Training EOD (3-4x per week)

[svenrpb]

hit post too soon....

It's been on my mind, I'll start a thread. These are concepts I've wrestled with for 20 years when I got my bachelors in biology to now. We have newer studies now but these concepts are always on my mind. This also isn't minutia (ie which joint angle will perfectly hit the outer 1/18 of my biceps, etc. etc). These are big, bold "things" that can radically impact what is happening when and how you eat and train:

• MND size limit https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25464670/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22130137/
  • "MND size has a "ceiling" limit during hypertrophic process beyond which extra myonuclei are donated by satellite cell to support further muscle growth"
• Repeated bout effect https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169747/#:~:text=Stresses to skeletal muscle often,(RBE), are unclear.
  • If this didn't exist factory workers would probably be dying daily. This protects your body from damage of the same type of activity. Even weeks later. If you are an accustomed lifter adding a little weight, pushing a little hard doesn't cut it. This is an important safety mechanism of your body. This is a major reason why so few people make progress.
• Strength vs size of limb muscles and what controls what (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20660752/)
  • A stronga doesn't get you a bigga. AR receptor is the driving of increasing force/strength
• Sarcoplasmic verse myofibrillar hypertrophy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6550381/
  • For accustomed lifters, it's almost all sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Fake muscle, fluid. Cosmetic only.
• Protein requirements to build tissue (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732256/

What this leads me to personally are a handful of overarching concepts to drive myofibrillar hypertrophy and escape MND size limit and RBE:

1. Train infrequently. I don't know exactly how often, but it definitely isn't 4+ times a week. Likely 1-2...possibly three but unlikely.
2. Train very hard with extremely high tension, no momentum, and put a lot of focus on negatives (negatives cause much more muscle damage)
3. Food is the most important thing (duh). No sets, no reps, no volume builds the muscle. Cause damage by lifting infrequently and eat a lot of food, specifically protein. "If muscle is going to gain mass, protein synthesis must exceed protein breakdown". This is a big "duh" for us. This is not apparent for casual lifters. Animal protein should be the driver. Higher protein is best. Added carbs will contribute to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Some carbs are fine, I'm not saying never eat them at all. Eating a metric ton is a key driver of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (again, I'm not saying it's bad).
4. There is no MND size limit on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Eat carbs, drive a pump, drive frequency and you can shoot sarcoplasmic hypertrophy to the mother effing moon. Add in anabolic and holly hell. Again, for sarcoplasmic you don't have almost any of the above to contend with AND you don't even have to train that hard.
5. It's not all one or the other. Luki and I may disagree on sarcoplasmic (although, all cards on the table I think the science is settled comparing sarcoplasmic verse myofibrillar hypertrophy and what's what) hypertrophy but I do agree with him the way some bodybuilders train and eat many are driving some level of "real" (myrofibrillar) growth. It's not all one or the other but as you become and accustomed lifter over and over and over you hit MND size limit, RBE kicks in, and real growth is over.

Lastly, It is up to the individual if it matters. When you see guys online say "don't worry if you haven't trained in a month and you are smaller you can just start lifting and muscle memory comes in" that is referring all to sarcoplasmic hypertoprhy. When you see Mike Isratel talk about doing some reps on vacation so you don't lose size that is all sarcoplasmic.

Years back I stopped all carbs, went carnivore and stopped lifting for a month while also staying overall active. I lost a ton of "muscle". That doesn't happen with real muscle. It's fake, phony, fluid. I'm not arguing if anyone should care about any of this. I do. Theoretically the more myofibrillar muscle you can drive then you can follow that up with more sarcoplasmic.

You can go deep in the weeds, but the top 5 concepts are pretty tried and true and concepts we should consider. Just listen to how influencers talk though. All of these kind of quotes are not about real muscle if you watch these guys on youtube...

"go the gym once or twice on vacation and you won't lose any muscle while your gone"
"concerned about your muscle loss while on the beach for a week, it's normal, and you will get it back"
"it's normal that if you don't lift a few weeks you will lose muscle but it comes back as soon as you go in there"
Milos sarcev talking about he pump, insulin, etc. that's all pumping fluid, it's not building myofibrillar tissue
the list goes on and on...

sorry that's just kind of thoughts off the cuff...No need to get tied off on 50 different concepts and paralysis by analysis...but I believe we should be thinking about those five key concepts above...

So essentialy you say everyone needs to train less? Max 4 times per week?

 

[stackdizzy]

You are taking it very personal. I have stated many times everyone has to do what they wanna do. I love the gym and would love to be there everyday, for me eod or 4 times a week works like 10 times better. Worth a try.

not only did you invalidate the way I train, now you are trying to invalidate my questions. Sometimes when you don't answer the question you actually answer the question. I see no need to continue this conversation.

 

[emeric delczeg]

So essentialy you say everyone needs to train less? Max 4 times per week?

I would like to see a study on working out 2 times per day, 6 days, the most muscle I gained when I lifted 2 time day, and not just me Arnold and other old timers, I eat supper foods not powders, even now when I train 2 times per day I consume 36 eggs per day.

 

[Hyperemia]

I would like to see a study on working out 2 times per day, 6 days, the most muscle I gained when I lifted 2 time day, and not just me Arnold and other old timers, I eat supper foods not powders, even now when I train 2 times per day I consume 36 eggs per day.

It really would be nice if there were studies on enhanced athletes and various training methods. Unfortunately we’re stuck with studies on drunk frat boys, the geriatric and the obese to draw our conclusions

 

[aHarness]

So essentialy you say everyone needs to train less? Max 4 times per week?

How is it not clicking in your head that DAYS spent in the gym is one of the least relevant factors vs total volume, intensity etc?

