My plan for coming off (please critic)

Pi · May 31, 2008

I have been using gear for approximatly 4 years. For 2 years straight I have been "on". My usual dose is 450mg of test a week. Lately I have decided to come off. I have tried to come off 2 times in the past year. The first time I tried cold turkey with novadex (40mg a day). I found I lost a lot of my muscle mass and became horribly depressed. I tried again with a slow taper and novadex. Same results as last time. Depression, loss of sex drive (which is really hard to deal with in a relationship), and lose of muscle mass. I began to believe my cycle would end when I am 6 feet under.

However, I have devised a new plan now and I would like your guys imput. I have never seen a plan like it. Everyones heard of the dbol bridge but how about the anavar taper?

Basically I plan to come off like this
week 1 (discontinue test shots) 20mg of anavar/day
week 2 18mg of anavar/day
...
week 6 10mg of anavar
week 7 9mg
week 8 8mg
etc etc
all the way down to 1mg

Reason for picking anavar
1) Most sources say that 10mg is not suppressive to HTPA.
2) The most conservative sources state that anything under 2mg is definitly not suppressive
3) This gradual taper should allow endogenous test production back without loss of muscle
4) Since anavar is a DHT derivitive no aromatisation, this means less chance of estrogen side effects during PCT and more sex drive (hopefully)
5) Although anavar is 17 alpha alkylated the fact that I am taking such a small dose and the fact that anavar is the mildest of all 17AA steroids should mean that I wont have liver problems. Regardless Ill have liver function tested at week 10.

While doing this I plan on taking Melanotan II for erectile disfunction/loss of sex drive. I will also take Novadex 40mg a day.

Can anybody suggest improvements or alternatives to my plan? How come I have never heard about anyone using anavar in this way?

KillerStack · May 31, 2008

Pi said:
I have been using gear for approximatly 4 years. For 2 years straight I have been "on". My usual dose is 450mg of test a week. Lately I have decided to come off. I have tried to come off 2 times in the past year. The first time I tried cold turkey with novadex (40mg a day). I found I lost a lot of my muscle mass and became horribly depressed. I tried again with a slow taper and novadex. Same results as last time. Depression, loss of sex drive (which is really hard to deal with in a relationship), and lose of muscle mass. I began to believe my cycle would end when I am 6 feet under.

However, I have devised a new plan now and I would like your guys imput. I have never seen a plan like it. Everyones heard of the dbol bridge but how about the anavar taper?

Basically I plan to come off like this
week 1 (discontinue test shots) 20mg of anavar/day
week 2 18mg of anavar/day
...
week 6 10mg of anavar
week 7 9mg
week 8 8mg
etc etc
all the way down to 1mg

Reason for picking anavar
1) Most sources say that 10mg is not suppressive to HTPA.
2) The most conservative sources state that anything under 2mg is definitly not suppressive
3) This gradual taper should allow endogenous test production back without loss of muscle
4) Since anavar is a DHT derivitive no aromatisation, this means less chance of estrogen side effects during PCT and more sex drive (hopefully)
5) Although anavar is 17 alpha alkylated the fact that I am taking such a small dose and the fact that anavar is the mildest of all 17AA steroids should mean that I wont have liver problems. Regardless Ill have liver function tested at week 10.

While doing this I plan on taking Melanotan II for erectile disfunction/loss of sex drive. I will also take Novadex 40mg a day.

Can anybody suggest improvements or alternatives to my plan? How come I have never heard about anyone using anavar in this way?

Anavar is very suppressive. A 15mg dose will drop your test by 30% in 5 days. So even 10mg will work against you if you really want to recover. Same with dbol. And Anavar doesn't help mood either since it's so low androgenic. In fact, by itself it might even increase depressive feeling and reduce aggression.

In a situation like this I would opt for Proviron. It may not help recovery but will help with sex drive and mood.

Have you used any HCG at all during these 4 years? You probably need a lot of help in getting the testes to rebound. How much I don't know but I would run it for several weeks while you're still on a low dose of test (say 100-200mg). Then nolvadex plus proviron as needed.

If the depression is severe maybe explore some 'natural' mood supplements such as SAMe, St. John's Wort, Rhodiola, etc.

