Protein intake per meal - good / bad / studies / evidence?

BrooklynBB · Sep 22, 2007

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After watching Ronnie Coleman's latest video - Relentless - and witnessing how much protein he consumes per meal, he averages around 90 grams PER SERVING!

Chad Nichols - his dietician - has him eating 90 grams of protein straight up 3 times a day during one phase of his dieting, and the other meals consist of anywhere from 70 - 80 grams of protein from food sources.

Ronnie doesn't seem to have any kidney problems, no kidney stones, nothing.

Serge Nubret claimed to have eaten between 4-5 kilograms of meat per day. That's around 8 - 11 pounds of meat A DAY - or in excess of 800 grams of protein. He also claimed to eat maybe twice a day, sometimes 3 times. That means each meal came out to around 260 grams of protein each time.

Now how is it possible after all of those years of eating that way, Serge never had a kidney issue in his life? Ronnie has been doing this for years, and without kidney issues that we know of.

The scare tactics we read about all of the web regarding high protein intakes - and I'm not only talking total intake but PER meal - suggests that we should eat only 0.9 - 1.5 grams per kilogram of bodyweight of protein per day, and maximum 30 - 50 grams per meal. Where did this information come from?

We're also told that if we take in any more than the above recommendations, we MAY suffer from things such as kidney stones and even kidney failure.

Can someone point to one case where any human being on Earth ever gave himself a kidney stone or kidney failure SOLELY from eating high amounts of protein per day or per meal? I'm not talking about those pre-disposed to such kidney conditions. I'm talking about healthy, active people who eat lots of protein per meal - such as competitive bodybuilders - who have suffered from any type of major ill effects such as stones, kidney failure or anything else severe from such intakes?

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loganb_football · Sep 22, 2007

I am by no means an expert, but when I low carb diet I take in about 50 grams of protein every two hours. I think I remember some of these studies for people who developed kidney stones were actually deficient in calcium and phospurus... But I really havent read that much into it.

big_byrd52 · Sep 22, 2007

i dont know, but i have a good friend who started working out, increased protein to about 350 grams, not that much by comparison, and he had kidney failure and almost died. the docs blamed it on increased protein. thats all i know.

i assume it is similar to alcohol cunsumption. some can det retarded on 3 beers, others can drink all day hardly show it. u have to aquaire a tolerence for high levels of both. the more u eat over time, the better ur body gets at processing it.

jayuk · Sep 23, 2007

BrooklynBB said:
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After watching Ronnie Coleman's latest video - Relentless - and witnessing how much protein he consumes per meal, he averages around 90 grams PER SERVING!

Chad Nichols - h.......................

3B

There is no conclusive evidence that high amounts of protein will cause renal failure. I have done this to death for my own research. There are\is some questionable data everywhere, but the more interesting thing I have ever seen was a study on 5g/1lb BW whereby the person consuming this only had slightly elevated values and had developed a stone....but that could mean a fair fwe other things.

If you check the leading journals you will get mixed opinion. I have been on high Protein diets 450g+ for many many 10's of months, and have NEVER had elevated renal values, and def no stones...

Jayuk

oldfella · Sep 24, 2007

If you have an existing kidney condition or kidney problems run in your family then I would think twice about ultra high protein diets. If you have no health issues then high protein will noy cause any. As Jayuk said, there is no medical eveidence linking high protein to kidney problems in healthy individuals. I try to average around 50-60gms of protein with each meal.

BrooklynBB · Sep 24, 2007

jayuk said:
3B

There is no conclusive evidence that high amounts of protein will cause renal failure. I have done this to death for my own research. There are\is some questionable data everywhere, but the more interesting thing I have ever seen was a study on 5g/1lb BW whereby the person consuming this only had slightly elevated values and had developed a stone....but that could mean a fair fwe other things.

If you check the leading journals you will get mixed opinion. I have been on high Protein diets 450g+ for many many 10's of months, and have NEVER had elevated renal values, and def no stones...

Jayuk

Thanks Jayuk.

That's what I suspected - that nothing definitive has ever been produced. But then why is that that we have to read all of these scare articles that proliferate every now and then regarding high protein intakes and kidney stones or renal failure?

Also, if it's possible and you remember the source or have it lying around somewhere, can you please post the specific study on this: "...but the more interesting thing I have ever seen was a study on 5g/1lb BW whereby the person consuming this only had slightly elevated values and had developed a stone".

Of course, as you said there are many variables. The think the most important variable is a persons activity level and why they would be taking so much protein. If you're a bodybuilder the protein will be better utilized than a sedentary individual supplementing with excess protein.

