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When is insulin necessary w HGH?

luki7788

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there is no need to use insulin with GH, I know even people who used 20iu a day and their insulin sensitivity has not suffered despite the lack of insulin - but the question is is it optimal?

certainly not and using gh without insulin we lose at least half of the effects that we can get when combining it with insulin
 

qbkilla

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Have you used gh? Lol
I have, currently and various points in the past, but haven't had sides or the results that others get. Possibly due to the fact that my baseline igf is low and while gh has raised it (from 55 to 130) I still test low relative to others on the forum.

I'm not someone who shoots to be a mass monster but I have had distension at times when pushing calories higher. However I can usually bring it down by adjusting food volume (while keeping calories the same). Meaning less chicken breast, veggies, low calorie fillers and swapping in food that "slides down easy." I definitely think in my case when I get bloated or distended it's just food volume/slow digestion vs visceral fat, organ growth, etc.
 

Type-IIx

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I have, currently and various points in the past, but haven't had sides or the results that others get. Possibly due to the fact that my baseline igf is low and while gh has raised it (from 55 to 130) I still test low relative to others on the forum.

I'm not someone who shoots to be a mass monster but I have had distension at times when pushing calories higher. However I can usually bring it down by adjusting food volume (while keeping calories the same). Meaning less chicken breast, veggies, low calorie fillers and swapping in food that "slides down easy." I definitely think in my case when I get bloated or distended it's just food volume/slow digestion vs visceral fat, organ growth, etc.
Drop sodium intake, take a diuretic, even lowering carbs could help a bit. It's just fluid retention. Honestly, you're not likely to see much of any of these effects unless at pretty high doses for long periods, and with a 130 IGF-1 I feel there must be something else going on.
 

pharma1

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GH is like icing on the cake if everything else is on point. But putting icing on a cake that needs to be baked and frosted isnt going to do a lot of good.

IGF is produced from the liver once you use GH. Its one of the primary reasons bodybuilders use the stuff. There is a maximum amount that the liver can produce in a given time frame as well. So eventually the dose of GH becomes redundant.

Taking 2-6IU's of GH is not going to distend your gut. That is a pretty missunderstood phenomena anyway, the majority of bad distension that people think of is due to loading carbs and being dehydrated for the stage, not moderate GH/Slin use. Unless we are talking very extreme use for extreme periods of time. Yes organs absolutely become enlarged as they have IGF-1 receptors so with increased IGF it will happen. But not when your running lower amounts and coming off and on the stuff over time.

I find lower level competitors or gym rats HIGHLY exaggerate the risks of distension when using moderate doses like 4-6IU's of GH along with 5-10 units of Slin pre and post.
 

qbkilla

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Drop sodium intake, take a diuretic, even lowering carbs could help a bit. It's just fluid retention. Honestly, you're not likely to see much of any of these effects unless at pretty high doses for long periods, and with a 130 IGF-1 I feel there must be something else going on.

I don't have the exact numbers but I know my baseline was 55, a few months on bumped igf up to 80s, then 110s, then up to 130 on my last test. So it is steadily going up but I guess starting at such a low point, I'm just a poor converter?

I remember years ago when I ran gh, I took a serum gh test and it was inline with what other guys were getting on the forums, but my igf was still pretty low compared to what others posted when on gh.

No liver issues, don't drink, use drugs, barley use orals and when they do liver values are only slightly elevated. I no longer use eq, but back when they did my hematocrit was never high and it never really has been, if that adds any additional info.
 

pharma1

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I don't have the exact numbers but I know my baseline was 55, a few months on bumped igf up to 80s, then 110s, then up to 130 on my last test. So it is steadily going up but I guess starting at such a low point, I'm just a poor converter?

I remember years ago when I ran gh, I took a serum gh test and it was inline with what other guys were getting on the forums, but my igf was still pretty low compared to what others posted when on gh.

No liver issues, don't drink, use drugs, barley use orals and when they do liver values are only slightly elevated. I no longer use eq, but back when they did my hematocrit was never high and it never really has been, if that adds any additional info.

