Personally I have nothing against you, but enough with the bull shit stories man.
It really doesn't surprise me that so many people are stuck believing that more is better. This was the same issue mentzer and yates dealt with. Critics everywhere couldn't believe they got their physiques from low volume workouts. It stunned them to the point of disbelief and cause most people to call them liars and assert that more is better and it is impossible to build a quality physique on "just hard work" and low volume. The critics seemed to be upset that they themselves worked out 6-7 days a week, sometimes 2x a day and couldn't get into nearly as good of shape. History repeats itself.
Big Barry you seem like an intelligent person. What do you make of my assertion?
Comparing low volume/high intensity training to low/moderate dosages is apples and oranges. Not a good comparison at all.
You got me curious. What's the evidence?
How are they apples and oranges? you haven't supported your statement. It is a valid comparison because until mentzer and yates people believed in order to get bigger and stronger you needed to have more sets and train on more days and conversely you would not be as big/strong if you trained with less sets on fewer days. With the above referenced topic people are saying in order to get bigger/stronger you need more gear; conversely if you don't use as much gear you will not be as big/strong. Apples = Apples.
You're trying to argue that less is more. If you switch from a high volume set to low volume/high intensity such DC training or HIT then chances are you're going to shock your body and it's going to grow. Conversely, in your comparison, if you have been blasting 2G of test a week for 12 weeks and just for the same of it we'll say that you gained 10lbs of lean mass. Now, you continue your blast, but instead of 2G of test/week you are using 300mg of test/week. Not only will you not gain anymore muscle, you will lose most of your gains that you achieved from the 2G blast. But guess what happens when you start blasting 2G of test again? Here comes the big muscle gains again.
As far as training methods go, you can flip flop between high volume and low volume and it will keep the body guessing thus resulting in continuous improvements. In case you haven't caught on just yet, you can't flip flop between high doses and low doses and keep expecting to gain muscle like you can with training. Changing up your training habits will continuously shock your body, but the only time you will shock your body with drugs is either by increasing your doses AND/OR changing the drugs that your running. This is because eventually there will be a point of diminishing returns thus resulting in an increase in your drug dosages.
So like I said before, comparing training methods to drug dose methods is apples and oranges. Once you stop growing off of a gram of test you cant just cut your dose in half and expect to grow. Not only will you not grow at a lower dose, but you will lose muscle.
If your very first cycle is 300mg of test then of course you will get results bc it's nearly three times your normal level, but eventually you will become tolerant on that dose and it will no longer create new results. The only way to go is up if you plan on running the same compounds. Adding in different compounds is a completely different story, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Your argument is still bunk. Mentzer and Yates never stated that flip flopping between methods was "shocking" your muscles. They stated HIT was their method and they backed it up. "Muscle Confusion" is a farce. Muscles do what they do. The contract. They have no mind of their own in which to be "confused." Have you read Heavy Duty? If you have I don't want to reiterate the fundamental principles, however, it doesn't seem like understand them.
More is not always better. If it were then why are the people pushing 5g a week and look like your average college wrestler. Shouldn't they all look like pros?
Additionally, why blast and cruise? Seems like if more were better and there were no benefit from increasing dosages (blasting) and then cyclically reducing dosages (cruising) then people wouldn't do it. But thats the latest craze right? Somebody earlier in the thread said "Jay cruises on 700mg of test." Why would a decorated 4x Mr. Olympia and "the most successful bodybuilder around" blast and cruise? Why not stay at 5-10g a week year round or whatever mega dosage he uses?
Looks like we disagree and thats okay. My point was that 20-30 years ago Mentzer and Yates were mocked by the popular wisdom of the day. And it seemed logical: More is better. They proved them wrong.
Last point. If you want to do 5g be my guest. If you want to workout 6 days a week 2x a day go ahead. But I think too many people dismiss the legitimacy of HIT and moderate dosing.
Hahaha that's your brilliant counterpoint, "your argument is still bunk." I hate to burst your close minded bubble, but my argument is common sense. If you can't grow off of a gram of AAS then you sure as hell aren't growing off half a gram. I honestly don't give a shit if you believe what I'm saying or not, like I said it's common sense which you apparently don't have.
When did I say that Dorian believed in switching training methods? You said that, not me. I on the other hand said that changing up your training will produce results. You're saying the same exact shit that I am, but bc I chose to use the term "keep your muscles guessing," then you some how think I'm wrong.
You obviously had your mind made up that you were going to debate with me regardless of my answer bc I said clear as day that I don't think you need to run grams and grams of shit to produce results in the beginning. I also said that I believe in starting low dose and working your way up, but you clearly missed that. I've never ran more than 600mg of test a week and 50mg dbol a day.
I'm not going to waste anymore time pointing out the obvious to you. If you want to believe that you can grow off 200mgs of AAS after spending years of blasting high doses then be guest, piss in the wind all you want.
Btw all that Dorian and Muntzer proved was that low volume/high intensity training works. The same rule doesn't apply to drugs no matter how much you want to believe it does. Incase you weren't aware, Andreas Muntzer died due to abusing the living shit out of diuretics while prepping for a contest, but you want to sit here and argue that they were pushing less is better? The fucking irony in that is classic. :banghead:
Here you go
3G a week is standart. There are guys whose are takes more than that
You are talking like you know most of them...Where is your information from? Boards tright? If I would register as a blahblahblah retired pro and would post over and over that the real truth how to get big is good genetics, food and some aas 1-2G lets just say...Would you believe that? NOOO, no would not believe that, because it hurts...it hurts to know that this game is not for you, because you don't have genetics, it hurts to know that you will never be like that pro no matter what you will do, so you choose to believe that it's all about drugs..."Oh I will not get so big only because I am not abusing the stuff, drugs are the answer this is why the guys is 300 pounds and I am only 240 pounds, he is an abuser and I am not" etc You choose what to believe and you choose that truth which is not hurting you
OK I will give an example why I think someone like Lee responds differentyl to 200mg test and 200mg deca than someone like me or you...If you do not mind I will use Lee and you as an example...
The first guy trained for...(I don't know you tell Elvia) and used close to 2G/week
The second guy is 17 y/o, trained for a few years, ate and took whatever his mom (his mother was his mentor) told him (this was arround 1990 so I am sure even if he used something that was very very minimal dosages)
2G VS miniminal (if any) dosages
Which looks better? Which respoinds better to training? Which has better genetics to start with?
Double the first guys dosages and pust second guy on 2G? What would happen? Well probably the first guy would add another 5-10 pounds and look basivally the same while the second guy would MORPH and put musce on his natural/low druged body like there is no tomorrow