Also, Jayuk - have you come across any studies that differentiate between protein sources and possible problems? I.e, - protein powders VS. animal meat?

mike1107 · Sep 24, 2007

yeah I am with Jay on it, never seen a study that clearly said that protein intake can lead to kidney failure and been looking for it for a while

I saw one recently who was explaining why high protein diet was supposed to be that hard on kidneys, it had something to do with the amount of wasted proteins converted in uric acid (pls gimme the english name for it) but here again there was no real evidence

I believe high proteins diet's side effects are way overrated

jayuk · Sep 24, 2007

BrooklynBB said:
Thanks Jayuk.

That's what I suspected - that nothing definitive has ever been produced. But then why is that that we have to read all of these scare articles that proliferate every now and then regarding high protein intakes and kidney stones or renal failure?

Because its this same old community of "backward" thinking researchers and scientist who have based there entire reasoning on initial flawed trials.....if you follow the chain of command backwards you will see that this old chestnut goes back to the late 1960's. Its like Chinese Whispers since then, someone has concluded \ elaborated \ progressed further studies based on the original and its then been just followed down.....

Also, if it's possible and you remember the source or have it lying around somewhere, can you please post the specific study on this: "...but the more interesting thing I have ever seen was a study on 5g/1lb BW whereby the person consuming this only had slightly elevated values and had developed a stone".

I will def look for it for you and post it if I find it. The study was remote, but was done by researchers working in Renal transplantation.

Of course, as you said there are many variables. The think the most important variable is a persons activity level and why they would be taking so much protein. If you're a bodybuilder the protein will be better utilized than a sedentary individual supplementing with excess protein.

This is my point. BUT, you know there is still flawed data being quoted in Schools, and also PT Training bodies. They all quote this 0.8g RDS on protein, and then put alimit of 1.5g / kg....but what they never fail to mention or address is the impact on the body of those that do put there body through high amounts of stress. If I take one of my legs (quads) and then train on a unilateral leg extension machine and take it to failure for 10 sets of 10 reps and then take samples from this leg and compare it to my other untrained leg.....what do you think will require more nutrients to recover?.....(Not aimed at you..but a comment I make to these so called experts)

Also, Jayuk - have you come across any studies that differentiate between protein sources and possible problems? I.e, - protein powders VS. animal meat?

All the data that I have seen when it comes to sources is the time it takes to break down and get amino acids into the blood stream. "hard foods" obv take longer and also some of the protein does get lost in digestion etc; but in terms of impact on Renal, its going to be less damaging "in theory" as you dont get the full extent of the amino acids at one time (like protein shakes etc). But again, this doesnt mean its bad...as again, theres no data to support this...

Some quotes

For the past half century or so scientists using crude methods and poor study design with sedentary people have held firm to the belief that bodybuilders, strength athletes of various types, runners, and other highly active people did not require any more protein than Mr. Potato Head.....err, I mean the average couch potato.

However, In the past few decades researchers using better study designs and methods with real live athletes have come to a different conclusion altogether, a conclusion hard training bodybuilders have known for years. The fact that active people do indeed require far more protein than the RDA to keep from losing hard earned muscle tissue when dieting or increasing muscle tissue during the off season.

In a recent review paper on the subject one of the top researchers in the field (Dr. Peter Lemon) states "...These data suggest that the RDA for those engaged in regular endurance exercise should be about 1.2-1.4 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass (150%-175% of the current RDA) and 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass per day (212%-225% of the current RDA) for strength exercisers."

Another group of researchers in the field of protein metabolism have come to similar conclusions repeatedly. They found that strength training athletes eating approximately the RDA/RNI for protein showed a decreased whole body protein synthesis (losing muscle jack!) on a protein intake of 0.86 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. They came to an almost identical conclusion as that of Dr. Lemon in recommending at least 1.76g per kilogram of bodyweight per day for strength training athletes for staying in positive nitrogen balance/increases in whole body protein synthesis.

This same group found in later research that endurance athletes also need far more protein than the RDA/RNI and that men catabolize (break down) more protein than women during endurance exercise.

They concluded "In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than sedentary individuals and are above the current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males." All I can say to that is, no sh%# Sherlock?!

Now lets assume the bodybuilder does not want to eat so many carbs. Now the high carb issue is an entirely different fight and article, so I am just not going to go into great depth on the topic here. Suffice it to say, anyone who regularly reads articles, books, etc, from people such as Dan Duchaine, Dr. Mauro Dipasquale, Barry Sears PhD, Udo Erasmus PhD, yours truly, and others know why the high carb diet bites the big one for losing fat and gaining muscle (In fact, there is recent research that suggests that carbohydrate restriction, not calorie restriction per se, is what's responsible for mobilizing fat stores).