What dose of GH were you on to have that happen? and how did they measure your IGF, sometimes the numbers scale strangely because we are talking different units of measurement. anything at 55 baseline sounds like you have a tumor near the pituitary gland inhibiting natural production, thats WAY low on the reference range im used to seeing, but if we are talking different units of measurement that would make A LOT more sense. Or your like 75 years old?
 

Type-IIx

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I don't have the exact numbers but I know my baseline was 55, a few months on bumped igf up to 80s, then 110s, then up to 130 on my last test. So it is steadily going up but I guess starting at such a low point, I'm just a poor converter?

I remember years ago when I ran gh, I took a serum gh test and it was inline with what other guys were getting on the forums, but my igf was still pretty low compared to what others posted when on gh.

No liver issues, don't drink, use drugs, barley use orals and when they do liver values are only slightly elevated. I no longer use eq, but back when they did my hematocrit was never high and it never really has been, if that adds any additional info.
Drug response is highly individualized. Given the sizeable change (55 to 130, over how long?) I'd say the product was likely legit, but it could be a genetic factor (e.g., IGF(CA)19 or GHR d3/fl polymorphisms have an effect).

With the other stuff EQ-hematocrit, 17α-alkylated ALT, AST etc: too many factors and variables, but it's more complex than just being a fast metabolizer across the board. There are too many genes that are involved.

A lot of people don't see liver value elevations with short, sane cycles where they don't abuse alcohol, so that's normal.
 

pharma1

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55-130 is not that much of a change in my experience. Normal reference for IGF-1 is 53-331 ng/mL - but for a healthy person who is not 75 years old 55 is VERY LOW. and on 4IU's I typically see 400+ IGF scores coming back even for men in their 40's in less than ideal circumstances from diet model to genetics and liver health.

So the minimal swing and the extremely low level baseline just seems worrisome to me.
 

Type-IIx

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55-130 is not that much of a change in my experience. Normal reference for IGF-1 is 53-331 ng/mL - but for a healthy person who is not 75 years old 55 is VERY LOW. and on 4IU's I typically see 400+ IGF scores coming back even for men in their 40's in less than ideal circumstances from diet model to genetics and liver health.

So the minimal swing and the extremely low level baseline just seems worrisome to me.
While I agree fundamentally (something is going on), it's a pretty big effect size for n=1 without any assumptions based on what you've seen in other persons. I think he should be getting to 250+ easily as well, but I suspect a genetic factor. Also, bear in mind, we don't know how long or how much he was using (I see no mention of duration or dosage).
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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No I agree I was jumping the gun with an extreme example, more for show then a real suspected issue. But I would absolutely be seeing an endo about this asap.
You would absolutely be seeing an endo because your growth hormone didn’t get yer IGF numbers crunk enough? What planet do you live on? Any doctor in his right mind is going to tell you that your problem is abusing black market anabolic drugs and you’re done.

PS your “conversation” with type II whatever sounds like one person talking to himself. I’d like to put @FrancisK on that case.
 

qbkilla

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What dose of GH were you on to have that happen? and how did they measure your IGF, sometimes the numbers scale strangely because we are talking different units of measurement. anything at 55 baseline sounds like you have a tumor near the pituitary gland inhibiting natural production, thats WAY low on the reference range im used to seeing, but if we are talking different units of measurement that would make A LOT more sense. Or your like 75 years old?

It was labcorp or quest I believe, I used health labs.com. And the range was listed next to my score and I believe my 55 was right within the given range, so just barley in the range at the low end. Im in my late 30's. Interesingley I have never felt I responded well to gear, or had any sides from gear. Not a hard gainer per se as I can always eat my way up and down the scale (can add or lose weight easily based on calories), gear just never has given me the pump or fullness that many report on the forums.
 

qbkilla

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While I agree fundamentally (something is going on), it's a pretty big effect size for n=1 without any assumptions based on what you've seen in other persons. I think he should be getting to 250+ easily as well, but I suspect a genetic factor. Also, bear in mind, we don't know how long or how much he was using (I see no mention of duration or dosage).

