Some thoughts on recent post about carbs pre and intra-workout

[desibaba]

There are honestly only 3-4 guys I truly trust in the bodybuilding industry. Dante of True Protein, John Meadows and Chris Aceto and a couple more.

It seems like most people who make any kind of recommendations are trying to sell you some kind of a supplement, peptides or some "Miracle" in a bottle.

Nothing against anyone who is trying to make money but you need to decide if what they are recommending has any basis around it or is it one of those "If you want great results from my FST-7 program then you need to take all my Evogen supplements with it also".

 

[G.I.Bro]

Yes I agree with you. What the other poster said, and what I agree with, is people thinking they are going to get a SUPRAphysiological response (for GH and test) based on some food manipulation..

It's as silly as when someone says don't eat any sweet potato around your GH shot or it won't work...

It's always funny when "gurus" talk about optimal GH release, test levels, cortisol, etc. like they are writing to 15 year old natural kids in a bodybuilding mag, then defend other arguments with elite athletes on that same basis.

Nobody here gives a shit about optimal gh release or natural test levels because they are all shooting it exogenous amounts. It becomes a moot point so why even base argument points like "blunting gh release" from a natural athlete perspective. As John pointed out, natural hormone optimization through diet results in fractions of the increased SUPRAphysiological levels most elite athletes/BBs are dealing with with their PED use so it just becomes a silly argument.

Still don't know who coach P or Pxxxxx is? ;-)

 

[desibaba]

It's always funny when "gurus" talk about optimal GH release, test levels, cortisol, etc. like they are writing to 15 year old natural kids in a bodybuilding mag, then defend other arguments with elite athletes on that same basis.

Nobody here gives a shit about optimal gh release or natural test levels because they are all shooting it exogenous amounts. It becomes a moot point so why even base argument points like "blunting gh release" from a natural athlete perspective. As John pointed out, natural hormone optimization through diet results in fractions of the increased SUPRAphysiological levels most elite athletes/BBs are dealing with with their PED use so it just becomes a silly argument.

Still don't know who coach P or Pxxxxx is? ;-)

There was a guy on Muscular Development forums who paid a lot of money to Hany Rambod for his FST 7 program and contest prep. Supposedly in order for it to work the way Hany designed it you have to inject SEOs in the way he recommends it WITH The FST 7 workout program to truly stretch the fascia to increase growth. Obviously he wont talk about that on his FST 7 DVD or in his monthly articles in Muscular Development.

 

[homonunculus]

I have a three part article (just submitted part 2) coming out on peri-workout recovery supplementation that addressed some of what this person was referring to, John.

I may have just picked up a couple more things to put in part 3, I think.

-S

 

[Swifto]

I have a three part article (just submitted part 2) coming out on peri-workout recovery supplementation that addressed some of what this person was referring to, John.

I may have just picked up a couple more things to put in part 3, I think.

-S

Clear some PM's please trying to contact you.

 

[Swifto]

He has ulterior motives in everything he preaches now. If he thinks intra wo carbs will hinder you being able to load the bar, due to sleepyness etc... You should invite him down to yours John and kick his ass all over the gym, and watch him beg for a sip of your peri workout shake haha .

Like his Tribulus testosterone boosting product.

 

[homonunculus]

Clear some PM's please trying to contact you.

Sorry, man. Box cleared!

-S

 

[Knight9]

I have a three part article (just submitted part 2) coming out on peri-workout recovery supplementation that addressed some of what this person was referring to, John.

I may have just picked up a couple more things to put in part 3, I think.

-S

Where can we/be able to read these?

 

[dakota]

I am soon to be 45 and have tried about everything train powerlifting / strongman john put a diet together for me and I seen the amount of carbs intra and post with about 35 pre with a little fat now I have never been a fatass a solid 220 when I seen the amount of carbs I said no way until about two weeks in and was starving and he changed the diet by adding more carbs intra workout that's it wow lifts went through the roof I have showed some people the diet and they said no way that would work lol . I agree there is no only way but if it is ,this is it I have been training my whole life and felt so good when training until a year ago doing 300 pound farmers walk blew my calf muscle out no tendon damage but with my calf tore of and sliped disk been down and out for a year but I am back to training and will be back to eating the way john had me and not trying to brag just want to give john his due I benched 600 pounds at 236 pounds of bodyweight with a single ply earnie frantz denim back in 2000-2002 ,535 raw before I got hurt my strength was better at 228 pounds

 

[homonunculus]

Where can we/be able to read these?

