Post workout shake = Myth?

[KillerStack]

Liquid nutrition is a good idea to start recovering from the workout, especially if you haven't eaten for several hours before the workout. I like a glass of milk or chocolate milk. Or why not a can of coke like Cutler lol. But really, the important thing is to just get the food in, in proper amounts each day. This micromanaging of bcaa here and waxy maize there is a crock of shit IMO. Neither of these supplements are bad but you can get the same effect from whole foods. Sometimes supplements are just more convenient.

What did Coleman do in his video? He drove to a restaurant still in his workout clothes.

 

[terryd5150]

BB.com, huh....

That was back when I was listening to the idiots over at BB.com. I had JUST started caring about my diet as I knew nothing beforehand about it. Just thought shit load of food = shit load of muscle.

Now I know better. May seem obvious to us but really to a lot of people it isn't.

That explains a lot of it. LOL.


Well, welcome to a real bodybuilding forum. I'm sure you'll enjoy your stay.

 

[JohnnyPro]

The supplement companies would have you believe you need a protein shake right after your workout for maximum growth. I believe if you are eating 6 meals a day and getting all your necessary macros everything balances out.

 

[gyno]

Some of you guys kill me with this stuff. I think the thing that the majority of you are missing when it comes to PWO nutrition is this (and I think DatBtrue would agree with me)...INSULIN.

Also, big MATT, you seem to post threads, ask questions, wait for people to respond, and then go on these HUGE tyrades about how what you believe is correct. Dude, why don't you post a thread with your opinions being stated first, before anyone else has a chance to support your presuppositions.

 

[illwill]

Im not certain that a specific number of grams needs to be met as far as grams per lb of bodyweight. As long as it is fast digesting like dextrose at least 20-30 grams should suffice. I think I just found a new subject good for a couple of hours of research tonight. How many grams of sugar does it take to illicit an insulin response............ Hmmmm................

Any luck on your research?

 

[dalvare1]

Any luck on your research?

you dont need carbohydrates to raise insulin levels...

 

[Johnny Thrust]

Any luck on your research?

Nope. Most of what I found was quite vague and didnt deal with BBing protocols. I was able to make a conclusion based on the current supplement manufacturers and their dosage recommendations however. I just dont feel that relying on the supplement industry for solid facts and honesty for that matter is a solid foundation but it appears that 25-25 grams of dextrose is a good starting point. And yes, You DONT need Dextrose, Sucrose or any other "sugar" to raise insulin. I believe that insulin is elevated for 2-3 hours after you eat a balanced meal. Thats not what Im trying to achieve however. I am trying to spike insulin post workout to enhance the effects of GHRP/GHRH with out eating. I have been using a dextrose creatine mix that has all the essential BCAAs Glutamine etc. This seems to be doing the trick. As I am currently on a very restricted cutting diet, I just want the minimum amount of drink post workout to get the job done.

 

[ziimo]

Nope. Most of what I found was quite vague and didnt deal with BBing protocols. I was able to make a conclusion based on the current supplement manufacturers and their dosage recommendations however. I just dont feel that relying on the supplement industry for solid facts and honesty for that matter is a solid foundation but it appears that 25-25 grams of dextrose is a good starting point. And yes, You DONT need Dextrose, Sucrose or any other "sugar" to raise insulin. I believe that insulin is elevated for 2-3 hours after you eat a balanced meal. Thats not what Im trying to achieve however. I am trying to spike insulin post workout to enhance the effects of GHRP/GHRH with out eating. I have been using a dextrose creatine mix that has all the essential BCAAs Glutamine etc. This seems to be doing the trick. As I am currently on a very restricted cutting diet, I just want the minimum amount of drink post workout to get the job done.

Won't whey alone elevate insulin?

 

[iprimate]

Nope.

Hope this is useful to you. The references should answer most of your questions if the post itself doesn't.

 

[Lou]

Do you neccesary have to drink a PWO shake? Nope. Does it makes a difference eating solid food and drinking a mix of carbs/protein shake? Maybe.

Leucine is an essential aminoacid that has shown to promote protein synthesis and enhance muscle recovery after exercise. Carbohydrates promote muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise, and spike insulin, which also triggers muscle synthesis (also keep in mind the GLUT4 overexpression following exercise).
So, if you take a solution containing appropiate levels of leucine (plus other EAAs and BCAAs) and fast acting high GI carbohydrates you're promoting protein synthesis (both dependent and independent of mTOR) and fast glycogen synthesis. Which food has the best leucine content? Whey protein isolate. Sure that solid food such as beef, chicken or fish have a high leucine content, but whey protein is also absorbed faster (this is the only time of the day that i find useful to use WPI).

I think PWO is the BEST time to take advantage of an insulin spike, dieting or not.

 

[b-boy]

Do you neccesary have to drink a PWO shake? Nope. Does it makes a difference eating solid food and drinking a mix of carbs/protein shake? Maybe.