Nov 2020 86 (53-331)
Feb 2021 133 (53-331)
April 2021 162 (53-331)

Looks like I misspoke, I thought my baseline was lower than it was, 86 was the baseline and you see the jumps over time (just logged in to see the exact dates and numbers)

Dosage of gh was anywhere from 2iu to 4iu, maybe 4iu on the April test? Not sure. The GH Im pretty sure was legit the 133 was on a source we all know and the second was GH from another source well known on forums.

AAS at the time was never than 400mg at any point (usually test./tren, just test, or test/anadrol).

Diet was always about 3k calories, maintaining my weight (so never a huge defecit or surplus). Gh was always taken in the AM prior to fasted cardio, at times split between AM before fasted cardio and then the rest of my daily total PM before bed.
 

pharma1

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You would absolutely be seeing an endo because your growth hormone didn’t get yer IGF numbers crunk enough? What planet do you live on? Any doctor in his right mind is going to tell you that your problem is abusing black market anabolic drugs and you’re done.

PS your “conversation” with type II whatever sounds like one person talking to himself. I’d like to put @FrancisK on that case.
If my natural baseline IGF was at 55 I would be seeing an endo for fear I had an underlying health concern as most average males are in the 200's before any exogenous GH use. You have a good bit of attitude in these messages mate, not trying to rub anyone the wrong way but maybe you need some more education before chiming in.
 

pharma1

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Nov 2020 86 (53-331)
Feb 2021 133 (53-331)
April 2021 162 (53-331)

Looks like I misspoke, I thought my baseline was lower than it was, 86 was the baseline and you see the jumps over time (just logged in to see the exact dates and numbers)

Dosage of gh was anywhere from 2iu to 4iu, maybe 4iu on the April test? Not sure. The GH Im pretty sure was legit the 133 was on a source we all know and the second was GH from another source well known on forums.

AAS at the time was never than 400mg at any point (usually test./tren, just test, or test/anadrol).

Diet was always about 3k calories, maintaining my weight (so never a huge defecit or surplus). Gh was always taken in the AM prior to fasted cardio, at times split between AM before fasted cardio and then the rest of my daily total PM before bed.
Ya im not really doubting the GH source I am just more concerned with the low baseline mate. Have you ever considered talking with a Dr? I just rarely see someone that has that low of a baseline level unless A. in their 50's or older, or if there is some underlying issue.

Probably not an emergency but something to consider.
 

qbkilla

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Ya im not really doubting the GH source I am just more concerned with the low baseline mate. Have you ever considered talking with a Dr? I just rarely see someone that has that low of a baseline level unless A. in their 50's or older, or if there is some underlying issue.

Probably not an emergency but something to consider.
I have seen an endo once about 2 years ago. I do not complete but I dieted hard for about 5 months and got very lean down to about 175 lbs, just to push myself to see how lean I could be (stupid I know). At 185 now the inbody has me about 7 percent so I'd imagine at 175 I may have been leaner and also depleted for a while. Calories were very low for me, about 2100 for a while and my legs were always achy and sore and I had no energy, alot of adf ( basically I'd eat 4k calories one day , fast the next, for an average of 2k per day).

Anyway went to see a doc just to make sure my fatigue was from dieting for so long and not something else. All blood work was fine but glucose came back like 40s.

Dr sent me to theb Endo who assumed that it was the dieting and the test was an error. They retested my glucose twice and it came back fine, all other blood work was also fine.

Even back when I used to run stupid dosages ( used to walk around 200-210 when I was younger not as lean but bigger) never had anything alarming on my blood work.

So typically all my bloods are good despite aas usage. Just visited the Endo that one time due to what was determined to be an false glucose reading (it wasn't due to slin I didn't use slim back then). The doctor did say they do happen. I pushed for more comprehensive testing to get de bodybuilding markers checked but he saw no need and didn't order. Thyroid is always in range.
 

pharma1

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I have seen an endo once about 2 years ago. I do not complete but I dieted hard for about 5 months and got very lean down to about 175 lbs, just to push myself to see how lean I could be (stupid I know). At 185 now the inbody has me about 7 percent so I'd imagine at 175 I may have been leaner and also depleted for a while. Calories were very low for me, about 2100 for a while and my legs were always achy and sore and I had no energy, alot of adf ( basically I'd eat 4k calories one day , fast the next, for an average of 2k per day).

