Prolactin...what to do what to do...

[littlefoot]

So I hope this can be a quality contribution to the board. I've tried to compile as much information as I can for you guys.

Prolactin is a hormone found in both males and females. For bodybuilders, certain substances taken in can increase prolactin to abnormal levels resulting in male lactatation and gynocomastia. Please note, prolactin is important to the human body, just as estrogen is. Bodybuilders know that estrogen is not the enemy and we don't often want almost >none< circulating through our bodies as that's bad for business...in this same way, prolactin does have importance and crushing it constantly could certainly be a negative thing.

However, decreasing artificially eleveated prolactin levels via certain cycles and choosing which drugs will work in decreasing these levels are key points to consider.

So what are the options...Caber, Bromo, Praimi...some people even like vitamin B6 or L-Dopa. Let's really look at some of them.

I've been reading about all three of these substances for a long time and I've not seen a lot of real answers or blood work done...just...hey my bro took caber and he's livin' laaaarge nawimeanmafugga? So after reading study after study and going from post to post in this forum, here's what I found. Would love more opinions and blood work...note, I think ultimately a helpful opinion is proper bloodwork or a fully laid out experience. If someone says "I used XYZ's caber and it worked good" then that doesn't really help. Worked good for what? Prolactin, sex drive? Have you ever had prolactin issues or sexual dysfunction? Was it liquid or tablets? What dose did you take and how long did you take it for? What AAS were you using with it? Bro!

By the way, ALL anecdotal feedback that I mention was taken exclusively from sifting through threads right here at PM, so thanks to all the members just for posting in general so that I could see all the feedback.

Cabergoline (aka cabaser/dostinex) is an ergot derivative and a potent dopamine agonist. It is prescribed to patients with Parkinson's disease, hyperprolactinemia, acromegaly, among other various off label uses such as curing anorgasmia or helping combat the libido crushing effects of SSRIs.

Dose: Many bodybuilders take 0.25mg-0.5mg twice per week for a matter of weeks until gynocomastia/prolactin issues have subsided or in the interests of preventing problems from arising. Others experiment with other dosing protocols for other purposes such as the anecdotal sexual benefits. It doesn't matter whether it's taken with or without food with regards to absorption however taking with food might limit nausea.

Half-life: 63-69 hours. High oral bioavailability but exact percentage TBD.

One study shows cabergoline probably does in fact lower the refractory period and increase sexual pleasure. Not a large study and not much else in terms of bloodwork/numbers but an officially recognized study showing caber DOES increase sexual pleasure and can possibly be used in the treatment of sexual disorders: Effects of acute prolactin manipulation on sexu... [J Endocrinol. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

This meta-analysis of many studies looked at 64 people suffering from a disorder called acromegaly which causes the body to produce too much GH. This can potentially be a fatal condition. It DOES show decreases in GH levels as well as IGF levels HOWEVER, the doses started at 1mg per week and were gradually increased to an average of 1.75mg per week...some taking 3.5mg per week, with one of the participants taking 7mg per week. The study suggests that caber is more powerful than bromo, with less side effects and a better dosing protocol that "avoids large fluctuations in dopamine agonist activity." We definitely need more information, **broken link removed**

It does lower prolactin levels as it is scientifically proven however it's always nice to see that in practice on young male bodybuilders. So thank you MrSaturatedFat from PM for post number 15 in the Caber thread for your bloodwork posting! http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/1543142-post15.html

Most of the other studies had similar results. Decreased GH output and IGF levels. So far:

Pros:

-Proven to decrease prolactin and shrink prolactinomas. More powerful agonist at D2 receptors than bromo.
-Effective against gynocomastia. Many PM members have experienced this.
-Anecdotally very effective at combatting tren side effects.
-Anecdotally increases sex drive and lowers refractory period with some evidence backing it.
-None of the studies showed that the serious possible side effects (heart valve damage for example) occured with the doses of 0.5-1.0mg per week and a lot of the sufferers of these conditions were already having surgeries done and suffering from major diseases (parkinsons, acromegaly, etc).
-Simple and infrequent dosing protocol due to the long half life.
-Not too many side effects.

