LANTUS to improve insulin sensitivity - "experiment"

[Type-IIx]

How is a 5.1 to a 4.0 A1C not a significant change?

This is obviously a single person anecdote, but now you’re just being pedantic and gatekeeping the word significant. @luki7788 never claimed this was some sort of lab controlled research or that any scientist called this a “significant change”, he’s just sharing his experience.

You’re just throwing around jargon to try and dispute things as much as possible, bringing up his iron (which I’m sure Luki checks frequently) and even the season . What is really more likely, be logical… that the change in season/some sudden iron deficiency he developed in ONE MONTH caused this drastic change in A1c… or the lantus. Luki is incredibly regimented with diet, just read his log. He is very consistent, this is not some sudden change with folic acid or vitamin E, do not be ridiculous. We know that with liver disease (although not exactly what Luki was experiencing), if anything we see a falsely low A1c… and since luki has been recovering wouldnt we if anything see it raise if the liver issues were giving it a false reading?

I do not really know you, but you seem to be looking for a reason to dispute that any change happened for no apparent reason.

Listen, you idiot lunatic, I am not talking to you. I am talking to luki, and hoping to helpfully correct him from leading people astray with well-intentioned but unintentionally harmful advice, because he has a large following - and is still a great coach, despite that fact.

 

[KingOfSushi]

Listen, you idiot lunatic, I am not talking to you. I am talking to luki, and hoping to helpfully correct him from leading people astray with well-intentioned but unintentionally harmful advice, because he has a large following - and is still a great coach, despite that fact.

Great dispute. I’m sure you’ll save many lives by people not using 10iu lantus

 

[luki7788]

Listen, you idiot lunatic, I am not talking to you. I am talking to luki, and hoping to helpfully correct him from leading people astray with well-intentioned but unintentionally harmful advice, because he has a large following - and is still a great coach, despite that fact.

man... respect people because you have absolutely no respect if anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is immediately called an idiot...

this is not the right way...

 

[pesty4077]

Please keep things civil. Thank you.

 

[juggy38]

I think what @Type-IIx is trying to confer, is that Hba1C is a poor lab value to infer changes in insulin sensitivity. A1C is just an average measurement of glycemic control and estimates protein glycation of the cell.

Hell, you could probably drop A1C even father by increasing the dose of lantus and keeping carbohydrate intake low….so for a month your just walking around at 65-70mg/DL all the time.

The problem with looking at A1C alone, is HbA1C does not account for fasting insulin levels, or the acute insulin-induced changes in glucose, or responsiveness to a glycemic load like a OGTT.

Now if Luki ran this experiment again, checking Quantitative Insulin Sensitivity Check Index (QUICKI), before and after….that would shed more light on the actual measurement of “insulin sensitivity”

But it is quite interesting to see the results of his experiment nonetheless!

 

[JohnJ1990]

in my case, small doses of lantus 10-15iu a day to about 800g of carbohydrates made my blood glucose much higher than without using lantus. I have no idea why this is happening.

 

[luki7788]

in my case, small doses of lantus 10-15iu a day to about 800g of carbohydrates made my blood glucose much higher than without using lantus. I have no idea why this is happening.

question when do you use lantus? I suppose in the morning so I'm not surprised - use it before bed and you'll see the difference

 

[KingOfSushi]

Please keep things civil. Thank you.

Apologies if anything I said came off as not civil. Probably didn’t need to make that last comment, just don’t like when someone attacks me as a person for giving opinions/viewpoints.

 

[pickapeck]

My little lantus experiment

I wanted to test the theory that administering lantus in small doses over a longer period of time improves insulin sensitivity and lowers A1c

4 weeks on the protocol 10iu lantus before bed 5x a week (I didn't give it the night before the day off from training because I have low carbs on my days off so it wasn't needed)

Below are the results of the test before and after - the first photo before the second after

You have probably thought of this but the experiment will have to be long enough to allow the change in conditions to be reflected in decreased glycation products of hemoglobin. I don't know the answer but since hemoglobin is inside RBCs and their circulation lifetime is ~120 days the experiment should probably be that long. You are also just looking for a few % change in an overall 2-5% total hemoglobin with detectable glycation of their amine groups.

 

[luki7788]

You have probably thought of this but the experiment will have to be long enough to allow the change in conditions to be reflected in decreased glycation products of hemoglobin. I don't know the answer but since hemoglobin is inside RBCs and their circulation lifetime is ~120 days the experiment should probably be that long. You are also just looking for a few % change in an overall 2-5% total hemoglobin with detectable glycation of their amine groups.

but I see that most misunderstood - the "experiment" will take longer - I just presented the results after the first 4 weeks and of course I realize that they are not entirely reliable

 

[warlock]

question when do you use lantus? I suppose in the morning so I'm not surprised - use it before bed and you'll see the difference

What would be the reasoning behind using it at night vs. in the AM?

 

[pickapeck]

but I see that most misunderstood - the "experiment" will take longer - I just presented the results after the first 4 weeks and of course I realize that they are not entirely reliable

Pretty notable change already. What it reflects is lower overall glucose concentration in the blood over time. Definitely a more healthy state.

