How important do you believe the pump is?

TheSteamboat · Mar 1, 2023

Came across the interview with Mike Van Wyck on Fouad’s channel.

Mike was saying how he’d rather someone go in and chase a skin splitting pump rather than them go in and try and beat the log book.

He believes the pump is everything for training. What are your guys opinions?

I try to make sure I get both a great pump while beating the log book, but the reality is some days the pump just isn’t as good whether it was just an off day, hydration etc. so I find it hard to believe the progress isn’t going to be just as effective just because the pump happened to be lackluster.

Flex500 · Mar 1, 2023

It's so hard to say one or the other. If you look at it at the extremes if you only worried about a pump, that just would not be conducive to maximal growth. On the other hand, most people define "beat the log book" as throwing around weight at all costs, which doesn't seem great either.

I honestly think the best way to train is in a way where you control your reps complete, transition smoothly, and you are under load giving extreme effort for a longer period of time. You will then be able to chase both. I'm not talking super slow reps or something like that.

For example, today, I did a machine row and it was 4 second negative, a very slow and smooth transition to the concentric, 3 second concentric, 2 second squeeze and repeat. I try to then beat the log book but every rep looks exactly the same no matter what. You get strong/beat the book but have a skin splitting pump. Most of my reps take a full 6-10 seconds each total. Squats are 3-5 seconds down, a total dead stop, and push up for a ~2 second concentric. Tendons healed, no pain, getting stronger on less (almost no) drugs, and skin bursting pump.

To be honest seeing nick walker train live when he isn't filming his reps were very similar. I was surprised...it's even slower and more methodical than his youtube videos.

I believe it's easier than people think to match the two and get the 1+1=5 equation.

TheSteamboat · Mar 1, 2023

Flex500 said:
It's so hard to say one or the other. If you look at it at the extremes if you only worried about a pump, that just would not be conducive to maximal growth. On the other hand, most people define "beat the log book" as throwing around weight at all costs, which doesn't seem great either.

I honestly think the best way to train is in a way where you control your reps complete, transition smoothly, and you are under load giving extreme effort for a longer period of time. You will then be able to chase both. I'm not talking super slow reps or something like that.

For example, today, I did a machine row and it was 4 second negative, a very slow and smooth transition to the concentric, 3 second concentric, 2 second squeeze and repeat. I try to then beat the log book but every rep looks exactly the same no matter what. You get strong/beat the book but have a skin splitting pump. Most of my reps take a full 6-10 seconds each total. Squats are 3-5 seconds down, a total dead stop, and push up for a ~2 second concentric. Tendons healed, no pain, getting stronger on less (almost no) drugs, and skin bursting pump.

To be honest seeing nick walker train live when he isn't filming his reps were very similar. I was surprised...it's even slower and more methodical than his youtube videos.

I believe it's easier than people think to match the two and get the 1+1=5 equation.

Much agreed with all of this

qbkilla · Mar 1, 2023

I think both. You need to get stronger. But there is a benefit to the pump aka volume with lighter weights. I will typically aim for both for a lagging part keeping in mind I only have x hours per week to train

So say I want to focus on arms. Do a bro split, rest pause, aim to get stronger on key lifts where I effectively target the muscle. Then since I am focusing on arms, hit them on 2-3 other days at the end high reps, get a pump, but not so hard that I can't progress on BBC and dip machine (my main loading days on my actual arm day).

I think for parts like side and rear delts where it's harder to keep getting stronger, volume and pump training are more important than say legs or chest where you can beat the log book for a while. Would be interested to hear if others think the same or different about certain body parts.

Biggerp73 · Mar 2, 2023

Completely stupid. There's a million guys in the gym chasing the pump, getting insanely pumped every workout, but never lifting truly big weights, and never looking anything more than simply cut and athletic. Now go find the guys in the gym that can lift heavy ass weight. Not all of them will be huge, but not a single huge ass MFer in there won't be in that group of guys who can lift heavy ass weight, and most of the guys in that group will be big AF. Not to say the pump (really just contraction-focused training in mid to upper rep ranges) isn't relevant to hypertrophy. The guy quoted in the OP is another example of these so-called experts and gurus who don't know what TF they are doing or talking about.

stackdizzy · Mar 2, 2023

With slin and gh I don't know if you can actually get more pumped than that physiologically regardless of what you do. Though if I had a good week of working out and I sore AF I will just go in and get a pump in all my muscles quick to get some blood in them.
This will probably be my rabbit hole for the evening as it sounds kinda fascinating as I have never heard of going specifically for a pump ed.....but I have now.

IronM · Mar 2, 2023

The pump is the best

Cerberus777 · Mar 2, 2023

The pump is from having adequate nutrients and hormones. Throw some cialas and or slin in the mix I don't see how you don't get a pump when lifting heavy to failure. I've got a pump by the time I've done my warm up sets.

Ruhlfreak55 · Mar 2, 2023

I would say the pump is intrinsically important for growth. My understanding has been that it's a very important (if not the most important) component of growth. It's by this mechanism you feed the muscles nutrients, stretch the fascia, etc.