Cons:

-Noticable decreases in GH & IGF levels noted in the studies.
-Possible rare but life threatening/altering side effects (as with mostly any drug).
-Anecdotally causes decrease in libido in some.
-Clinically and anecdotally causes lethargy and can cause nausea, dizziness, headache and stuffy nose.
-Difficult to find/expensive.
-UGL sources are unproven...causing mostly every discussion about cabergoline to become a "I bought MPs and it worked or didn't work," etc etc. The anecdotal reports are mixed and not many have done blood work or had the substance tested so we'll have to take that feedback with a grain of salt and not let this thread boil down into another..."hey...is this caber I just got for realz yo?"

Unknown:

-All studies have been using numbers from 1.75mg to 3.5mg to 7.0mg per week. It is also >possible< that GH levels and IGF levels would not take such dramatic hits with the average bodybuilders dose, especially for such a short period of time. So for a bodybuilder, one might not care about taking the hit to GH & IGF levels for 2-4 weeks to prevent or cure gyno.
-There appears to be zero evidence that liquid cabergoline is ineffective compared to a tablet form but there are many PM users who question the purity of UGLs when it comes to liquid RCs. Pharma is a safe bet.

NOTE: It is advised that if you have any type of pre-existing cardiovascular, GI, or liver conditions that you avoid taking cabergoline. It would probably be best to wait to take cabergoline If you are taking any anti-fungal medications or antibiotics as there are some contraindications there.

Further Reading:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...4764-who-here-has-used-pharm-grade-caber.html
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...um/98671-cabergoline-official-discussion.html
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabergoline"]Cabergoline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[littlefoot]

Pramipexole (aka Prami/Mirapexin/Sifrol) is a non-ergoline dopamine agonist that also lowers prolactin. It is also used for those suffering from Parkin]son's, RLS, bipolar disorder, clinical depression and fibromyalgia. Like cabergoline, an off label use is to help with the negative sexual side effects of SSRIs. I'd like to thank PM user Macro for all his contributions to this board as he is somewhat of an authority on prami and I was able to learn a lot by reading his posts.

Dose: Many users like to ramp up their dose (to avoid side effects) from .125mg eod to a "sweet spot" of .25mg-.5mg ed for a matter of weeks depending on prevention, elimination, or other purposes (like the supposed decrease in refractory period). PM users who did not ramp up often experienced the most negative side effects, however PM users who only experienced sleeplessness at low doses seemed to do better upping the dose at a faster pace however it's highly variable depending on the user. Those experiencing many side effects did better with slow/low approach to dosing. It appears that the libido enhancing effects of prami for PM users occured at doses of 0.5mg-1mg-3mg+ ed. It doesn't matter whether it's taken with or without food with regards to absorption however taking with food might limit nausea.

Half-life: 8-12 hours. 90% bioavailable (oral administration).

This study will not open, but apparently shows the effectiveness of prami in clinical trials on depression, SSRIs, and sexual side effects. Pramipexole augmentation of a selecti... [J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

It does increase your serum GH levels while concurently lowering your prolactin! Awesome! Oh wait...it's only for a few hours and cortisol increased as well. Neuroendocrine and side effect profile o... [Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI I suppose that's better than having GH levels go down like with caber. I don't think most people will notice any positive GH effects from prami, however. IGF levels were not observed in this study...it is possible that they went down as well, we simply don't know.

This study here shows prami's apparent ability to "decrease depression" in vitro: Pramipexole upregulates dopamine receptor D?... [J Pharmacol Sci. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

This study guesses that prami may help slow down neurological degeneration: Psychopharmacological neurop... [J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI This would make sense as dexpramipexole (mirro drug) was studied for that purpose.

