Improve cholesterol numbers without statins?

[richiec]

I've explained why I believe the #'s may be skewed, but here goes again: I got bloods after 2.5 weeks of tren of 300mg/wk

My cholesterol typically is within range. Getting BW in a few weeks to see where I am

 

[parrajm]

Rofl what's your clinical experience?

4 years of patient care and MD training at one of the best medical institutions in the world. What's yours?

I wasn't even going to say anything about your claim that statins have low efficacy. Thats simply ridiculous as the significant reduction in LDL due to statins is literally one of the most well supported therapeutic mechanisms in medicine. Additionally, statins lower systemic inflammation which is considered a root cause for atherosclerotic vessel damage. They also have a well documented effect on lowering cardiac related mortality. Pertinent landmark studies are the 4S trial in 1994, the Jupiter trial in 2008, the TNT trial in 2005, the WoSCOPS trial in 1995, as well as many others. But you get the point. Anyone that can take a statin, should take a statin. I understand the aversion on a body building/powerlifting forum (the occasional instance of myopathy and rare side effect of rhabdo), so I offered a different solution. Of the hundreds of patients I have seen on statins, only one recorded that adverse event and it went away when switched to a different statin at a lower dose in combination with another cholesterol lowering agent.

You are giving bad and dangerous advice.

 

[asteelz]

4 years of patient care and MD training at one of the best medical institutions in the world. What's yours?

I wasn't even going to say anything about your claim that statins have low efficacy. Thats simply ridiculous as the significant reduction in LDL due to statins is literally one of the most well supported therapeutic mechanisms in medicine. Additionally, statins lower systemic inflammation which is considered a root cause for atherosclerotic vessel damage. They also have a well documented effect on lowering cardiac related mortality. Pertinent landmark studies are the 4S trial in 1994, the Jupiter trial in 2008, the TNT trial in 2005, the WoSCOPS trial in 1995, as well as many others. But you get the point. Anyone that can take a statin, should take a statin. I understand the aversion on a body building/powerlifting forum (the occasional instance of myopathy and rare side effect of rhabdo), so I offered a different solution. Of the hundreds of patients I have seen on statins, only one recorded that adverse event and it went away when switched to a different statin at a lower dose in combination with another cholesterol lowering agent.

You are giving bad and dangerous advice.

Your not the only one here with medical training I could tell your still a student based on the " it's genetics, here's drugs" approach. lol I am? Reduce sugar , add healthy fats, and increase fiber is bad advise ?

 

[gotgame]

I know ive posted this probaby 20+ times but the bbing community needs to chill with this statin witch hunt.

1. I 100% believe that many of the lipid issues that MOST ( not all but most) people in the general public have can be controlled by diet and exercise.

2. Statins dont just work by lowering lipids but work on remodeling soft plaque that is already present ( think of it like boiling an egg). So lipid numbers, while important, arent the end all be all when it comes to benefits of statins.

3. Should general population take them if good lipids, blood pressure, healthy lifestyle and NO genetic risk factors...probably not.

4. BBers on an AAS forum are not the "general population". This community is a high risk population whether you want to believe it or not.

5. I never blame genetics first.. i blame the individual lol. But sometimes genetics certainly play a role and that should be identifie.


Guys i know im not gonna change too many minds but please understand the reason why i am even on this board is to try to help the community that i consider to be the family to try to be healthy.


Each person who is using AAS needs to consider adding aspirin, an ARB or ACEi, and yes..a LOW DOSE statin. Im not trying to get people to just take a bunch of random drugs but AAS do have known proven side effects despite what you may want to believe the major ones are CAD, cardiac hypetrophy and renal issues. Doing my best to help you guys get older.

 

[warlock]

I know ive posted this probaby 20+ times but the bbing community needs to chill with this statin witch hunt.

1. I 100% believe that many of the lipid issues that MOST ( not all but most) people in the general public have can be controlled by diet and exercise.

2. Statins dont just work by lowering lipids but work on remodeling soft plaque that is already present ( think of it like boiling an egg). So lipid numbers, while important, arent the end all be all when it comes to benefits of statins.

3. Should general population take them if good lipids, blood pressure, healthy lifestyle and NO genetic risk factors...probably not.

4. BBers on an AAS forum are not the "general population". This community is a high risk population whether you want to believe it or not.

5. I never blame genetics first.. i blame the individual lol. But sometimes genetics certainly play a role and that should be identifie.


Guys i know im not gonna change too many minds but please understand the reason why i am even on this board is to try to help the community that i consider to be the family to try to be healthy.