Didn't mean to tease, but come to think of it, I don't know if I'm "allowed" to say... <sigh> They will be on a free site (not mine or John's) I've just started writing for, but they are not a sponsor here.

(You'll be able to see when the come out over at intensemuscle - pretty sure I can mention that - I'll post it up there for sure. 1st one is due out 10/23.)

-S

 

[desibaba]

Didn't mean to tease, but come to think of it, I don't know if I'm "allowed" to say... <sigh> They will be on a free site (not mine or John's) I've just started writing for, but they are not a sponsor here.

(You'll be able to see when the come out over at intensemuscle - pretty sure I can mention that - I'll post it up there for sure. 1st one is due out 10/23.)

-S

With all due respect what killed intensemuscle was the no steroid talk allowed mentality there a few years ago. Yes, that changed recently but the amount of members you guys lost because of that is insanely high. People werent even allowed to use the word "Steroid" and if they did it meant a Ban. They called them "Super Supplement" because whoever owns that board felt that was a more politically correct term.

 

[homonunculus]

With all due respect what killed intensemuscle was the no steroid talk allowed mentality there a few years ago. Yes, that changed recently but the amount of members you guys lost because of that is insanely high. People werent even allowed to use the word "Steroid" and if they did it meant a Ban. They called them "Super Supplement" because whoever owns that board felt that was a more politically correct term.

I wasn't trying to bring people over to intensemuscle in general. It simply occurred to me that the last time I attempted to engage more over here, I was severely censored and it generally wasn't a lot of fun. Part of the problem was insinuations that I had some financial motive, blah, blah, blah, so I was trying to avoid that and any thought someone might have if I'm over here answering questions about that article.

In retrospect, my nature to simply try to disseminate info. got the best of me here, as I probably shouldn't have said a thing and just let the info. trickle over. Just a topic that interests me a great deal.

Sorry if what intensemuscle did was upsetting. Sorry, too if I did anything to offend. Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about what John posted, not about IM.

My bust for not remembering I need to watch my step over with what I post. Apologies.

-S

 

[desibaba]

I wasn't trying to bring people over to intensemuscle in general. It simply occurred to me that the last time I attempted to engage more over here, I was severely censored and it generally wasn't a lot of fun. Part of the problem was insinuations that I had some financial motive, blah, blah, blah, so I was trying to avoid that and any thought someone might have if I'm over here answering questions about that article.

In retrospect, my nature to simply try to disseminate info. got the best of me here, as I probably shouldn't have said a thing and just let the info. trickle over. Just a topic that interests me a great deal.

Sorry if what intensemuscle did was upsetting. Sorry, too if I did anything to offend. Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about what John posted, not about IM.

My bust for not remembering I need to watch my step over with what I post. Apologies.

-S

Personally I think its awesome that we have guys like you and Dante here on Pro Muscle to say whatever they like without any censorship. A lot of people including myself want to hear what you guys have to say.

 

[homonunculus]

Personally I think its awesome that we have guys like you and Dante here on Pro Muscle to say whatever they like without any censorship. A lot of people including myself want to hear what you guys have to say.

Thanks for the sentiment, man.

It was and simply is a matter of finances. Board sponsors have special privileges: Trainers, supplement companies, etc. pay fees to be on the board that I don't pay.

The voice of a sponsor trumps mine every time, so I'm cool with that. The issue with me is kind of a catch22 b/c of the fact my opinion may indeed weigh heavily, meaning there's more potential to impact finances. Makes perfect sense to me, as well.

Mod's feel free to delete any or all of my posts here. No arguments here!

-S

 

[mountaindog1]

I have a three part article (just submitted part 2) coming out on peri-workout recovery supplementation that addressed some of what this person was referring to, John.

I may have just picked up a couple more things to put in part 3, I think.

-S

I can't wait! Awesome!

JM

 

[mountaindog1]

Personally I think its awesome that we have guys like you and Dante here on Pro Muscle to say whatever they like without any censorship. A lot of people including myself want to hear what you guys have to say.