TheOtherOne55 · Mar 2, 2023

I'm also assuming "lifting for the pump" is lifting without failure...
But Dante had a fantastic explanation on his last blog post. If just lifting for the pump was the BEST/MOST OPTIMAL way to get huge, the world would be filled with massive guys. Thats because the average Joe Schmoe at the gym lifts like this....not progressing their weights. Doing 4 sets of 12 over and over again and just "feeling huge" day after day, month after month and so on. We see the massive anecdotal evidence in front of us every day at our gyms....it just doesnt do it. At least for 99.1 of the world's population.

CAN IT HAVE ITS PLACE WHEN SOMEONE IS MASSIVE OR GROWING INTO A MASSIVE BBER? Yes definitely. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy DOES have benefits.
The special elite genetics guys can get big mowing their lawn, the other 99% cannot. That 99% (most of us here) must progress with weight, with food, with drugs, etc.

btails · Mar 2, 2023

I think there's so much variability due to interpretation here that no one's really on the same page...

Like when I go to the gym and do 2 sets of incline. Both to failure 6-10 reps. 2 mins between sets. My chest is already beyond pumped at this point and I look like I just blew up balloons and put them under my shirt.

I dont understand the whole concept of chasing a pump or chasing strength as they're one in the same for me

qbkilla · Mar 2, 2023

TheOtherOne55 said:
I'm also assuming "lifting for the pump" is lifting without failure...
But Dante had a fantastic explanation on his last blog post. If just lifting for the pump was the BEST/MOST OPTIMAL way to get huge, the world would be filled with massive guys. Thats because the average Joe Schmoe at the gym lifts like this....not progressing their weights. Doing 4 sets of 12 over and over again and just "feeling huge" day after day, month after month and so on. We see the massive anecdotal evidence in front of us every day at our gyms....it just doesnt do it. At least for 99.1 of the world's population.

CAN IT HAVE ITS PLACE WHEN SOMEONE IS MASSIVE OR GROWING INTO A MASSIVE BBER? Yes definitely. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy DOES have benefits.
The special elite genetics guys can get big mowing their lawn, the other 99% cannot. That 99% (most of us here) must progress with weight, with food, with drugs, etc.

I think what you said about failure is important. I have always been a low volume guy. Recently I decided to add more volume by doing pump work after my heavy sets. But the pump work is to failure too, higher repse, drop sets, myo reps to failure. If people are just chasing a pump or volume and not training hard hitting failure, using rir, rpe scale, big waste of time.

Maybe others are different but I associate "training hard" as hitting failure. Drop sets all drops are failure, etc

danieltx · Mar 2, 2023

qbkilla said:
I think what you said about failure is important. I have always been a low volume guy. Recently I decided to add more volume by doing pump work after my heavy sets. But the pump work is to failure too, higher repse, drop sets, myo reps to failure. If people are just chasing a pump or volume and not training hard hitting failure, using rir, rpe scale, big waste of time.

Maybe others are different but I associate "training hard" as hitting failure. Drop sets all drops are failure, etc

Training hard and hitting failure are not the same thing. Hitting failure requires training hard but training hard doesn't require hitting failure. If you take every set to failure you're going to have problems recovering and you're not going to gain optimally.

Biggerp73 · Mar 2, 2023

danieltx said:
Training hard and hitting failure are not the same thing. Hitting failure requires training hard but training hard doesn't require hitting failure. If you take every set to failure you're going to have problems recovering and you're not going to gain optimally.

True that.

Biggerp73 · Mar 2, 2023

I can strict curl the 75lb dumbbells for a set of 8 reps and not come anywhere near close to failure but rest assured that requires a shit ton of effort to complete nonetheless. When training heavy your required to train hard even if you aren't close to failure.

When guys ask for advice in the gym sometimes I'll just tell them, what do you think your three rep max is? Ok just go lift that once with good form and call it a day. Teaches them how to get strong without overtraining and that extra strength will translate to growth overtime as they use bigger weights on their higher rep sets

iron lifter · Mar 2, 2023

a pump doesn't always mean you are breaking down muscle fibers for growth. i can get a crazy pump doing very light weight for high reps, probably won't illicit any growth. now if you are doing german volume training like milos has his guys do you are in a way progressivly overloading and shocking the muscle.

so it all depends on how the pump is achevied i guess.

Zamun · Mar 2, 2023

A pump doesn’t really mean shit, but when I have low e2/sodium and can’t get a pump life sucks lmao.

qbkilla · Mar 2, 2023

iron lifter said:
a pump doesn't always mean you are breaking down muscle fibers for growth. i can get a crazy pump doing very light weight for high reps, probably won't illicit any growth. now if you are doing german volume training like milos has his guys do you are in a way progressivly overloading and shocking the muscle.

so it all depends on how the pump is achevied i guess.

I didn't know Milos has his guys do gvt. Is this the Charles poliquin method? I wonder how he incorporates his giant sets within that program?

kastro · Mar 2, 2023

qbkilla said:
I didn't know Milos has his guys do gvt. Is this the Charles poliquin method? I wonder how he incorporates his giant sets within that program?

He also has them on a ton of slin.Don't know if that is irrelevant or not.