There wasn't too much else out there as far (studies) as being for or against prami. A lot of user feedback which was mainly a mixed bag but a fair amount more positive than negative. So far:

Pros:

-Definitively lowers prolactin levels.
-No research showing decrease in GH/IGF levels.
-Research showed it did actually increase GH levels for a short time...never a bad thing.
-Effective against gynocomastia. Many PM members have experienced this.
-Anecdotally provides similar if not better sexual benefits compared to cabergoline. PM users have expressed that prami has improved their cognitive function along with their feelings of well being.
-Most side effects were observed in people suffering from other conditions (such as Parkinsons) taking a much higher dose than bodybuilders would take.
-Cheaper and easier to find.

Cons:

-Much more frequent dosing.
-GH increase in study above corresponded with an increase in cortisol...the increase did not last long...effects are likely to be nil.
-PM users have complained of being extremely tired after consuming a dose...others have complained of insomnia. Rapid heart rate and GI issues were other noted anecdotal side effects.
-Clinical side effects include ALL from cabergoline (except stuffy nose) and also include a laundry list of other clinically & anecdotally noted side effects include sedation, decreased appetite, insomnia, body aches & pain, twitching and hallucinations. Like with any drug, there comes the possibility of serious side effects. FDA is further researching whether or not hurt failure can be caused by prami.
-Has caused over-eating, compulsive gambling, and hypersexuality in people with no history of these problems. One PM member had quit smoking for 5 years and had his cravings come back while on prami.

Unknown:

-IGF levels were not measured in these studies. It's possible that lowering prolactin WILL invariably affect either GH and/or IGF levels, we simply don't know. While PM users have stated that they believe the GH increase is real due to numb hands, we can't necessarily trust a symptom of numb hands as a definitive sign of increased GH levels. Bloodwork would be much more ideal. That being said, those claims are there and are interesting to consider.
-While prolactin appears to be the main culprit behind the refractory period, the only substance that I could find with actual research backing it to show a decrease in refractory time and improved perception of sexual feelings was with cabergoline. That being said, the anecdotal evidence from PM suggests that prami might be even MORE effective at this purpose than the caber.

One forum member suffered a terrible reaction. His case was unique as far as I could find with regards to hospitalization, and controlling things like temperature, blood sugar, electrolyte balance, amount of sleep >may< have helped avoid this...that in no way means that this drug is not potent and potentially dangerous. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/51608-prami-disaster.html

NOTE: This drug has few contraindications. Those suffering from kidney disorders, psychological disorders, insomnia and other sleeping disorders are advised to see a doctor before considering pramiprexole. PM users have also noted appetite and thirst decreases so one should feel inclined to monitor that, to stay well nourished and hydrated.

Further Reading:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/44183-pramipexole-sides.html
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...733-prami-who-uses-what-your-experiences.html
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramipexole"]Pramipexole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[littlefoot]

Bromocriptine (aka Parlodel/Cycloset) is another potent dopamine agonist, an ergoline derivative that's also used to lower prolactin for prolactinemia & Parkinson's disease as well as Type II diabetes and other off label uses. This one has been around a bit longer than cabergoline as far as
these experiements go.

Dose:

.625mg to 5mg ed. This is a bit of an older one that is not used as much anymore. Absorption is not positively or negatively affected by consumption of food, however taking it with food may help combat nausea and vomiting.

Half-life:

12-14 hours (28% absorption via oral administration).
One of the studies I came across showed that bromocriptine has neuroprotective properties: Neuroprotection by bromocriptine against 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine-induced neurotoxicity in mice

This study showed the effects of bromo on decreasing prolactin and decreasing blood pressure: The effects of bromocriptine in methyldopa treated hypertension.

This study pointed to cabergoline being superior to bromocriptine for the purposes of curing hyperprolactinemia and prolactinomas: Cabergoline versus bromocriptine in the treatment ... [Pituitary. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

This study did not show much difference in sexual interest/hormone levels of bromo vs a placebo: Study of the effects of bromocriptine ... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977] - PubMed - NCBI

Pros:

-Cheap and readily available.
-Effective against prolactin/gynocomastia.
-Some improved sexual and mood side effects have been anecdotally reported.
-Showed good results, especially for cutting in vitro.