Absolutely. And from what I can see this is about the only site that kicks trolls off. There are so many good topics and conversations on other forums that get ruined by trolls that it just becomes a waste of time to even go there. That is prolly my number one favorite thing about this site. We can argue, and disagree and have great discussion....but mods will take a troll and toss em out the door. The way it should be.

JM

 

[Adonis89]

I don't get into arguments or bash other coaches, not my style, but I did want to post a response to things said today about not having carbs pre or intra workout from a coach on facebook. His statement was pretty "absolute". It's not optimal. I wouldn't say my solution is optimal for everybody, but I would say the large majority of us who train hard would/do benefit from some carbs pre or intra or both.

Here is his thoughts, and I added mine afterwards..again I'm not bashing him, not my style, just rarely do I disagree this much with something as this..and this is just my opinion


Carbs during training inhibit GH release, and important fat burning hormone, that also has the function of rebuilding connective tissue.

JOHN: I think it is silly to worry about impacting GH release during training...worry about muscle growth and leave fat loss to other parts of the day and a big GH pulse to sleeping at night. You also won't see the IGF-1 benefit as fully as you would if carbs were present.


Carbs stimulates the production of insulin, however it also stimulates serotonin production, which tends to mellow out your training drive. Hence, you don’t put those extra kilos on the bars, or do those extra reps, which are the ones that really stimulate growth.

JOHN: I advise 25-35 grams of carbs in pre meal. If that makes you sleepy, you are REALLY sensitive to carbs...and if you add a tad bit of fat, as I suggest, glucose entry into bloodstream will be controlled, and you will not have a big insulin dump that makes you sleepy.


Carbs function by raising insulin lower cortisol. Most people immediately think. "Yahoo! I am more anabolic!" NOT. Research now points that cortisol is your friend during training. It is now believed to be the primary signal to induce hypertrophy response.

JOHN: Eating some carbs isn't going to kill all cortisol and the inflammatory effect....again this is pure silliness and extreme. I believe it is wise to limit muscle protein breakdown in the big picture (enabling easier muscle protein synthesis if right nutrients are present), this happens with insulin from carbs.


When you train for strength and/or power, you want maximum focus and drive. That depends on the neurotransmitters dopamine and acetyl-choline. Taking carbs before and during lowers those neurotransmitter levels, taking the wind out of your sales.

JOHN: See how you do 45 minutes into a brutal workout with no carbs in you for the day..good luck with that...


Who can handle the most quality work wins. Multiple sources of carnitines, BCAA’s, beta-alanine, citrulline malate will increase work capacity -

JOHN: beta alanine looks great on paper, but I have never seen it do anything substantial except make your face tingle...I get it for free, and don't bother with it. Same with carnitines...I'll stick with casein hydrolysate and HBCD thank you.

I think people who talk in "absolutes" about biology are not fully understanding it. Fluid mechanics (cycles, waves) not "on or off."

Carbs during training is not a new concept, but it's newer to bodybuilding and has been optimized by coaches like Meadows. CLEARLY it works for a solid group of people.

I agree with John's approach of finding a balance (which likely changes per person). Enough carbs, at the right time and of the right type, to tip the scales further toward anabolism without bogging the system down (i.e getting tired, bloated, sluggish etc).

The nervous system (sympathetic vs, parasympathetic) responses to training with our without food (particularly excess glucose influx) are true, but I don't think John uses extremes, so yea he may have a little less neuro-drive than if he were fasted, but he's also coming out the the training net higher tissue synthesis, less CNS wear, less DOMS. His goal with bodybuilders isn't to have the worlds most focused training session lol. It's to get fucking big and stay lean.

And factually speaking, it's unlikely that taking in glucose during trainign will lead to less IGF-1. Glucose and insulin are signals that upregulate IGF-1 conversion from GH.

The only natural GH pulses worth worrying about are nocturnal and postprandial (in concert with cortisol, insulin and glucagon). There's also a distinction people forget to make between neurologically stimulated GH release (i.e. during sleep) and glucose counterregulatory GH release. Training will cause both, but the stronger pulse is a neuro initiated pulse. Still....it's not something that's going to matter much in the big picture. As others said, we're still talking physiological amounts which do not cause major physique developments.