Each person who is using AAS needs to consider adding aspirin, an ARB or ACEi, and yes..a LOW DOSE statin. Im not trying to get people to just take a bunch of random drugs but AAS do have known proven side effects despite what you may want to believe the major ones are CAD, cardiac hypetrophy and renal issues. Doing my best to help you guys get older.

Thank you for all that. I value your experience and opinion.

Would you take the ARB and low dose statin only when on cycle? I know you might not want to recommend anything specific, but iof it was you, what ARB and statin would you use and how many mg of each per day?

I appreciate your help.

 

[gotgame]

Thank you for all that. I value your experience and opinion.

Would you take the ARB and low dose statin only when on cycle? I know you might not want to recommend anything specific, but iof it was you, what ARB and statin would you use and how many mg of each per day?

I appreciate your help.

Im ok with giving recommendations anonymously which is the point of my having an account that doesnt have my real name. If i ever create an account where i use my real name I wouldnt give specific advice and would stick with concepts.You would probably know its me based on me never really proof reading what i type and my style of just free form typing..at least you know im not copy pasting anything lol

If you do not have any predisposing risk factors and are legit healthy meaning below probably 13% bodyfat, eat a healthy diet with low sugars, healthy fats, fiber, veggies and some fruits etc and doing legit cardio on a regular basis then I would suggest the following

While on cycle and through pct take an arb like either losartan or telmisartan ( i recently switiched to telmi) at maybe something like 20mg telmi daily. remember...**i am making this shit up based on my personal opinion**you wont find studies with bbers, aas, and these dosing regimines. I feel this to be enough to break up the RAS and hopefully prevent some cardiac remodeling.

as for the statin- that depends on how often you are using. More then maybe 8 weeks on a year on AAS then maybe low dose statin for an extended period of time might be useful.

10mg daily or maybe 20mg 3x a week should be enough. again...no data on AAS users this is based on the general population and combining it with my experience monitoring AAS labs and imaging. Unfortunately this isnt the type of stuff i can publish.

looking at ppl who are against statins are also some guys who are using tren, halo, winny, 1g + a week gear, insulin, HGH, bulking, taking a ton of random "supplements"..:banghead: yea...thats ok because it makes you look better superficially but god forbid you take something that may be saving your life..but yea it wont make u more ripped ( although telmi may have some benefical properties for fat loss)

 

[Gizmo]

Just started 10mg/Day of Lipitor yesterday. Both my parents take them and are fine, my lipids aren't good(genetically) so I figured I really should take some precautions, especially while on. I still need to do a lifeline screening just to see how things look on the inside. My dad had a heart attack at 50 (fairly heavy smoker), and has been on statins for almost 2 decades and is absolutely fine.

 

[warlock]

Im ok with giving recommendations anonymously which is the point of my having an account that doesnt have my real name. If i ever create an account where i use my real name I wouldnt give specific advice and would stick with concepts.You would probably know its me based on me never really proof reading what i type and my style of just free form typing..at least you know im not copy pasting anything lol

If you do not have any predisposing risk factors and are legit healthy meaning below probably 13% bodyfat, eat a healthy diet with low sugars, healthy fats, fiber, veggies and some fruits etc and doing legit cardio on a regular basis then I would suggest the following

While on cycle and through pct take an arb like either losartan or telmisartan ( i recently switiched to telmi) at maybe something like 20mg telmi daily. remember...**i am making this shit up based on my personal opinion**you wont find studies with bbers, aas, and these dosing regimines. I feel this to be enough to break up the RAS and hopefully prevent some cardiac remodeling.

as for the statin- that depends on how often you are using. More then maybe 8 weeks on a year on AAS then maybe low dose statin for an extended period of time might be useful.

10mg daily or maybe 20mg 3x a week should be enough. again...no data on AAS users this is based on the general population and combining it with my experience monitoring AAS labs and imaging. Unfortunately this isnt the type of stuff i can publish.

looking at ppl who are against statins are also some guys who are using tren, halo, winny, 1g + a week gear, insulin, HGH, bulking, taking a ton of random "supplements"..:banghead: yea...thats ok because it makes you look better superficially but god forbid you take something that may be saving your life..but yea it wont make u more ripped ( although telmi may have some benefical properties for fat loss)

I appreciate your reply and thoughts. I come to the forum to learn and get educated and always feel open to listening to those that share good knowledge.

As far as the statin, which one do you personally prefer?

If doing a cycle for 8-16 weeks a year, you would run the statin all through the cycle and then possibly for another 4-6 weeks after? Would that be a good baseline?

Thanks again for your time.

 

[nothuman]

Ok, so I just grabbed some more Ubiquinol and some Krill. The Krill comes in 1250mg, should I be taking this twice a day? So 2500 total per day?