JMHO.

Edit: GH wouldn't hurt either

Curr Neurovasc Res. 2007 Feb;4(1):9-18.
Recombinant human growth hormone in abstinent androgenic-anabolic steroid use: psychological, endocrine and trophic factor effects.
Graham MR, Davies B, Kicman A, Cowan D, Hullin D, Baker JS.

Department of Exercise and Health Science, School of Applied Science, University of Glamorgan, Pontypridd, Wales, United Kingdom. [email protected]

This study examined whether six days recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) affected psychological profile in an abstinent androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS) abusing group, compared with an abstinent AAS control group. Male subjects (n = 48) were assigned in a random fashion into one of two groups: (1): (n=24) control group (C); (2): (n=24) rhGH group (GH). A hospital anxiety scale (HADS) questionnaire was completed by all subjects. Physiological responses investigated included anthropometry. Biochemical markers examined included; serum glucose, sodium, urea, lipid profile, high sensitivity C-reactive protein (hsCRP), homocysteine (HCY), tetra-iodothyronine (T4), thyroid stimulating (TSH), luteinising (LH) and follicle stimulating (FSH) hormones, testosterone (T), prolactin (PRL), cortisol and insulin like growth factor-1 (IGF-I). HADS questionnaire significantly decreased in both anxiety (A) and depression (D) symptoms within GH (P<0.017) and compared with C (P<0.05). Body mass index (BMI) and fat-free mass index (FFMI) significantly increased (both P<0.017) while body fat significantly decreased within GH (P<0.017). IGF-I significantly increased within GH (P<0.017) and significantly increased compared with C (P<0.05). Serum sodium significantly increased (P<0.017) and serum HCY, hsCRP, TSH and T4, significantly decreased within GH (all P<0.017). PRL significantly increased and T4 significantly decreased compared with C (both P<0.05). The findings of this study suggest that short term use of rhGH has beneficial effects on mental state in individuals who were previous abusers of AAS and appeared to have a beneficial effect on cardiovascular risk markers associated with adverse mental health.

Horm Res. 2008 Mar 17;69(6):343-354. [Epub ahead of print]
Physical Effects of Short-Term Recombinant Human Growth Hormone Administration in Abstinent Steroid Dependency.
Graham MR, Baker JS, Evans P, Kicman A, Cowan D, Hullin D, Thomas N, Davies B.

Health and Exercise Science Research Unit, Faculty of Health Sport and Science, University of Glamorgan, Pontypridd, UK.

Background/Aims: Recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) as opposed to cadaver pituitary GH is misused for physical improvement. Six days' rhGH administration, in abstinent anabolic-androgenic steroid dependents, was compared with controls. Method: Male subjects (n = 48) were randomly divided into two groups: (1): control group (C), n = 24, mean +/- SD, age 32 +/- 11 years, height 1.8 +/- 0.06 m; (2): rhGH-using group (0.058 IU.kg(-1).day(-1)) (GH), n = 24, mean +/- SD, age 32 +/- 9 years, height 1.8 +/- 0.07 m. Physiological measurements included anthropometry, strength, power and peak oxygen uptake (VO(2) peak). Biochemical measurements included haemoglobin, packed cell volume, glucose, sodium, potassium, urea, creatinine, total protein, albumin, thyroid function, testosterone, prolactin, cortisol, GH and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I). Results: Strength, peak power output and IGF-I significantly increased and total protein, albumin and free tetra-iodothyronine significantly decreased compared to controls (p < 0.05) and within the GH group (p < 0.017). Fat-free mass index and VO(2) peak significantly increased, while body fat and thyroid-stimulating hormone significantly decreased within the GH group (p < 0.017). Conclusions: Short-term rhGH increased strength and power. Of therapeutic value is the possibility that muscle bulk and strength could be increased in patients with muscle-wasting conditions. Copyright © 2008 S. Karger AG, Basel.

AWN2004 · May 31, 2008

Its amazing to me you don't have HCG listed and are even thinking of using it. Tamaxofin isn't going to do too much for you at all in terms of "waking" up your testicles again. Depending on how old you are, what other compounds you used, and how long you have been doing this (which you mentioned), you might need to be a little more aggressive at restoring your HPTA axis. Also taking Anavar is not comming off. I don't care where you read that or what person told you that.