Cons:

-Better options are available. If that's all you have access to, that's ok, it does work, but some consider it to be dated.
-Based on anecdotal feedback, the risk of having side effects is greater than with prami/caber and the positive effects are not necessarily as good.
-Side effects include nausea, orthostatic hypotension, headaches, and vomiting.

NOTE: This drug is contraindicated to those with liver and/or psychotic problems, as bromocriptine can make either of them worse. People have suffered strokes and heart attacks from consumption of bromocriptine.

Further Reading: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine"]Bromocriptine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Vitamin B6 (aka pyroxidine) is a water soluble vitamin that some have claimed can help with gynocomastia. Is this true? This won't take long.

Dose:

Bodybuilders looking to decrease prolactin tend to utilize 300mg-600mg ed. Note: No research seems to back these doses except to avoid them. As mentioned this is water soluble. Very bioavailable and best taken with with water on an empty stomach but taking it with food should not abnormally affect absorption.

This study compares bromocriptine to B6 Effects of pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6)... [J Pharm Sci. 1979] - PubMed - NCBI and it does show suppression of prolactin, however it's not as powerful as bromocriptine.

Ok. So something that does not work as well as bromocriptine but has the wonderful side effect of nerve damage, loss of sensation, walking imbalance and lethargy (among other similar side effects) at doses greater than or equal to 200mg per day over time. Women experienced neurotoxicity at as little as 50mg+ per day.

This study also shows that it does increase HGH and lower prolactin after a single 300mg dose: Effect of pyridoxine on human hypoph... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1976] - PubMed - NCBI

Pros:

-Cheap readily available at any local pharmacy.

Cons:

-Potentially neurotoxic and ultimately weak & ineffective. The studies used IV B6 and not oral route which makes a big difference.
-Supplementing for a few months >will< lead to symptoms associated with nerve damage. This happened to me actually, however that damage was luckily reversible.

Unknown:

Maybe just MAYBE it can help control prolactin related sides on VERY mild cycles that might be conducive to rising prolactin levels but it's pretty much.

NOTE: Dietary supplement companies LOVE to put vitamin B6 in EVERYTHING even your BCAAs. Check your dietary supplement labels because you might be getting a TON of B6 already!

L-Dopa has been mentioned too however I cannot definitively engage in any real discussion about it. There is a study here that shows it lowers prolactin levels, HOWEVER it also shows that the prolactin levels quickly shoot back up after the effects wear off: Prolactin inhibition test with L-dopa: decrease... [J Endocrinol. 1976] - PubMed - NCBI

There are others that have been listed (l-dopa, mucuna pruriens, vitex, P5P, etc) and while some along with B6 sometimes seemingly possibly help with some prolactin related side effects, they've not been proven to stop, slow, prevent, or cure gynocomastia at all as compared to the main three drugs listed.

I hope this compilation of information was helpful. Let's get some more feedback and bloodwork and keep rolling! Remember, the main drugs I listed are substances that act on the brain and should be taken very seriously. Not that other drugs/substances bodybuilders take shouldn't be taken seriously, but these ones that directly affect the brain should be approached in a different way.

 

[pilip99]

littlefoot, thanks for posting this bro. I'm still learning about prolactin and treatment modalities; and this fits the bill perfectly. Thanks!

 

[littlefoot]

littlefoot, thanks for posting this bro. I'm still learning about prolactin and treatment modalities; and this fits the bill perfectly. Thanks!

I'm glad I could help. There's not too too much out there in terms of studies but I found all of the ones that I could and looked at posts from this forum spanning over a decade ago to see what types of opinions and facts were out there. Figured I could make a real contribution to the board that's given me so much and has done so much for so many people.

 

[triathloncoach]

.5 Prami ED. From ResearchStop. Cheap and effective

 

[littlefoot]

.5 Prami ED. From ResearchStop. Cheap and effective

Solid. I saw posts from you that were very helpful that allowed me to outline some of the pros & cons of the prami section so thank you!

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I bought Prami from a source here and have noticed no effects at all.