I prefer 1250mg krill in the morning and then a high quality fish oil the rest of the day. There are benefits in fish oil that you don't get in krill and vice versa. I used to only take fish oil but once I got krill, I lowered the dose because of the addition.

 

[Massive G]

Statins save millions of lives like GG says, they definitely have their uses in the medical industry but at times I think they are over prescribed by MD's as many anti-depressants are.
My own father was told he had a heart attack * after he had an axiety attack went to the hospital and told after getting scanned "he had the smallest arteries they'd ever seen, and one had a blockage" the put a stint in and on a potent drug cocktail of lipitor, nitro plavix, and 2 other things including Beta blocker" * Muscle enzymes were raised not cardiac- good gosh he just returned from a 5 mile run and scans showed NO damage to the heart tissue.
Now my dad is a small man I got my genetics from my grandpa, but he was 170 lbs and jogged every day. Diet wasn't the best but cholesterol was perfect and BP was low. I can't see the need for all those drugs, he would take his BP 20 times a day and slam a nitro, we had to call the ambulance several times as he fainted from low BP. finally mom took the nitros away. The stent cause problems and he went in for at the time "radiation seed therapy" for the artery and new medicated stent put in at Hopkins. Several years later they found the artery was destroyed from the stents, and had to do open heart surgery.
Dad is the type that would take dog shit if the doc said do it, he constantly was going to docs for chronic muscle pain and I told him it's the lipitor, he basically had very little cholesterol in his body. finally he got off it and was fine, the open heart surgery was amazing very fast recoup and doing great today with the new artery taken from his leg.

I do agree more AAS abusers on this forum need statin help, it can and will save your life like GG says.

 

[get it in ya]

been on pravastatin for 8 years, cholesterol has been perfect since being on it, I trust my dr very much

 

[Smack]

I know ive posted this probaby 20+ times but the bbing community needs to chill with this statin witch hunt.

1. I 100% believe that many of the lipid issues that MOST ( not all but most) people in the general public have can be controlled by diet and exercise.

2. Statins dont just work by lowering lipids but work on remodeling soft plaque that is already present ( think of it like boiling an egg). So lipid numbers, while important, arent the end all be all when it comes to benefits of statins.

3. Should general population take them if good lipids, blood pressure, healthy lifestyle and NO genetic risk factors...probably not.

4. BBers on an AAS forum are not the "general population". This community is a high risk population whether you want to believe it or not.

5. I never blame genetics first.. i blame the individual lol. But sometimes genetics certainly play a role and that should be identifie.


Guys i know im not gonna change too many minds but please understand the reason why i am even on this board is to try to help the community that i consider to be the family to try to be healthy.


Each person who is using AAS needs to consider adding aspirin, an ARB or ACEi, and yes..a LOW DOSE statin. Im not trying to get people to just take a bunch of random drugs but AAS do have known proven side effects despite what you may want to believe the major ones are CAD, cardiac hypetrophy and renal issues. Doing my best to help you guys get older.

If allergic to aspirin what would you recommend instead?

 

[heman4u]

Fish Oil + Garlic

I had tried Fish Oil providing EPA 1980mg and DHA 1320mg with Garlic Supplement 1000mg/day when my cholestrol got high and it worked. Lowered my total cholestrol, LDL, Triglycerides, Total Chol. to HDL and LDL-HDL ratios etc.

 

[nothuman]

I know ive posted this probaby 20+ times but the bbing community needs to chill with this statin witch hunt.

1. I 100% believe that many of the lipid issues that MOST ( not all but most) people in the general public have can be controlled by diet and exercise.

2. Statins dont just work by lowering lipids but work on remodeling soft plaque that is already present ( think of it like boiling an egg). So lipid numbers, while important, arent the end all be all when it comes to benefits of statins.

3. Should general population take them if good lipids, blood pressure, healthy lifestyle and NO genetic risk factors...probably not.

4. BBers on an AAS forum are not the "general population". This community is a high risk population whether you want to believe it or not.

5. I never blame genetics first.. i blame the individual lol. But sometimes genetics certainly play a role and that should be identifie.


Guys i know im not gonna change too many minds but please understand the reason why i am even on this board is to try to help the community that i consider to be the family to try to be healthy.


Each person who is using AAS needs to consider adding aspirin, an ARB or ACEi, and yes..a LOW DOSE statin. Im not trying to get people to just take a bunch of random drugs but AAS do have known proven side effects despite what you may want to believe the major ones are CAD, cardiac hypetrophy and renal issues. Doing my best to help you guys get older.