Bottom line is this.........

Come off all that stuff and stay off. Its the only way to start your recovery. Get blood work done and then talk to a doctor if you did any significant damage to your own natural production of testosterone. You may need HRT but you will never know if you don't try to recover on your own.

tatteredxangelx · May 31, 2008

Just taper your test down, (if you started @ 500, do 2 weeks of 250 and than one of 100) ... and letro if you are gyno prone. If you take enough time off your nuts will go back to normal w/o HCG/Clomid etc ... go get checked, and once they are back to normal you can cycle again. Clomid does nothing for me, and the mental/acne sides are unbearable.

inoverdrive · May 31, 2008

I agree, Anavar will not help, you need HCG for several weeks. And in my opinion clomid therapy wouldnt be a bad idea either. Unfortunatly alot of guys are going to go thru the depression and loss of muscle mass regardless. You will never retain all your muscle.

Second staying on that much test is a waste to me, unless your on hrt at a lower dose. Like Killerstack said try Proviron to help with the mood and loss of sex drive.

emeric delczeg · May 31, 2008

Pi said:
I have been using gear for approximatly 4 years. For 2 years straight I have been "on". My usual dose is 450mg of test a week. Lately I have decided to come off. I have tried to come off 2 times in the past year. The first time I tried cold turkey with novadex (40mg a day). I found I lost a lot of my muscle mass and became horribly depressed. I tried again with a slow taper and novadex. Same results as last time. Depression, loss of sex drive (which is really hard to deal with in a relationship), and lose of muscle mass. I began to believe my cycle would end when I am 6 feet under.

However, I have devised a new plan now and I would like your guys imput. I have never seen a plan like it. Everyones heard of the dbol bridge but how about the anavar taper?

Basically I plan to come off like this
week 1 (discontinue test shots) 20mg of anavar/day
week 2 18mg of anavar/day
...
week 6 10mg of anavar
week 7 9mg
week 8 8mg
etc etc
all the way down to 1mg

Reason for picking anavar
1) Most sources say that 10mg is not suppressive to HTPA.
2) The most conservative sources state that anything under 2mg is definitly not suppressive
3) This gradual taper should allow endogenous test production back without loss of muscle
4) Since anavar is a DHT derivitive no aromatisation, this means less chance of estrogen side effects during PCT and more sex drive (hopefully)
5) Although anavar is 17 alpha alkylated the fact that I am taking such a small dose and the fact that anavar is the mildest of all 17AA steroids should mean that I wont have liver problems. Regardless Ill have liver function tested at week 10.

While doing this I plan on taking Melanotan II for erectile disfunction/loss of sex drive. I will also take Novadex 40mg a day.

Can anybody suggest improvements or alternatives to my plan? How come I have never heard about anyone using anavar in this way?

First, how old are you?

inoverdrive · May 31, 2008

tatteredxangelx said:
Just taper your test down, (if you started @ 500, do 2 weeks of 250 and than one of 100) ... and letro if you are gyno prone. If you take enough time off your nuts will go back to normal w/o HCG/Clomid etc ... go get checked, and once they are back to normal you can cycle again. Clomid does nothing for me, and the mental/acne sides are unbearable.

I have to disagree with you on this. After being on for so long he needs the hcg/ clomid. They might go back, depending on age but they wont go back to normal. Besides everyone responds differently to certain drugs.

You know the old saying, time on=time off!

KillerStack · May 31, 2008

tatteredxangelx said:
Just taper your test down, (if you started @ 500, do 2 weeks of 250 and than one of 100) ... and letro if you are gyno prone. If you take enough time off your nuts will go back to normal w/o HCG/Clomid etc ... go get checked, and once they are back to normal you can cycle again. Clomid does nothing for me, and the mental/acne sides are unbearable.

Sure he could recover without anything. Would probably take a couple of years though and even then maybe not back to normal.

Use Nolva instead of Clomid since Clomid isn't great for the mental state for many.

emeric delczeg · May 31, 2008

KillerStack said:
Sure he could recover without anything. Would probably take a couple of years though and even then maybe not back to normal.