And this is after I was preparing myself for some after basically EVERYONE mentioned how shitty Prami was when compared to Caber...ramped mine up to .5 ED and nothing, no increased desire, no sleepless nights, nothing.


Very disappointed. My next route is going pharma-grade for sure.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

I bought Prami, took too much and made myself really sick.

 

[littlefoot]

I bought Prami from a source here and have noticed no effects at all.

And this is after I was preparing myself for some after basically EVERYONE mentioned how shitty Prami was when compared to Caber...ramped mine up to .5 ED and nothing, no increased desire, no sleepless nights, nothing.


Very disappointed. My next route is going pharma-grade for sure.

Pharma's definitely the way to go whenever possible. Did you tell the sponsor about the issue?

I bought Prami, took too much and made myself really sick.

And that's exactly what we're trying to avoid. How much did you take? For how long? How sick did you get? Did you ramp up at all or just dive into a high dose?

 

[gears]

Prami makes me feel weird as shit, scientifically speaking. I love caber, but I'm unclear on where to obtain it. MPR sells it, but I am hearing conflicting reports about the status of his business. I know he's been sick.

 

[Ehren]

Great work, Littlefoot! Thanks.

IME, Caber...all the way. So much easier and far greater benefits.
My little comparative experience...

I've been on TRT for a few years, blasts occasionally (1-2x a year for 10 weeks) and used some Tren last go-round. When I came off, I was burnt out. Totally shut down, no balls, etc. So in the interest of using the LEAST gear possible henceforth for TRT, I added in Caber to sort out the libido death that had come with the end of Tren dosing. Added to TRT, I've never felt better.

Now this is remarkable. Because I'm one of those guys who's LESS horny on cycle. E2 low or not. I've been doing this for years and years, tried every derivation of cycles and PCT, TRT.

140mg of Test E/50mg of Masteron/wk
25mg of Proviron
.25 Clomid EOD
.5mg Caber 2x a week

I'm so horny, I'm a threat to my own welfare. LOL What's more, my mind is clear and alert, sleep well even with a sick/coughing GF these days I just feel like my BP is lower, my body's more relaxed. All anecdotal, but Caber has been good to me...so...

Prami:
I've got a bottle of Prami I've been working on for 2 years!! LOL It's the one drug (of many we use in BB and many I used before BBing) that I just can't handle. Spaced out, insomnia, anxious, sexual benefits are negligible. Worst of all, constipated for 2 days after one .25mg dose. Screw that.

I look at Prami like stopping a bleed with a hot-iron...I'd only use it if it were a real emergency.

If someone ever makes a legit UG Caber, they'll make money.

 

[littlefoot]

Good feedback so far!

 

[Xenorikki]

Extremely interesting. Thanks for posting that

 

[Good Form]

lots of great info , Thanks for taking the time to post.

 

[Benballer]

I was having insomnia for Tren and I started .25mg caber 2x a week and now I sleep all thru the night only getting up once to piss.

If I take caber at night I just sleep and feel great. If I take it in the morning it feels like my head is detached from my body. So I only dose at night.

 

[TNH]

I bought Prami from a source here and have noticed no effects at all.
Very disappointed. My next route is going pharma-grade for sure.

Same happened with me. I bought research grade stuff and noticed nothing. I got Pharm grade a few months back and now I can feel the effects.

 

[NYCjuice]

great post bookmarking this
thanks

 

[sweetpotatoepie7]

Ive never used any of the ergolines... but I have and currently use L dopa and b6 and I think it works just fine definently doin the job!

 

[six.one.five]

Used .5 Prami ED from RS. Started at .25, no effects except for slight drowsiness. Bumped it to .5 and sex drive is better (towards the end of a test/tren a cycle), and it helped with what little "trensomnia" I get...really kinda just put me into my sleep. Didn't feel like I slept better, worse, longer, or shorter. I've tried Bromo and I keep some on stand-by just in case, but it makes me feel HORRIBLE. Never tried Caber, everyone I talk to gets bunk shit.