You could make a 4 day split and a 5 day split practically the exact same thing just by pairing a body part with another (chest with shoulders, for example)

 

[emeric delczeg]

It really would be nice if there were studies on enhanced athletes and various training methods. Unfortunately we’re stuck with studies on drunk frat boys, the geriatric and the obese to draw our conclusions

At one point in my life I was doing Olympic Weight Lifting, some of the advanced lifters ( part of the Romania National Team) were working out 2 times per day, they were consuming 5 to 6 gram protein per body kg. It was in 1972.

 

[Yousef12O2]

So essentialy you say everyone needs to train less? Max 4 times per week?

You ever see how jordan peters train? He looks like hes about to pass out lol you cant do that every day. Your body needs to recover otherwise youll start going backwards instead of progressing.

 

[emeric delczeg]

You ever see how jordan peters train? He looks like hes about to pass out lol you cant do that every day. Your body needs to recover otherwise youll start going backwards instead of progressing.

Muscle recover in 6 hours, and CNS around 20 minutes to return to baseline levels post-training, long as you not injuring you muscles, tendons or ligament. That way you need to workout smart.

 

[cage99]

Muscle recover in 6 hours, and CNS around 20 minutes to return to baseline levels post-training, long as you not injuring you muscles, tendons or ligament. That way you need to workout smart.

You have some literature to back this up? Doesn’t seem like much time at all. Interested in reading it if you have it…

Cage

 

[emeric delczeg]

You have some literature to back this up? Doesn’t seem like much time at all. Interested in reading it if you have it…

Cage

It was a study conducted on Romania Olympic Weight Lifters, the study was conducted in the 60s. Probably Arnold saw that study, and that why he was working-out 2 times per day.

 

[Yousef12O2]

It was a study conducted on Romania Olympic Weight Lifters, the study was conducted in the 60s. Probably Arnold saw that study, and that why he was working-out 2 times per day.

Does your muscles feel sore the day after you train them?

 

[IntenseVolume]

It was a study conducted on Romania Olympic Weight Lifters, the study was conducted in the 60s. Probably Arnold saw that study, and that why he was working-out 2 times per day.

Is there any other study that came to that conclusion? Most modern studies conclude roughly 48-72 hours.
Olympic weight lifters are definitely not the best group to draw a conclusion about the majority of people.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Does your muscles feel sore the day after you train them?

No.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Is there any other study that came to that conclusion? Most modern studies conclude roughly 48-72 hours.
Olympic weight lifters are definitely not the best group to draw a conclusion about the majority of people.

Here on other study not with 6 hours, with 15 minutes , 24 hours and 48 hours.

Upper-Body Resistance Exercise Reduces Time to Recover... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research

he effects of active and passive strategies on the recovery response after a high-volume bench press protocol. Twenty-five resistance-trained men (mean ± SD: age = 25.8 ± 3.6 years; body mass = 87.1 ± 12.1 kg; and height = 177.4 ± 4.9 cm) performed a high-volume bench press session (8 sets of 10...

journals.lww.com

 

[beast405]

Everytime I start training less, for example EOD or 4 times per week(legs/push/pull for example) I get much bigger/better results/agression/focus in the gym to go for it. I am in my early 30´s so not an old fuck.

Don´t get me wrong, I love the gym and would spent there everyday if I could. It just seems counterproductive everytime I try it. When I train balls to the wall there is no way I can bring the same intensity 5-6 times per week(maybe with an armday, but those days are garbage anyway).

In my opinion a lot of people are going way to often because they think they have to because the ´pro´s´ do this. For most of you, you will never be a pro ook look like one/have the genetics to be one. Why train like one?

Thoughts?

I agree totally. I workout 3 days a week most of the time. And I grow just fine. I don’t see a reason to train any more than that. And tbh if I workout more than that I notice I get burnt out quickly.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I agree totally. I workout 3 days a week most of the time. And I grow just fine. I don’t see a reason to train any more than that. And tbh if I workout more than that I notice I get burnt out quickly.

That is OK, you figured out what works for you.

 

[beast405]

That is OK, you figured out what works for you.

Yes sir and that’s what it’s all about

 

[stackdizzy]

At one point in my life I was doing Olympic Weight Lifting, some of the advanced lifters ( part of the Romania National Team) were working out 2 times per day, they were consuming 5 to 6 gram protein per body kg. It was in 1972.

Man You start.a.thread and tell nothing but stories! Seems like you have had a pretty interesting life!!

 

[Dawgpound_Hank]

I totally get what OP is saying. Even back in my 30's, I rarely trained more than 2 days in a row. If I did, that 3rd workout, while might not "suffer", but getting a new PR on any exercise wasn't going to happen. ESPECIALLY after a leg day. If one is TRULY busting ass on legs, how many set a new PR or see progress on an exercise in the gym the next day? And for ME, even at 60, that's what it's about - progress, trying like hell to get one more rep/5 more lbs than last workout. Obviously it doesn't happen every workout, if so, there would be guys benching 2000 lbs and squatting 4000 after 20 years of lifting haha. But I still TRY. If not, I might as well throw in the towel and just be content with maintaining being I'm getting older. FUK that.lol

However, we all know many types of training styles/splits work, so to each their own. That's been proven obviously via so many contrasting styles from Steve Michalik vs Yates, to Mentzer vs Arnie, to Paul Dillet vs David Henry, etc etc etc.

Anyways, just my take.

 

[Thor65]

I train every day, some day 2 times, I don`t follow any training splits or other gurus routine, I do what works the best for me , and I love it. You need to create the training that works for you the best and you need to enjoyed. Eat, train and rest and you will grow. You need workout brutal and smart. I am not a person with great genetic.

How did you used to train or has it always been instinctive like now? How did you train when you were competing in season and off season?