Use Nolva instead of Clomid since Clomid isn't great for the mental state for many.

His age is very important ,before any help

OuchThatHurts · May 31, 2008

First, you are going to lose some muscle mass. Maybe a lot. There's no way around it. Did you think that you would sustain the amount of muscle you gained while taking 5-10 times your natural level of testosterone?

You need to see an endocrinologist at this point. There's nobody here that can realistically tell you what to do after being on for four years. They would need to make a professional examination of you physically (bloodwork, general physical, etc.).

You enjoyed and adjusted to the new muscle you gained right? Well, you'll have to readjust to the 'new you' when you are natural. You may even want to consider some therapy for your mind too, as well as your body.

Any way you slice it, it will be difficult.

Best wishes to a full recovery. Fortunately for you, there are a lot of things that can be done today as opposed to decades ago when they had little or nothing.

pesty4077 · May 31, 2008

OuchThatHurts said:
First, you are going to lose some muscle mass. Maybe a lot. There's no way around it. Did you think that you would sustain the amount of muscle you gained while taking 5-10 times your natural level of testosterone?

You need to see an endocrinologist at this point. There's nobody here that can realistically tell you what to do after being on for four years. They would need to make a professional examination of you physically (bloodwork, general physical, etc.).

You enjoyed and adjusted to the new muscle you gained right? Well, you'll have to readjust to the 'new you' when you are natural. You may even want to consider some therapy for your mind too, as well as your body.

Any way you slice it, it will be difficult.

Best wishes to a full recovery. Fortunately for you, there are a lot of things that can be done today as opposed to decades ago when they had little or nothing.

This is a very good post, I originally weighed 250 in 1990, and I lost alot of muscle when first coming off megadoseages, It effected me some what, but I learn that my overall health is more important. I accepted that I weigh 210 now and feel 100% better about myself.

Tom · May 31, 2008

I have to agree with OUCH...

This needs to be done under the guidance of a competent, understanding endocrinologist.

deltaguy · May 31, 2008

Dave_19 said:
You have to question WHY are you going off? Are you trying to let your body actually take a break from gear, and let your natural hormones level out? If so drop the bridging technique, its counter productive. Heres what I would have suggested:

considering you have been on for 4 yrs:
250iu HCG ED through out entire cycle, maybe pump it up to 1000iu before stopping, with 50mg proviron ED the last few weeks on cycle. I would then load and tapper down with Toremifene at least 3 months IMO to get back to normal. a monthly blood check would be wise. You may also want to consider some natural remedies to increase test.

Tom said:
This needs to be done under the guidance of a competent, understanding endocrinologist.

OuchThatHurts said:
First, you are going to lose some muscle mass. Maybe a lot. There's no way around it. Did you think that you would sustain the amount of muscle you gained while taking 5-10 times your natural level of testosterone?

You need to see an endocrinologist at this point. There's nobody here that can realistically tell you what to do after being on for four years. They would need to make a professional examination of you physically (bloodwork, general physical, etc.).

You enjoyed and adjusted to the new muscle you gained right? Well, you'll have to readjust to the 'new you' when you are natural. You may even want to consider some therapy for your mind too, as well as your body.

Any way you slice it, it will be difficult.

Best wishes to a full recovery. Fortunately for you, there are a lot of things that can be done today as opposed to decades ago when they had little or nothing.

Please note, I wrote this rather quickly because I am on my way out the door for sushi dinner. Everyone has provided some solid advice and they are all very intelligent and honest people. I agree with them regarding most of everything.

Ideally, I would see an endo asap. Realistically, you won't. Not saying it to be a dick but 95% of the people using gear will not see someone professional unless it is life threatening. Unfortunately, at this point, it is what it is. Everyone above has made some very valid points and have provided some very solid advice.

Now, if you cannot or choose not to see a professional then you better do the following: ******(for the record, I am not a doctor but i had a friend in a similar situation. He refused to see a doctor and we worked through it together. Now, that being said, there is no guarantee it will work for you but at the minimum you should try it and at least get blood work to confirm the progress and result).

First and foremost, I still think you should see an endo. Be honest and then also see a shrink for the mental uphill battle you will face.

However, this is the program I used for my friend he said it basically saved his life.

Stay the fuck away from clomid. You will have enough mental issues dealing with this and do not need to add any additional emotional distress.

Stay on for at least 4 to 6 more weeks (if possible)

Lower your test dosage to 250mgs ew and use a e3d inj protocol.

Hit HCG e3d @250ius for the entire 4 to 6 weeks on the same day you inj the test - discontinue the same day you discontinue the test inj

Add proviron at 50mg ed for the entire 4 to 6 weeks then drop it to 25mgs and run 1 additional week.

Approx 14 days after the last test inj hit the nolvadex at 20mgs ed (btw, there is no proof that 40mgs is better than 20 - it actually boils down to time and steady state serum levels) and run it for 12 to 16 weeks.

During PCT you want to take the following products to help with positive feelings and stress relief rescue sleep and rescue remedy made by bach. This shit works wonders. You can also add in St john's wort. You should keep training, keep eating well and sleep at least 8 hrs a day.

Blood work once a month to confirm your progress. Do not stop the nolvadex until you at least get blood work completed.

It took my friend 4 months to recover completely. He had been on for more than 5 yrs with no hcg, ever and he used serious compounds at some stupid doses. I know this protocol worked for him because he had the blood work once a month to prove it was working.

I haven't spoken to him in a long while but I know he is doing well and he was able to father 3 kids with his wife. If I can get in touch with him and persuade him to join the board, he will vouch for this protocol.

I wish you the best of luck but would prefer you see someone profession.

OuchThatHurts · May 31, 2008

deltaguy said:
Please note, I wrote this rather quickly because I am on my way out the door for sushi dinner. Everyone has provided some solid advice and they are all very intelligent and honest people. I agree with them regarding most of everything.

Ideally, I would see an endo asap. Realistically, you won't. Not saying it to be a dick but 95% of the people using gear will not see someone professional unless it is life threatening. Unfortunately, at this point, it is what it is. Everyone above has made some very valid points and have provided some very solid advice.

Now, if you cannot or choose not to see a professional then you better do the following: ******(for the record, I am not a doctor but i had a friend in a similar situation. He refused to see a doctor and we worked through it together. Now, that being said, there is no guarantee it will work for you but at the minimum you should try it and at least get blood work to confirm the progress and result).

First and foremost, I still think you should see an endo. Be honest and then also see a shrink for the mental uphill battle you will face.

However, this is the program I used for my friend he said it basically saved his life.

Stay the fuck away from clomid. You will have enough mental issues dealing with this and do not need to add any additional emotional distress.

Stay on for at least 4 to 6 more weeks (if possible)

Lower your test dosage to 250mgs ew and use a e3d inj protocol.

Hit HCG e3d @250ius for the entire 4 to 6 weeks on the same day you inj the test - discontinue the same day you discontinue the test inj

Add proviron at 50mg ed for the entire 4 to 6 weeks then drop it to 25mgs and run 1 additional week.

Approx 14 days after the last test inj hit the nolvadex at 20mgs ed (btw, there is no proof that 40mgs is better than 20 - it actually boils down to time and steady state serum levels) and run it for 12 to 16 weeks.

During PCT you want to take the following products to help with positive feelings and stress relief rescue sleep and rescue remedy made by bach. This shit works wonders. You can also add in St john's wort. You should keep training, keep eating well and sleep at least 8 hrs a day.

Blood work once a month to confirm your progress. Do not stop the nolvadex until you at least get blood work completed.

It took my friend 4 months to recover completely. He had been on for more than 5 yrs with no hcg, ever and he used serious compounds at some stupid doses. I know this protocol worked for him because he had the blood work once a month to prove it was working.

I haven't spoken to him in a long while but I know he is doing well and he was able to father 3 kids with his wife. If I can get in touch with him and persuade him to join the board, he will vouch for this protocol.

I wish you the best of luck but would prefer you see someone profession.

May I ask, with no negativity or ill will whatsoever, who you are? Are you a doctor or a bodybuilder/powerlifter? I think your post started out well and then went right down the crapper. He doesn't need to stay on for another month and a half and Proviron is a mild AR receptor agonist similar to var and will be further suppressive. This guy's trying to get off and you just recommended stacking him back up! The HCG will raise his testosterone levels somewhat without actually taking test and he should probably use a low dose everyday for a full month. He should also be more concerned with his test/estro ratio than just test which would call for a lipid friendly AI like aromasin along with tamoxifen for their LH and FSH stimulating effects and reduction of SHBG.

See what just happened? Now we both did exactly what we set out not to do and that is give him amateur advice without knowing a single thing about this guy with 1 post.

Pi · May 31, 2008

OuchThatHurts said:
May I ask, with no negativity or ill will whatsoever, who you are? Are you a doctor or a bodybuilder/powerlifter? I think your post started out well and then went right down the crapper. He doesn't need to stay on for another month and a half and Proviron is a mild AR receptor agonist similar to var and will be further suppressive. This guy's trying to get off and you just recommended stacking him back up! The HCG will raise his testosterone levels somewhat without actually taking test and he should probably use a low dose everyday for a full month. He should also be more concerned with his test/estro ratio than just test which would call for a lipid friendly AI like aromasin along with tamoxifen for their LH and FSH stimulating effects and reduction of SHBG.

See what just happened? Now we both did exactly what we set out not to do and that is give him amateur advice without knowing a single thing about this guy with 1 post.

Thank you for your post. Breaking the cycle of steroid addiction is very hard. I definitly do not want to do a slow taper of test (I tried that and felt like shit). I have permenant vision problems from clomid. If people could back off on the clomid I would appreciate it. I see trails and flashing after images in bad light so you can imagine how much fun driving at night is.
I dont want to take HCG because although it would get my nuts big its not a substitute for endogenous LH and would likely just suppress me further (just my opinion - I know a lot of guys like HCG)

I agree that anavar is suppressive however I have found multiple studies that show it is not suppressive in the dosages I will use. Here is one study

The effect of oxandrolone on the endocrinologic, inflammatory, and hypermetabolic responses during the acute phase postburn.Jeschke MG, Finnerty CC, Suman OE, Kulp G, Mlcak RP, Herndon DN.
Shriners Hospital for Children, and Department of Surgery, University Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE AND SUMMARY BACKGROUND DATA: Postburn long-term oxandrolone treatment improves hypermetabolism and body composition. The effects of oxandrolone on clinical outcome, body composition, endocrine system, and inflammation during the acute phase postburn in a large prospective randomized single-center trial have not been studied. METHODS: Burned children (n = 235) with >40% total body surface area burn were randomized (block randomization 4:1) to receive standard burn care (control, n = 190) or standard burn care plus oxandrolone for at least 7 days (oxandrolone 0.1 mg/kg body weight q.12 hours p.o, n = 45). Clinical parameters, body composition, serum hormones, and cytokine expression profiles were measured throughout acute hospitalization. Statistical analysis was performed by Student t test, or ANOVA followed by Bonferroni correction with significance accepted at P < 0.05. RESULTS: Demographics and clinical data were similar in both groups. Length of intensive care unit stay was significantly decreased in oxandrolone-treated patients (0.48 +/- 0.02 days/% burn) compared with controls (0.56 +/- 0.02 days/% burn), (P < 0.05). Control patients lost 8 +/- 1% of their lean body mass (LBM), whereas oxandrolone-treated patients had preserved LBM (+9 +/- 4%), P < 0.05. Oxandrolone significantly increased serum prealbumin, total protein, testosterone, and AST/ALT, whereas it significantly decreased alpha2-macroglobulin and complement C3, P < 0.05. Oxandrolone did not adversely affect the endocrine and inflammatory response as we found no significant differences in the hormone panels and cytokine expression profiles. CONCLUSIONS: In this large prospective, double-blinded, randomized single-center study, oxandrolone shortened length of acute hospital stay, maintained LBM, improved body composition and hepatic protein synthesis while having no adverse effects on the endocrine axis postburn, but was associated with an increase in AST and ALT.

There are more if people need more convincing. To the person that was shut down after 3 days I have to ask, did you take more then .1mg/kg?

If anyone disagrees with this (ie if they can find opposing papers, please post them). If anyone has had bloodwork done that disagrees with this, please post that too.