I would never question your knowledge because you have forgotten more than I will ever know. However I don't understand why anyone, especially bodybuilders, should ever use a statin when we have discovered natural, healthier methods of normalizing lipids. More importantly, we know that there is virtually no correlation between cholesterol and heart disease and statins are harmful for our hearts (defeating the purpose of why doctors began prescribing them). I know you read all the medical research so I assume you've seen all of this. What makes statins ok for bodybuilders and not the general population with all of this in mind?

And no, I would never say statins are worse than tren or superdrol lol

 

[nothuman]

Statins save millions of lives like GG says, they definitely have their uses in the medical industry but at times I think they are over prescribed by MD's as many anti-depressants are.
My own father was told he had a heart attack * after he had an axiety attack went to the hospital and told after getting scanned "he had the smallest arteries they'd ever seen, and one had a blockage" the put a stint in and on a potent drug cocktail of lipitor, nitro plavix, and 2 other things including Beta blocker" * Muscle enzymes were raised not cardiac- good gosh he just returned from a 5 mile run and scans showed NO damage to the heart tissue.
Now my dad is a small man I got my genetics from my grandpa, but he was 170 lbs and jogged every day. Diet wasn't the best but cholesterol was perfect and BP was low. I can't see the need for all those drugs, he would take his BP 20 times a day and slam a nitro, we had to call the ambulance several times as he fainted from low BP. finally mom took the nitros away. The stent cause problems and he went in for at the time "radiation seed therapy" for the artery and new medicated stent put in at Hopkins. Several years later they found the artery was destroyed from the stents, and had to do open heart surgery.
Dad is the type that would take dog shit if the doc said do it, he constantly was going to docs for chronic muscle pain and I told him it's the lipitor, he basically had very little cholesterol in his body. finally he got off it and was fine, the open heart surgery was amazing very fast recoup and doing great today with the new artery taken from his leg.

I do agree more AAS abusers on this forum need statin help, it can and will save your life like GG says.

I'm sorry bud but statins kill exponentially more people than they save. They were initially prescribed for improving cholesterol because that was thought to cause heart disease. We now know that is not the case and that statins actually directly cause heart problems.

Statins also destroy what makes up our hormones and brain cells by the way.

You know I read a lot of research so I'm not just pulling this info out of nowhere.

 

[Gizmo]

I'm sorry bud but statins kill exponentially more people than they save. They were initially prescribed for improving cholesterol because that was thought to cause heart disease. We now know that is not the case and that statins actually directly cause heart problems.

Statins also destroy what makes up our hormones and brain cells by the way.

You know I read a lot of research so I'm not just pulling this info out of nowhere.

Can you post the actual studies brother? The only studies I've read where statins increased mortality were on extremely high doses. There are some increased risks when it comes to for example diabetes, but on "normal" doses the benefits far outweigh the risks.

 

[asteelz]

If you actually compare the mortality rates in the randomized control trials with statins you will find the change in mortality to be in the single digits.. even the low risk trial, Jupiter, never properly concluded. Instead the pharma industry uses risk ratio and states 40-50% efficacy when it's really more like 2-5% for mortality.

Any good biochemist knows statins interupt an intermediate melvanoate process in cholesterol biosynthesis, which is also downregulated via ampk ( exercise, metformin, etc). One would argue the anti inflammatory efects yet again without any knowledge of the biochemistry. Inhibition of a pathway related to isoprenoids that down regulate nitric Oxide synthase.. which is upregulated via a healthy diet and exercise.. hell even red yeast rice is shown to have a statin like effect.. remodeling of plaque measured with ultrasound showed an insignificant reduction, and concluded that effect simply altered the mechanism by which heart disease progresses .. rupture to erosion.

Idc if nobody agrees with me, this is the beauty of a forum. Diet and exercise will always be key to longevity, genes are turned on and off by these factors and come second. This has been measured successfully over the last few years.

 

[gotgame]

I would never question your knowledge because you have forgotten more than I will ever know. However I don't understand why anyone, especially bodybuilders, should ever use a statin when we have discovered natural, healthier methods of normalizing lipids. More importantly, we know that there is virtually no correlation between cholesterol and heart disease and statins are harmful for our hearts (defeating the purpose of why doctors began prescribing them). I know you read all the medical research so I assume you've seen all of this. What makes statins ok for bodybuilders and not the general population with all of this in mind?