Bottom line? High protein diets are far better for reducing bodyfat, increasing muscle mass, and helping the hard training bodybuilder achieve his (or her!) goals, and it is obvious that endurance athletes will also benefit from diets higher in protein than the worthless and outdated RDAs.

Myth #2 "High protein diets are bad for you"

So the average person reads the above information on the protein needs and benefits of a high protein diet but remembers in the back of their mind another myth about high protein intakes. "I thought high protein diets are bad for the kidneys and will give you osteoporosis!" they exclaim with conviction and indignation. So what are the medical facts behind these claims and why do so many people, including some medical professionals and nutritionists, still believe it?

For starters, the negative health claims of the high protein diet on kidney function is based on information gathered from people who have preexisting kidney problems. You see one of the jobs of the kidneys is the excretion of urea (generally a non toxic compound) that is formed from ammonia (a very toxic compound) which comes from the protein in our diets. People with serious kidney problems have trouble excreting the urea placing more stress on the kidneys and so the logic goes that a high protein diet must be hard on the kidneys for healthy athletes also.

Now for the medical and scientific facts. There is not a single scientific study published in a reputable peer - reviewed journal using healthy adults with normal kidney function that has shown any kidney dysfunction what so ever from a high protein diet. Not one of the studies done with healthy athletes that I mentioned above, or other research I have read, has shown any kidney abnormalities at all. Furthermore, animals studies done using high protein diets also fail to show any kidney dysfunction in healthy animals.

Now don't forget, in the real world, where millions of athletes have been following high protein diets for decades, there has never been a case of kidney failure in a healthy athlete that was determined to have been caused solely by a high protein diet. If the high protein diet was indeed putting undo stress on our kidneys, we would have seen many cases of kidney abnormalities, but we don't nor will we.

From a personal perspective as a trainer for many top athletes from various sports, I have known bodybuilders eating considerably more than the above research recommends (above 600 grams a day) who showed no kidney dysfunction or kidney problems and I personally read the damn blood tests! Bottom line? 1-1.5 grams or protein per pound of bodyweight will have absolutely no ill effects on the kidney function of a healthy athlete, period. Now of course too much of anything can be harmful and I suppose it's possible a healthy person could eat enough protein over a long enough period of time to effect kidney function, but it is very unlikely and has yet to be shown in the scientific literature in healthy athletes.

So what about the osteoporosis claim? That's a bit more complicated but the conclusion is the same. The pathology of osteoporosis involves a combination of many risk factors and physiological variables such as macro nutrient intakes (carbs, proteins, fats), micro nutrient intakes (vitamins, minerals, etc), hormonal profiles, lack of exercise, gender, family history, and a few others.

The theory is that high protein intakes raise the acidity of the blood and the body must use minerals from bone stores to "buffer" the blood and bring the blood acidity down, thus depleting one's bones of minerals. Even if there was a clear link between a high protein diet and osteoporosis in all populations (and there is not) athletes have few of the above risk factors as they tend to get plenty of exercise, calories, minerals, vitamins, and have positive hormonal profiles.

Fact of the matter is, studies have shown athletes to have denser bones than sedentary people, there are millions of athletes who follow high protein diets without any signs of premature bone loss, and we don't have ex athletes who are now older with higher rates of osteoporosis.

In fact, one recent study showed women receiving extra protein from a protein supplement had increased bone density over a group not getting the extra protein! The researchers theorized this was due to an increase in IGF-1 levels which are known to be involved in bone growth.

Would I recommend a super high protein diet to some sedentary post menopausal woman? Probably not, but we are not talking about her, we are talking about athletes. Bottom line? A high protein diet does not lead to osteoporosis in healthy athletes with very few risk factors for this affliction, especially in the ranges of protein intake that have been discussed throughout this article.

Jayuk

jayuk · Sep 24, 2007

mike1107 said:
yeah I am with Jay on it, never seen a study that clearly said that protein intake can lead to kidney failure and been looking for it for a while

I saw one recently who was explaining why high protein diet was supposed to be that hard on kidneys, it had something to do with the amount of wasted proteins converted in uric acid (pls gimme the english name for it) but here again there was no real evidence

I believe high proteins diet's side effects are way overrated

this is true...but very easily this can be dealt with with scavengers...

The underlying point is that we have been told for decades its bad, yet we have 10,000's who have consumedd very high amounts of protein...without any obvious issues. Clearly this statement is open for ridicule as we dont know whats happened to them in later life, but I dont see a larger then normal list of renal failure cases.......interestingly enough I do see a larger then normal case of Diabetes lol....but thats a whole diff subject!

Jayuk