BTW the dosage used in this study works out to 10mg for me (210 pound guy). So at 10mg there was no effect on testosterone on these burn patients. Imagine what 2mg or 1 mg will do.

AWN2004 · Jun 1, 2008

Pi said:
Thank you for your post. Breaking the cycle of steroid addiction is very hard. I definitly do not want to do a slow taper of test (I tried that and felt like shit). I have permenant vision problems from clomid. If people could back off on the clomid I would appreciate it. I see trails and flashing after images in bad light so you can imagine how much fun driving at night is.
I dont want to take HCG because although it would get my nuts big its not a substitute for endogenous LH and would likely just suppress me further (just my opinion - I know a lot of guys like HCG)

I agree that anavar is suppressive however I have found multiple studies that show it is not suppressive in the dosages I will use. Here is one study

The effect of oxandrolone on the endocrinologic, inflammatory, and hypermetabolic responses during the acute phase postburn.Jeschke MG, Finnerty CC, Suman OE, Kulp G, Mlcak RP, Herndon DN.
Shriners Hospital for Children, and Department of Surgery, University Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE AND SUMMARY BACKGROUND DATA: Postburn long-term oxandrolone treatment improves hypermetabolism and body composition. The effects of oxandrolone on clinical outcome, body composition, endocrine system, and inflammation during the acute phase postburn in a large prospective randomized single-center trial have not been studied. METHODS: Burned children (n = 235) with >40% total body surface area burn were randomized (block randomization 4:1) to receive standard burn care (control, n = 190) or standard burn care plus oxandrolone for at least 7 days (oxandrolone 0.1 mg/kg body weight q.12 hours p.o, n = 45). Clinical parameters, body composition, serum hormones, and cytokine expression profiles were measured throughout acute hospitalization. Statistical analysis was performed by Student t test, or ANOVA followed by Bonferroni correction with significance accepted at P < 0.05. RESULTS: Demographics and clinical data were similar in both groups. Length of intensive care unit stay was significantly decreased in oxandrolone-treated patients (0.48 +/- 0.02 days/% burn) compared with controls (0.56 +/- 0.02 days/% burn), (P < 0.05). Control patients lost 8 +/- 1% of their lean body mass (LBM), whereas oxandrolone-treated patients had preserved LBM (+9 +/- 4%), P < 0.05. Oxandrolone significantly increased serum prealbumin, total protein, testosterone, and AST/ALT, whereas it significantly decreased alpha2-macroglobulin and complement C3, P < 0.05. Oxandrolone did not adversely affect the endocrine and inflammatory response as we found no significant differences in the hormone panels and cytokine expression profiles. CONCLUSIONS: In this large prospective, double-blinded, randomized single-center study, oxandrolone shortened length of acute hospital stay, maintained LBM, improved body composition and hepatic protein synthesis while having no adverse effects on the endocrine axis postburn, but was associated with an increase in AST and ALT.

There are more if people need more convincing. To the person that was shut down after 3 days I have to ask, did you take more then .1mg/kg?

If anyone disagrees with this (ie if they can find opposing papers, please post them). If anyone has had bloodwork done that disagrees with this, please post that too.

BTW the dosage used in this study works out to 10mg for me (210 pound guy). So at 10mg there was no effect on testosterone on these burn patients. Imagine what 2mg or 1 mg will do.

I'm qurious to know why you think HCG is such a bad idea? You have in theory put your "nuts to sleep" and you need to wake them up again. You have to get some Leydig cell stimulation going on or else its going to be a hard road. I guess my question is, how do you plan on restoring your own production with other anabolics? What happens when you run out of Anavar? Do you think your body is just going to decide to start producing again after four years without a jump start? From what I can gather, it sounds like you really concerned about losing size and not focusing on getting your body back to normal. I'm not trying to argue with you either. I am just trying to figure out why or how you think you are going to get your own bodies natural production back to normal or close to normal.

deltaguy · Jun 1, 2008

OuchThatHurts said:
May I ask, with no negativity or ill will whatsoever, who you are? Are you a doctor or a bodybuilder/powerlifter? I think your post started out well and then went right down the crapper. He doesn't need to stay on for another month and a half and Proviron is a mild AR receptor agonist similar to var and will be further suppressive. This guy's trying to get off and you just recommended stacking him back up! The HCG will raise his testosterone levels somewhat without actually taking test and he should probably use a low dose everyday for a full month. He should also be more concerned with his test/estro ratio than just test which would call for a lipid friendly AI like aromasin along with tamoxifen for their LH and FSH stimulating effects and reduction of SHBG.

See what just happened? Now we both did exactly what we set out not to do and that is give him amateur advice without knowing a single thing about this guy with 1 post.

Nope, not a doctor and no ill feelings here.

I was just conveying what my friend did to come back after 5 yrs of non-stop abuse of aas. My friend tried to do exactly what Pi has done 3 or 4 times. He had great difficulty due to the mental challenges. The lowering of the test dose for an additional 4 weeks wasn't intended for anything other than a slow taper while he is using the HCG to stimulate his natural test production. I just think 250iu ed for a month could be over kill which can have negative sides such as HCG induced gyno. It happens and this is not a hurdle I wanted to add to his long list of potential issues. The idea that I was stacking him back up is a bit much really. Proviron is a very weak aas, I think calling it mild is a bit strong especially at those doses. The only reason I suggested it is due to the wonders it has for a subject mentally as well as sexually. That alone is half his battle. If he can kick that part in the ass and move on in a positive manner while kick starting his natural test production he can possibly beat this issue sooner than later.

Nevertheless, this protocol worked for my friend. I read Pi's posts and immediately noticed very similar traits between him and my friend. I felt obligated to share my friend's issues and experience. I would have felt guilty had I not.

Jarconis · Jun 1, 2008

you are better off doing some research and doing a IGF/peg mgf combo in your pct, this is give you that fullness and pump you had when you are on and still let your hpta recover

OuchThatHurts · Jun 1, 2008

deltaguy said:
Nope, not a doctor and no ill feelings here.

I was just conveying what my friend did to come back after 5 yrs of non-stop abuse of aas. My friend tried to do exactly what Pi has done 3 or 4 times. He had great difficulty due to the mental challenges. The lowering of the test dose for an additional 4 weeks wasn't intended for anything other than a slow taper while he is using the HCG to stimulate his natural test production. I just think 250iu ed for a month could be over kill which can have negative sides such as HCG induced gyno. It happens and this is not a hurdle I wanted to add to his long list of potential issues. The idea that I was stacking him back up is a bit much really. Proviron is a very weak aas, I think calling it mild is a bit strong especially at those doses. The only reason I suggested it is due to the wonders it has for a subject mentally as well as sexually. That alone is half his battle. If he can kick that part in the ass and move on in a positive manner while kick starting his natural test production he can possibly beat this issue sooner than later.

Nevertheless, this protocol worked for my friend. I read Pi's posts and immediately noticed very similar traits between him and my friend. I felt obligated to share my friend's issues and experience. I would have felt guilty had I not.

Well that's good that your conscience is clear and you don't feel guilty. You mention gyno induced by HCG yet you are perfectly fine with keeping someone on T, Proviron, with HCG too? I'm sorry but that makes zero sense. Do you think HCG itself causes gyno? HCG may raise your body's production of test and the test converting to estrogen may cause gyno but certainly nowhere near the levels of 200-400mg of test with HCG included. But you think daily HCG could be overkill? You think. And calling Proviron mild is a bit strong? What would you prefer I call it? Super-mild? It's a DHT derived AAS with a weak binding affinity to the AR. It's an androgen. My thoughts on PCT are to get your body off external androgens and back online as soon as possible and continually assess the situation. I don't believe staying on T, Proviron, with HCG is the best way to do that. I'm glad it helped your friend though.

Just remember too that even in studies where Proviron showed to not be suppressive in subjects with normal HPTA function, these studies said nothing about an individual with an already suppressed HPTA. What do you suppose an already suppressed HPTA is going to do in the presence of an externally administered androgen? Even a super-duper-weak one?

pumpd · Jun 2, 2008

Bump, I have a friend who has been on for 5 years now at around 350mg of test a week and well his wife wants a child so he's kinda of freaking out. My questions is for him, other then pct protocol which I've seen about 20 different ones, which other otc products could you use to even help a bit to try and keep some of your gains.....any suggestions would be appreciated.