects - which it certainly isn't. Kind of makes you think that what's on paper most of the time means very little in the real world.

Anyway, I don't think it matters much that test goes straight to the bloodstream and dbol has to pass through the liver. Dbol is 17-AA to bypass the liver and get to the bloodstream. But still, the incidence of liver issues hasn't been proven yet.

By the way - reforvit-B - the injectable version of Dbol - is less effective MG for MG when compared to the oral. Why is that? Logic would say that you'd be able to use more DBOL and thus get a more effective response, but this just isn't the case.

Again, I think DBOL is actually alot better than most people give it credit for, and a hell of a lot safer than most people think on the net.

 

[LATS]

well.. reforvit was a pathetic product.. sometimes it worked sometimes nope.. i do remember seeing tests run on various batches and they never tested well.. usualy more like 50% underdosed..

 

[KillerStack]

There was an interesting article recently in an online mag about orals and liver toxicity. Won't post a link but it was written by M.Fischer. Some new ideas and info.

 

[felthamboy]

killer could you give us a quick brife about what he say i have not done orals in a long time but im thinking about it and would be very interested to see what he has to say

many thank
simon

 

[Massive G]

Personal experience it's toxic and potent and I wouldn't use it long term.

 

[phreak]

Anyway, I don't think it matters much that test goes straight to the bloodstream and dbol has to pass through the liver. Dbol is 17-AA to bypass the liver and get to the bloodstream. But still, the incidence of liver issues hasn't been proven yet.

Again, I think DBOL is actually alot better than most people give it credit for, and a hell of a lot safer than most people think on the net.

dbol isn't 17-AA to "bypass" the liver, it's 17-AA so that when it makes it's second pass through the liver it isn't rendered inert. this is what causes the stress on the liver.

i feel the same way you do brooklyn, i have used dbol many times, and find it to be an excellent strength and mass builder. the price nowadays makes it even more attractive. i have found that sides are entirely dose dependent for me. 30mg/day seems to be my magic number. i limit my intake these days to 4 weeks max, not because of liver stress, but because of the estrogen buildup. as i have gotten into my 30's i seem to be more prone to gyno. i'm using 30mg/day right now and my system is tolerating it very well.

in my 20's i took it for up to 8 weeks at a time, usually in the 40-60mg/day range. i used to have a purple head, be short of breath, whatever lol. i didn't care back then.

i think the liver is a very robust organ. in a healthy adult male it takes ALOT of 17-AAs over extended periods to cause a significant damage.

i agree with others in that moderate dosages for 4 week periods are the best way to go.

 

[homonunculus]

I completely agree with you that side effects and benefits vary from person to person. What I'm looking for is that smoking gun that says, "Dbol definitively caused liver problems using it long term, high dose" and I haven't found that yet.

To find this "smoking gun" as it related to liver problems, I think you'll need to look at evidence where the liver's function was examined medically.

-Right now, that includes the reports of people like Massive G and others who have had regular bloodwork done.

-The studies that I posted above and likely the many others that are cited in there or can be found using the science citation index (webofscience.com), which lists papers that cite a given paper (papers that refer to a study on dianabol were published at a later date and often have pertinent info. / followup).

Sound to me like the vets are saying that their experience is that long-term Dbol isn't a great idea.

It sounds like you've spent a lot of time lookin' into this. Maybe a trip to the local Univ. library some day would be a good way to get some more info...

-R

 

[BrooklynBB]

It sounds like you've spent a lot of time lookin' into this. Maybe a trip to the local Univ. library some day would be a good way to get some more info...

-R

Not needed. I have full access to the ful text of all abstracts presented on Medline. As I said twice before, I've researched methandrostenelone for years - literally - and still cannot equate the scientific studies with the alleged horrors that are spoken about exclusively on the internet.

And honestly, when studies are conducted on anabolic steroids, I take it with a grain of salt:

" Pflugers Arch. 1978 Jul 18;375(2):147-51. Related Articles, Links


Responses to intensive training and methandrostenelone administration: II. Hormonal, organ weights, muscle weights and body composition.

Stone MH, Rush ME, Lipner H.

The hormonal levels of the gonadotropins, the weight of selected organs and of the triceps surae as well as body composition were determined in Sprague Dawley rats at 3 and 6 weeks after intensive training with or without a methandrostenelone (Dianabol) supplement (0.35 mg/kg/day). The controls were sedentary rats of similar age and weight at the start of the experiment. The dianabol treated rats in the sedentary and exercise groups had a depression of plasma LH levels. There were no differences in body weight, specific gravity, lean body weight, fat or %fat between the two trained groups. Dianabol had no apparent effect on the measured parameters other than a depression of LH.

PMID: 567785 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] "

Maybe that's because the poor little Sprague Dawley rats didn't have 20kilogram Ivanko plates to train with.

I'll do my best to break this down into the simplest question:

Can anyone here prove to me without a doubt that DBOL casuses anything more than REVERSIBLE side effects, even when taken long term and in high doses?

I'm glad that everyone is putting input into it - You, Massive G, Phreak, others - And I'm not ignoring what you or anyone else is saying here.

But the point you're not seeing, homonunculus, is that I've heard all of that before. I've heard of the side effects, the liver enzyme elevation, the bloat effect, etc.

AND, I've also heard of guys in thier 70's who allegedly used loads of dbol every single day in their 20's, 30's into thier 40's and have absolutely no liver damage at all. They have no problems producing testosterone, and are as strong as ever.

So balancing those two out, I can only come to this conclusion:

Dbol causes REVERSIBLE side effects upon cessation of administration, even in dosages exceeding 100mg per day, based on anecdotal evidence.

There's been no evidence to the contrary, and I think that Dbol is actually safer than straight testosterone administrered in any form due to more issues with high blood pressure, progesterone, RBC cout, HDL reduction / LDL increase, etc.

And I also believe that DBOL is far superior to any other oral in terms of cost / effect, and the only reason it's treated like a poison is so more can be charged for more toxic substances such as Anadrol and Halo, and less effective orals such as Anavar and Primo tabs.

 

[LATS]

i think we must always keep in mind what is "harmful" to some others tolerate well.. i am a low does guy.. why..? i just dont fee well on high dosages.. that is my body telling me something.. some.. can do large dosages and never even get a zit lol.. so.. 50 mgs of dbol to some is great.. 20 is all others can do.. your question is a good one.. and has opened a good thread and dialogue.. awesome.. but, everyone reacts so different it is hard to say.. buddy of mine got high bp and gyno from 750 mgs of test.. nothing else.. another friend of mine runs 1500 of test pretty regular.. nothing.. very little bloat and blood pressure stays within "safe" limits.. no anti e's either.. go figure..