Leucine is an essential aminoacid that has shown to promote protein synthesis and enhance muscle recovery after exercise. Carbohydrates promote muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise, and spike insulin, which also triggers muscle synthesis (also keep in mind the GLUT4 overexpression following exercise).
So, if you take a solution containing appropiate levels of leucine (plus other EAAs and BCAAs) and fast acting high GI carbohydrates you're promoting protein synthesis (both dependent and independent of mTOR) and fast glycogen synthesis. Which food has the best leucine content? Whey protein isolate. Sure that solid food such as beef, chicken or fish have a high leucine content, but whey protein is also absorbed faster (this is the only time of the day that i find useful to use WPI).

I think PWO is the BEST time to take advantage of an insulin spike, dieting or not.

NICE!

 

[LATS]

i believe in the post workout shake.. but, i think many guys take in way too many carbs after.. i see these guys taking in 100 grams of carbs right after.. do you really think you burnt up that many "carbs" in a hour workout?.. most dont.. (i take in 50 grams of whey protein and 40 grams of carbs )usually mini wheats.. not saying i am right but, when i was going carb crazy after workouts my arms grew.. but my gut did too.. and not proportionally

 

[bigguns078]

i believe in the post workout shake.. but, i think many guys take in way too many carbs after.. i see these guys taking in 100 grams of carbs right after.. do you really think you burnt up that many "carbs" in a hour workout?.. most dont.. (i take in 50 grams of whey protein and 40 grams of carbs )usually mini wheats.. not saying i am right but, when i was going carb crazy after workouts my arms grew.. but my gut did too.. and not proportionally

I tried to figure out how many calories are burned during 75 minutes of vigorous weight lifting.. According to this site: http://www.internetfitness.com/calculators/calburncalc.htm
At 240lbs i would burn 864 calories.. So if we say i burned all glycogen.. That would be 216 grams of carbs... Do i need to replenish this much over my postworkout shake and my postworkout meal?? What if i ate 350 grams of carbs throughout the day prior to my workout?? Would that mean i only need 134 grams to fill glycogen stores???

 

[Johnny Thrust]

One particularly interesting study, “Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.” (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206), compared the anabolic responses to a carbohydrate and amino acid supplement taken either before or after resistance exercise. It’s counterintuitive to think taking in these nutrients before the workout is superior to post-workout, but according to this small study:

“…results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution [carb/amino acid drink] immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis...”

Since this study was published, several researchers have proposed that providing amino acids/protein and carbs both before and after a resistance workout represents the best of both worlds. This is the premise of the book “Nutrient Timing” by John Ivy and Robert Portman. They present compelling evidence that the right mixture of nutrients, taken at key points in the muscle growth cycle, will optimize improvements in muscle growth, strength, and power, as well as enhance recovery from exercise.

 

[isoc]

i believe in the post workout shake.. but, i think many guys take in way too many carbs after.. i see these guys taking in 100 grams of carbs right after.. do you really think you burnt up that many "carbs" in a hour workout?.. most dont.. (i take in 50 grams of whey protein and 40 grams of carbs )usually mini wheats.. not saying i am right but, when i was going carb crazy after workouts my arms grew.. but my gut did too.. and not proportionally

This is truth to me. I see a lot of people, mostly other boards, who fall into the cateogry of approximately 5'10" 190 lbs saying they need 4000 calories+ to bulk, and a large portion of them carbs, and they are not taking the sort of "supps", nor have the competitive goals to warrant that. Now a very few, may have the crazy fast metabolism, but most are kidding themselves, you should read some of the stuff eaten post workout, with the excuse of "hey I am on a bulk", they eat like fat guy who doesnt care at all about his appearance, or health. Then they come back and update with "I have gained 10 lbs in the past 2 weeks, sure I have gone up 2 waist sizes, but my bench has increased 10 lbs"

 

[Johnny Thrust]

This is truth to me. I see a lot of people, mostly other boards, who fall into the cateogry of approximately 5'10" 190 lbs saying they need 4000 calories+ to bulk, and a large portion of them carbs, and they are not taking the sort of "supps", nor have the competitive goals to warrant that. Now a very few, may have the crazy fast metabolism, but most are kidding themselves, you should read some of the stuff eaten post workout, with the excuse of "hey I am on a bulk", they eat like fat guy who doesnt care at all about his appearance, or health. Then they come back and update with "I have gained 10 lbs in the past 2 weeks, sure I have gone up 2 waist sizes, but my bench has increased 10 lbs"

HEY !!! Im 5'10" 190lbs !!! LOL !!! Too funny. I also have a 30" waist and 18" arms. I agree on the fact that there is a mass majority of BB noobs who use the bathroom scale to measure their progress. "I gained 20lbs so I must be doing something right" I dont think most of these folks have even heard of body fat calipers. I average from 2500 to 3000 with low carbs when I am using "supps" to put on some size due to the fact that I learned long ago that more is not better. (For me anyways.) I think people should try and ascertain what is the MiniMuM amount neccessary to achieve their goals and go from there.