Anyway went to see a doc just to make sure my fatigue was from dieting for so long and not something else. All blood work was fine but glucose came back like 40s.

Dr sent me to theb Endo who assumed that it was the dieting and the test was an error. They retested my glucose twice and it came back fine, all other blood work was also fine.

Even back when I used to run stupid dosages ( used to walk around 200-210 when I was younger not as lean but bigger) never had anything alarming on my blood work.

So typically all my bloods are good despite aas usage. Just visited the Endo that one time due to what was determined to be an false glucose reading (it wasn't due to slin I didn't use slim back then). The doctor did say they do happen. I pushed for more comprehensive testing to get de bodybuilding markers checked but he saw no need and didn't order. Thyroid is always in range.

Man some of these numbers blow me away lol! 40mg/dl? Ya there must have been something funny, so they retested and you were fine. Cool. I doubt they actually tested your IGF-1 levels during those basic panels but I could be mistaken. It still leaves room for concern to be fair. 86 isnt 55 but it still is a good margin lower than the average. I am not trying to push on this though I was just surprised hearing such low numbers initially.

Didnt mean to run away with the thread.

So in a shoddy attempt to salvage something for the OP, I didn't see anyone point to Milos Sarcev as a reference for gh and insulin protocols but I would highly recommend checking out anything you can find from that guy!
 

Type-IIx

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You would absolutely be seeing an endo because your growth hormone didn’t get yer IGF numbers crunk enough? What planet do you live on? Any doctor in his right mind is going to tell you that your problem is abusing black market anabolic drugs and you’re done.

PS your “conversation” with type II whatever sounds like one person talking to himself. I’d like to put @FrancisK on that case.
Hah. Notice I said "highly individualized," individual variation, and "something going on," not "something is wrong that you need to have fixed." Going to a medical professional to get your circulating IGF-1 sky high is laughable to me also. I also never, ever, ever would advocate insulin for a healthy person. Metformin or get off the rhGH.
 

Type-IIx

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Nov 2020 86 (53-331)
Feb 2021 133 (53-331)
April 2021 162 (53-331)

Looks like I misspoke, I thought my baseline was lower than it was, 86 was the baseline and you see the jumps over time (just logged in to see the exact dates and numbers)

Dosage of gh was anywhere from 2iu to 4iu, maybe 4iu on the April test? Not sure. The GH Im pretty sure was legit the 133 was on a source we all know and the second was GH from another source well known on forums.

AAS at the time was never than 400mg at any point (usually test./tren, just test, or test/anadrol).

Diet was always about 3k calories, maintaining my weight (so never a huge defecit or surplus). Gh was always taken in the AM prior to fasted cardio, at times split between AM before fasted cardio and then the rest of my daily total PM before bed.
You're likely just relatively GH insensitive. This is not cause for alarm, you do deviate from the mean of the normal distribution of IGF-1 serum levels, but that's OK.

Circulating GH-binding protein (cGHBP) levels, I would think yours are fairly low, are generally reflective of GH receptor sensitivity as GHBP is derived from GH receptors, basically they are cleaved off from the GH receptor at the cell membrane [1].

"At low GH concentrations, when GH receptors are in excess of free GH, a comparable response to a given amount of GH is expected in all subjects, whereas at a higher GH concentration, the response becomes correlated to the expression of the GH receptors (by levels of cGHBP)" [1].

As we know, at your normal levels of GH and IGF-1, you're healthy. That's what matters, not some arbitrary range. But GHBP levels are the greatest contributor to the wide variations in individual response to GH.

You do not need an endo to get your IGF-1 levels up. Hell, IGF-1 is not something you want chronically elevated unless you are banging hGH and YOLOing like some.

Basically, this just comports with wide interindividual variation, and your observation that you may just be a "poor converter."

[1] Hansen, T. K., Gravholt, C. H., Ørskov, H., Rasmussen, M. H., Christiansen, J. S., & Jørgensen, J. O. L. (2002). Dose Dependency of the Pharmacokinetics and Acute Lipolytic Actions of Growth Hormone. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 87(10), 4691–4698. doi:10.1210/jc.2002-020563
 

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