 

[luki7788]

What would be the reasoning behind using it at night vs. in the AM?

because we care about improving morning glucose and lantus works for 16-18 hours and not 24 hours as most say

 

[JohnJ1990]

question when do you use lantus? I suppose in the morning so I'm not surprised - use it before bed and you'll see the difference

Thank you. I will try to use it before bedtime. earlier, when I used lantus in the morning, after 5-7 days my morning glucose and between meals increased by 20-30 points and I felt terrible.

 

[Black Beard]

Listen, you idiot lunatic, I am not talking to you. I am talking to luki, and hoping to helpfully correct him from leading people astray with well-intentioned but unintentionally harmful advice, because he has a large following - and is still a great coach, despite that fact.

Chill @Type-IIx , you had a point that the experiment ideally has a 12 week testing period due to turnover rate of hemoglobin being about 12 weeks, but we did see a significant change in A1C and @luki7788 did acknowledge this as well.


You're usually more even keeled and logical than this. I don't think you have to resort to ad hominem attacks to get your point across, it just weakens your points/arguments.

My 2 cents^


Also, hba1c is just one piece of the glycemia/diabetes puzzle HOWEVER, a significant drop in hba1c proves there was a drop in the glycemic load on the body. What primarily damages our body with diabetes and insulin resistance is HIGH glucose levels which are cytotoxic to most of our cells (retinopathy, nephropathy, neuropathy etc)


Our priority is to reduce the glycemic load on the body and improve insulin sensitivity comes second to that. Luki's experiment seems to have accomplished the former which is what matters most for disease prevention and health.

 

[Type-IIx]

man... respect people because you have absolutely no respect if anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is immediately called an idiot...

this is not the right way...

If you're going to lecture me on my tact and tone when treated with incivility and become, reasonably, irritated, then I reserve the right to lecture you on your dangerous promulgation of risky drug use. You're lucky the liver is as resilient as it is.

Remember when Duchaine was regarded as a lunatic for being the only voice in bodybuilding openly promoting insulin use? I remember.

Now everyone thinks Lantus is not only fine, but healthy, because of writings like yours.

 

[Elvia1023]

Now everyone thinks Lantus is not only fine, but healthy, because of writings like yours.

I don't understand how you can jump to this conclusion. Luki has never stated insulin is healthy for everyone or that everyone should use it. He has repeated many times that most don't need to use it and shouldn't use it. He is using it under very specific circumstances. So specific that 99% of gym goers don't consume anywhere near the amount of calories/carbohydrates as Luki so they don't even need to use it. I can completely understand your initial point(s) and agree with them but as Blackbeard and KingofSushi alluded to your replies seem to have gone off track and I get the impression you would have disagreed with any "experiment" Luki posted on here.

 

[luki7788]

If you're going to lecture me on my tact and tone when treated with incivility and become, reasonably, irritated, then I reserve the right to lecture you on your dangerous promulgation of risky drug use. You're lucky the liver is as resilient as it is.

Remember when Duchaine was regarded as a lunatic for being the only voice in bodybuilding openly promoting insulin use? I remember.

Now everyone thinks Lantus is not only fine, but healthy, because of writings like yours.

you have a late ignition

I'm not even going to argue with you and lower myself to the level of children shouting over each other in kindergarten which is stupider - not my level

 

[pesty4077]

Stay civil and everyone is entitled to their point of view, not just yours. If you don't like what they say, move on to another post or thread. No need to make a big speech taking jabs at people.

 

[b-boy]

You say "significant change," but how have you determined significance? And what type of significance?

There is a change in the sense that there are 2 different values here, but only you have called it "significant."

There are two forms of significance that might apply to such a change -

First, there is clinical significance - that which has ramifications for your health and that should be addressed by a medical treatment plan, or

Second, there is statistical significance - that which, by applying probability & statistical methods, can be shown to have a strong likelihood, referred to as its confidence interval, of not being due to mere chance. In order to show statistical significance you'd need to have a sufficient sample size (of bloodwork tests) that are described by the normal distribution and some known dispersion (e.g., in the form of a standard deviation).

So, you may see how your merely saying it is "significant" does not make it so, either clinically or statistically.

But let us go ahead, and just for argument's sake, assume either clinical or statistical significance explains the difference in values here such that we assume there is some known factor(s) causing variability in your HbA1c results not related to any glycaemic variable (since it's not enough time to be related to blood glucose changes).

And, indeed, there are:

Variations in HbA1c on this time frame that have clinical significance include liver disease (causing variable results, increases and decreases wildly), and changes in iron status (deficiency increases HbA1c & high iron decreases it).

Variations in HbA1c without clinical significance but with statistical significance include season, such that HbA1c is statistically significantly higher in the winter, and vitamin B12 statistically significantly lowers HbA1c. Various other nutritional factors influence HbA1c with statistical significance as well, such as folic acid and vitamin E levels.

A lot of people come and go on this board so the scenery changes, but as of right now you are on my top 3 favorite posters on this site, I always value your opinion, information, and insight. Your one of the very few that are welcome to call me an idiot at any time and I will respect it..LOL