 

[morphysique]

good

 

[Obnoxious123]

Whey protein is a supplemental protein source often used by athletes, particularly those aiming to gain muscle mass; however, direct evidence for its efficacy in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is lacking. We aimed to determine the impact of consuming whey protein on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the post-exercise period. Eight healthy resistance-trained young men (age=21+/-1 .0 years; BMI=26.8+/-0.9 kg/m2 (means+/-SE)) participated in a double-blind randomized crossover trial in which they performed a unilateral leg resistance exercise workout (EX: 4 sets of knee extensions and 4 sets of leg press; 8-10 repetitions/set; 80% of maximal), such that one leg was not exercised and acted as a rested (RE) comparator. After exercise, subjects consumed either an isoenergetic whey protein plus carbohydrate beverage (WHEY: 10 g protein and 21 g fructose) or a carbohydrate-only beverage (CHO: 21 g fructose and 10 g maltodextran). Subjects received pulse-tracer injections of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine and L-[15N]phenylalanine to measure MPS. Exercise stimulated a rise in MPS in the WHEY-EX and CHO-EX legs, which were greater than MPS in the WHEY-RE leg and the CHO-RE leg (all p<0.05), respectively. The rate of MPS in the WHEY-EX leg was greater than in the CHO-EX leg (p<0.001). We conclude that a small dose (10 g) of whey protein with carbohydrate (21 g) can stimulate a rise in MPS after resistance exercise in trained young men that would be supportive of a positive net protein balance, which, over time, would lead to hypertrophy.

Minimal whey protein with carbohydrate stimulates ...[Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result

Nine male, endurance-trained cyclists performed an interval workout followed by 4 h of recovery, and a subsequent endurance trial to exhaustion at 70% VO2max, on three separate days. Immediately following the first exercise bout and 2 h of recovery, subjects drank isovolumic amounts of chocolate milk, fluid replacement drink (FR), or carbohydrate replacement drink (CR), in a single-blind, randomized design. Carbohydrate content was equivalent for chocolate milk and CR. Time to exhaustion (TTE), average heart rate (HR), rating of perceived exertion (RPE), and total work (WT) for the endurance exercise were compared between trials. TTE and WT were significantly greater for chocolate milk and FR trials compared to CR trial. The results of this study suggest that chocolate milk is an effective recovery aid between two exhausting exercise bouts.

Chocolate milk as a post-exercise recovery aid. [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006] - PubMed Result

PURPOSE: Some studies report greater muscle hypertrophy during resistance exercise (RE) training from supplement timing (i.e., the strategic consumption of protein and carbohydrate before and/or after each workout). However, no studies have examined whether this strategy provides greater muscle hypertrophy or strength development compared with supplementation at other times during the day. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of supplement timing compared with supplementation in the hours not close to the workout on muscle-fiber hypertrophy, strength, and body composition during a 10-wk RE program. METHODS: In a single-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of two groups; the PRE-POST group consumed a supplement (1 g x kg(-1) body weight) containing protein/creatine/glucose immediately before and after RE. The MOR-EVE group consumed the same dose of the same supplement in the morning and late evening. All assessments were completed the week before and after 10 wk of structured, supervised RE training. Assessments included strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, creatine (Cr), and glycogen content. RESULTS: PRE-POST demonstrated a greater (P < 0.05) increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength in two of three assessments. The changes in body composition were supported by a greater (P < 0.05) increase in CSA of the type II fibers and contractile protein content. PRE-POST supplementation also resulted in higher muscle Cr and glycogen values after the training program (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Supplement timing represents a simple but effective strategy that enhances the adaptations desired from RE-training.

Effects of supplement timing and resistance exerci...[Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006] - PubMed Result

These all point to the same thing - protein WITH carbs is better than either one alone

 

[EasyEJL]

Minimal whey protein with carbohydrate stimulates ...[Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result


Chocolate milk as a post-exercise recovery aid. [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006] - PubMed Result


Effects of supplement timing and resistance exerci...[Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006] - PubMed Result

These all point to the same thing - protein WITH carbs is better than either one alone

No, they dont. The first one makes no such claim - just that you get more muscle protein synthesis when you take protein in than when you dont. The second one only shows better recovery with protein/carbs from chocolate milk than carbs or water alone, and the third only used protein + carbs together to show that timing can be a valuable strategy.

Did you even actually read them before posting that?

 

[zaosha]

PWO nutrition is pointless for most of us.

The studies showing a big impact are generally done in a fasted state. So, if you train first thing in the AM before eating, then some fast-digesting carbs/protein might matter - otherwise there is no real demonstrable benefit.

Consume a meal with protein within an hour or two both pre- and post-workout and you are golden.

As far as the insulin spike being super anabolic/anti-catabolic... It's a load of horseshit meant to sell overpriced dextrose-based (or w/e the new ultra-fast absorbing carb they are hyping) products. Less than 30 grams of protein - and not one gram of carbohydrate - is sufficient to raise insulin levels to the point where anabolic/anti-catabolic effects are maximized.

-zaosha