And no, I would never say statins are worse than tren or superdrol lol

I would strongly disagree in saying that there is no correlation between lipids and heart disease. It has been looked at so many times. Are there certain things that contribute more...just a blood pressure.. I would say yes but lipids involvement I do no believe can be disputed at this time. There are a few smaller studies showing how other things such as HDL, triglyercides ( my own research on that one) and certian subfractions play a role more then totol cholesterol and LDL but it would take some of the best studies ive ever seen to change my mind about the effect of cholesterol and LDL on CAD as ive seen it literally thousands of times in patients. Ive also seen statins stablize and help reverse damage being done and then posted here about two years ago when I had a doctor who came in with a cardaic CTA a few years after stopping his statins and what happened..just one of many ive seen.

I know i posted this before, but as recently as 2012-2013 I personally looked at triglyercides and i certainly accounted for as many variables as possible, and they showed a significant correlation with both abdominal aorta plaque and coronary plaque. Of course I am aware of MOA of statins and minimal effects of tris but that isnt my point.I also strongly advocate for controlling tris and i happen to like using EPA for that ( not DHA).

I would never think that something that is labeled as "healthier" or "natural" is truely that. It takes very large studies to show that. Many drugs given to a pretty large group of people over certain periods of time didnt show any issues but when samples size AND duration increased then we saw some issues. It would be very short sighted to think that something we classify as natural is healthier and it takes outcomes studies to show effectiveness.

Part of my reasons is because I personally see bodybuilders scans from guys who are in there early 30's and early 40's and see so many that are well advanced with coronary artery disease and calcified plaque in there vasculature. This is NOT normal and it is above what would be expected so after seeing so much of this and given what we know about AAS ive personally stratified that many AAS users/abusers are high risk and would likely benefit from statins.


In an ideal world guys would keep cycles very short, nothing really harmful, limit any damage and wouldnt need to worry. But just clicking through threads on proM i can tell that this is a higher risk population then I would want it to be.

You know i believe in diet and exercise and for MOST patients this is enough and I wouldnt recommend drugs. But this community is taking drugs..it had a profound effect on our bodies and you are trying to battle the side effects of strong drugs ( AAS) with truely natural means like diet and exercise.. It can help but in my opinion for the guys who are abusing AAS statins may be worth looking into.

I know you have a good grasp on these things and ive stated before that if someone fully understands the science, understands the risks, then that is there choice to makes and i fully respect that. In my opinion poor lipids in directly linked to CAD, statins improve lipids and remodel plaques that are present and would be beneficial to high risk AAS bbers. Ask me in 10 years and if new data comes out to support something different my stance my change. To me its not personal, its just fact based.

 

[gotgame]

We know that AAS are effective at accomplishing the goal we want. Its not natural, its been isolated, modified and studied. No one would contend that taking natural herbal supplements are more effective and better means of accomplishing our superficial goal of more muscle and less fat.

If you want to increase your IGF levels we all agree that taking GH is one of the best ways...you wouldnt recommend taking l-dopa or something. GH is a drug and its effective and what we want.

When we take too must test and it converts to estrogen..are we reaching to some natural AI's to combat those sides.. heck no! if you did we would have gyno pretty quickly so we dont do that because the boobs would be noticable quickly.

If we are losing our hair or having too much DHT conversion and causing prostate issues from AAS..are we taking some natural DHT inhib like saw palmetto are are we reaching for finasteride and duta.

When you come off cycle are you reaching for maca and avena sativa or you rocking clomid hcg and an AI? Oh we believe that fertility meds are more effective and restoring our HPTA and fertility and random OTC herbs? Why?? Oh waits maybe its its noticable when our dick doesnt work and lab test show our test levels never recovered.

BUUUUT the one of the most serious side effects from AAS which is CAD we are reaching for OTC natural methods?? Why the discrepancy? Statins are studied more then any of the drugs we take yet we believe AAS "facts" based on a lot of anecdotal evidence but when there is strong science to support that statins could help prevent some of the damage we are doing people are all of a sudden against it but then most posts the next day about there summer cycles and the drugs they are using.

Nothuman, this is NOT directed at you but at the community in general. I dont follow the logic.. the only logic i follow is superficial vs not. People want proven drugs to accomplish superficial goals but want to feel like they are taking a "healthier" route to accompish ones they cant see...until for many its too late.


I am not pushing drugs on anyone who doesnt need it. DIET and EXERCISE are number 1 ALWAYS!! but if you are high risk, and u know who u r....then stop trying to fool yourself.

 

[asteelz]

I would agree that anyone in the high risk catagory should consider pharmacological intervention to mitigate their own " pharmacology " my post was directed more at the low end user and fitness enthusiast types vs the hardcore peddle to the floor bodybuilder. To the guy who gets labs done and finds his hdl is 5 , and his VLdl is 10x that, :yeahthat::yeahthat: