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Why we don't see condition like this anymore these days?

Big Barry

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Kind sir, how long have you known Dorian and when did you meet. Second, are you asking me to believe what you are telling me? Everything? Thank you.

Your oily obsequious remarks throughout this thread are lame....
 

ALLEX

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Personally I have nothing against you, but enough with the bull shit stories man.

Fair enough. I might have added 20 or 30% to the figures here and there. Doesnt change the fact that people are playing with their health in a dangerous way. And yes, I understand its professional muscle and people will use high doses to build muscles, but we only see the high doses and barely any muscle from those who use them.

The guys that post their pictures and actually look good are the ones following something close to Big As Growth Principles, nothing fancy and no mega-dosing.
 

Ironhead78

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It really doesn't surprise me that so many people are stuck believing that more is better. This was the same issue mentzer and yates dealt with. Critics everywhere couldn't believe they got their physiques from low volume workouts. It stunned them to the point of disbelief and cause most people to call them liars and assert that more is better and it is impossible to build a quality physique on "just hard work" and low volume. The critics seemed to be upset that they themselves worked out 6-7 days a week, sometimes 2x a day and couldn't get into nearly as good of shape. History repeats itself.

Big Barry you seem like an intelligent person. What do you make of my assertion?
 
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Simpllyhuge

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How can I stay low dose as a non competitive fitness enthusiast and get awesome conditioning while still saying strong and developed?
 

Medic08

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It really doesn't surprise me that so many people are stuck believing that more is better. This was the same issue mentzer and yates dealt with. Critics everywhere couldn't believe they got their physiques from low volume workouts. It stunned them to the point of disbelief and cause most people to call them liars and assert that more is better and it is impossible to build a quality physique on "just hard work" and low volume. The critics seemed to be upset that they themselves worked out 6-7 days a week, sometimes 2x a day and couldn't get into nearly as good of shape. History repeats itself.

Big Barry you seem like an intelligent person. What do you make of my assertion?

Comparing low volume/high intensity training to low/moderate dosages is apples and oranges. Not a good comparison at all.
 

jp2007

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Honestly this nonsense of pros/212 guys taking 5 grams a week is ridiculous.. Are there some that push the limits? Probably, but to say it like its a rule across the board is absolutely ridiculous.

I guarantee there are a significantly greater amount of pros running LESS than 5g gear, than there are running 5g+.

Such a ludacris statement.
 

Ironhead78

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Comparing low volume/high intensity training to low/moderate dosages is apples and oranges. Not a good comparison at all.

How are they apples and oranges? you haven't supported your statement. It is a valid comparison because until mentzer and yates people believed in order to get bigger and stronger you needed to have more sets and train on more days and conversely you would not be as big/strong if you trained with less sets on fewer days. With the above referenced topic people are saying in order to get bigger/stronger you need more gear; conversely if you don't use as much gear you will not be as big/strong. Apples = Apples.
 

jp2007

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You got me curious. What's the evidence?

Simply being friends with pros and talking with them, and also top level national competitors in the industry.

Most of the time pros are simply harder workers OR better genetically than the rest of the bodybuilders... That is something that people are either too naive to believe/understand or they are just bitter about it so they say they take more drugs.

My comments aren't directed at anyone in particular, I'm just trying to say that not ALL pros are pushing heavy doses of gear.
 

Medic08

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How are they apples and oranges? you haven't supported your statement. It is a valid comparison because until mentzer and yates people believed in order to get bigger and stronger you needed to have more sets and train on more days and conversely you would not be as big/strong if you trained with less sets on fewer days. With the above referenced topic people are saying in order to get bigger/stronger you need more gear; conversely if you don't use as much gear you will not be as big/strong. Apples = Apples.

You're trying to argue that less is more. If you switch from a high volume set to low volume/high intensity such DC training or HIT then chances are you're going to shock your body and it's going to grow. Conversely, in your comparison, if you have been blasting 2G of test a week for 12 weeks and just for the same of it we'll say that you gained 10lbs of lean mass. Now, you continue your blast, but instead of 2G of test/week you are using 300mg of test/week. Not only will you not gain anymore muscle, you will lose most of your gains that you achieved from the 2G blast. But guess what happens when you start blasting 2G of test again? Here comes the big muscle gains again.

As far as training methods go, you can flip flop between high volume and low volume and it will keep the body guessing thus resulting in continuous improvements. In case you haven't caught on just yet, you can't flip flop between high doses and low doses and keep expecting to gain muscle like you can with training. Changing up your training habits will continuously shock your body, but the only time you will shock your body with drugs is either by increasing your doses AND/OR changing the drugs that your running. This is because eventually there will be a point of diminishing returns thus resulting in an increase in your drug dosages.

So like I said before, comparing training methods to drug dose methods is apples and oranges. Once you stop growing off of a gram of test you cant just cut your dose in half and expect to grow. Not only will you not grow at a lower dose, but you will lose muscle.

If your very first cycle is 300mg of test then of course you will get results bc it's nearly three times your normal level, but eventually you will become tolerant on that dose and it will no longer create new results. The only way to go is up if you plan on running the same compounds. Adding in different compounds is a completely different story, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 

Medic08

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Oh and just for the record I'm not saying that you need grams and grams of shit to start off with. I believe in starting low with what works and slowly working your way up.
 

Ironhead78

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You're trying to argue that less is more. If you switch from a high volume set to low volume/high intensity such DC training or HIT then chances are you're going to shock your body and it's going to grow. Conversely, in your comparison, if you have been blasting 2G of test a week for 12 weeks and just for the same of it we'll say that you gained 10lbs of lean mass. Now, you continue your blast, but instead of 2G of test/week you are using 300mg of test/week. Not only will you not gain anymore muscle, you will lose most of your gains that you achieved from the 2G blast. But guess what happens when you start blasting 2G of test again? Here comes the big muscle gains again.

As far as training methods go, you can flip flop between high volume and low volume and it will keep the body guessing thus resulting in continuous improvements. In case you haven't caught on just yet, you can't flip flop between high doses and low doses and keep expecting to gain muscle like you can with training. Changing up your training habits will continuously shock your body, but the only time you will shock your body with drugs is either by increasing your doses AND/OR changing the drugs that your running. This is because eventually there will be a point of diminishing returns thus resulting in an increase in your drug dosages.

So like I said before, comparing training methods to drug dose methods is apples and oranges. Once you stop growing off of a gram of test you cant just cut your dose in half and expect to grow. Not only will you not grow at a lower dose, but you will lose muscle.

If your very first cycle is 300mg of test then of course you will get results bc it's nearly three times your normal level, but eventually you will become tolerant on that dose and it will no longer create new results. The only way to go is up if you plan on running the same compounds. Adding in different compounds is a completely different story, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Your argument is still bunk. Mentzer and Yates never stated that flip flopping between methods was "shocking" your muscles. They stated HIT was their method and they backed it up. "Muscle Confusion" is a farce. Muscles do what they do. The contract. They have no mind of their own in which to be "confused." Have you read Heavy Duty? If you have I don't want to reiterate the fundamental principles, however, it doesn't seem like understand them.

More is not always better. If it were then why are the people pushing 5g a week and look like your average college wrestler. Shouldn't they all look like pros?

Additionally, why blast and cruise? Seems like if more were better and there were no benefit from increasing dosages (blasting) and then cyclically reducing dosages (cruising) then people wouldn't do it. But thats the latest craze right? Somebody earlier in the thread said "Jay cruises on 700mg of test." Why would a decorated 4x Mr. Olympia and "the most successful bodybuilder around" blast and cruise? Why not stay at 5-10g a week year round or whatever mega dosage he uses?

Looks like we disagree and thats okay. My point was that 20-30 years ago Mentzer and Yates were mocked by the popular wisdom of the day. And it seemed logical: More is better. They proved them wrong.

Last point. If you want to do 5g be my guest. If you want to workout 6 days a week 2x a day go ahead. But I think too many people dismiss the legitimacy of HIT and moderate dosing.
 
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Medic08

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Your argument is still bunk. Mentzer and Yates never stated that flip flopping between methods was "shocking" your muscles. They stated HIT was their method and they backed it up. "Muscle Confusion" is a farce. Muscles do what they do. The contract. They have no mind of their own in which to be "confused." Have you read Heavy Duty? If you have I don't want to reiterate the fundamental principles, however, it doesn't seem like understand them.

More is not always better. If it were then why are the people pushing 5g a week and look like your average college wrestler. Shouldn't they all look like pros?

Additionally, why blast and cruise? Seems like if more were better and there were no benefit from increasing dosages (blasting) and then cyclically reducing dosages (cruising) then people wouldn't do it. But thats the latest craze right? Somebody earlier in the thread said "Jay cruises on 700mg of test." Why would a decorated 4x Mr. Olympia and "the most successful bodybuilder around" blast and cruise? Why not stay at 5-10g a week year round or whatever mega dosage he uses?

Looks like we disagree and thats okay. My point was that 20-30 years ago Mentzer and Yates were mocked by the popular wisdom of the day. And it seemed logical: More is better. They proved them wrong.

Last point. If you want to do 5g be my guest. If you want to workout 6 days a week 2x a day go ahead. But I think too many people dismiss the legitimacy of HIT and moderate dosing.

Hahaha that's your brilliant counterpoint, "your argument is still bunk." I hate to burst your close minded bubble, but my argument is common sense. If you can't grow off of a gram of AAS then you sure as hell aren't growing off half a gram. I honestly don't give a shit if you believe what I'm saying or not, like I said it's common sense which you apparently don't have.

When did I say that Dorian believed in switching training methods? You said that, not me. I on the other hand said that changing up your training will produce results. You're saying the same exact shit that I am, but bc I chose to use the term "keep your muscles guessing," then you some how think I'm wrong.

You obviously had your mind made up that you were going to debate with me regardless of my answer bc I said clear as day that I don't think you need to run grams and grams of shit to produce results in the beginning. I also said that I believe in starting low dose and working your way up, but you clearly missed that. I've never ran more than 600mg of test a week and 50mg dbol a day.

I'm not going to waste anymore time pointing out the obvious to you. If you want to believe that you can grow off 200mgs of AAS after spending years of blasting high doses then be guest, piss in the wind all you want.

Btw all that Dorian and Muntzer proved was that low volume/high intensity training works. The same rule doesn't apply to drugs no matter how much you want to believe it does. Incase you weren't aware, Andreas Muntzer died due to abusing the living shit out of diuretics while prepping for a contest, but you want to sit here and argue that they were pushing less is better? The fucking irony in that is classic. :banghead:
 

Saku39

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There is no way of knowing. We all just believe what we want. I do know that some people are naturally very strong and big, that I am sure of. How different people respond to different drugs I'm not so sure. When all is said and done I guess you have to figure out what makes you happy with your physique without doing serious harm to your body.
 

Saku39

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Hahaha that's your brilliant counterpoint, "your argument is still bunk." I hate to burst your close minded bubble, but my argument is common sense. If you can't grow off of a gram of AAS then you sure as hell aren't growing off half a gram. I honestly don't give a shit if you believe what I'm saying or not, like I said it's common sense which you apparently don't have.

When did I say that Dorian believed in switching training methods? You said that, not me. I on the other hand said that changing up your training will produce results. You're saying the same exact shit that I am, but bc I chose to use the term "keep your muscles guessing," then you some how think I'm wrong.

You obviously had your mind made up that you were going to debate with me regardless of my answer bc I said clear as day that I don't think you need to run grams and grams of shit to produce results in the beginning. I also said that I believe in starting low dose and working your way up, but you clearly missed that. I've never ran more than 600mg of test a week and 50mg dbol a day.

I'm not going to waste anymore time pointing out the obvious to you. If you want to believe that you can grow off 200mgs of AAS after spending years of blasting high doses then be guest, piss in the wind all you want.

Btw all that Dorian and Muntzer proved was that low volume/high intensity training works. The same rule doesn't apply to drugs no matter how much you want to believe it does. Incase you weren't aware, Andreas Muntzer died due to abusing the living shit out of diuretics while prepping for a contest, but you want to sit here and argue that they were pushing less is better? The fucking irony in that is classic. :banghead:

Not sure about the term muscle confusion, but I am pretty sure you can get out of a rut by using a different program to trigger different muscle fibers.
 

Chode Logan

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I think 5g's is a bit extreme, but 3g's is probably very common. 1000 of something as a base, then 2 more compounds in the 600-800mg per week range. Throw an oral in there and bam, you're over 3g's. Not too crazy.



And a lot of those guys trained hard as fuck and dieted like animals, to say Dorian just "out trained and dieted" EVERYONE is retarded. He made them all look small and was more shredded than of them. I'm not saying the drugs were the only difference, but to say that diet and training did everything is a serious knock on all those other guys in my opinion...they all trained and dieted hard. Maybe not AS hard, but there is something missing in the equation.
 

scottswald

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I think dorian trained harder than MOST... ate better than MOST... took more aas than MOST... responded better to it than MOST... all of this combined made him the best of his era, no mr olympia has ever just had a few of these qualities, you need all of them to be the very best in the world
 

Elvia1023

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What are you going on about? Have you read my posts. I never said all pro's take huge doses. When talking about such things you have to generalize... lionshare percentages etc. I stated some guys can look incredible on 500mg... Lee Priest will be one of them. Don't you read all my posts. Most genetically gifted gusy could put on huge mass and look incredible on small doses. But to be like Dorian or Ronnie at their best you need extreme doses... you think that is untrue?

People seem to think when you say most bodybuilders at a high level abuse drugs it's cos you can't come to terms with how I have to take more and train longer to get 1/4 of the results. I am fine with that... we are all built differently... I don't even want to compete. I just love bodubuilding so much I have thought about doing a crappy local show but posing in trunks is really not my thing.

Most high calibre pros are abusing drugs heavily... there will always be exceptions. I know a few guys who have mutated on relatively small amounts of drugs. Everyones response to training, diet and drugs is different. Some guys could take 10g test and 10 g tren and all the gh in the world and they would never look like a Lee Priest or a Ronnie Coleman or Dorian Yates etc etc.

I would never use me as an example of what pros take cos I don't have the genetics... I would be a fool too. Some guys may be pissed off at their genetics and by reason of that think anyone who looks better is on more drugs... stupid and silly. I am not like that in the slightest. I know there are some freaks out there... don't twist my words. What I basically stated was it is beyond ridiculous to think the highest dose he had taken was 200mg test and 200mg deca.

Where do I get my info from? Just over the years talking to many people. I have discussed doses with some pros. I have discussed doses with many high calibre bodybuilders and they are all in the same ranges... literally 50 different guys. One of my best mates is a big time drug dealer and supplies many bodybuilders with drugs and he tells me alsorts. Another friend supplies gear to people and has mentioned a few things too. I know about 150 people in real life who use gear. Where I live everyone talks about it openly and I know what most of my mates are taking... I help put many of their cycles together (just tell them times and things to use etc). I have just been the gym and was asked about gear 3 times... wanting to know what I think they should take. So yeah gear comes up quite a bit here. I know quite a few guys on 5 grams and over and some who have been at that amount for 10 years and over.

Bodybuilding is about everything combined. But the reason bobybuilders are getting freakier every decade is all down to drugs. You think they are eating new rare foods... no new drugs and more of them. Take away any aspect (food, training, drugs) and bodybuilders would look multiple times worst. But to not realize drugs is a fundamental aspect of bodybuilding is plain stupid. I am not one of these drug first guys at all... I train brutally hard and eat how my budget allows. But again I am no competing bb so I am not anal about things I enjoy life and eat alsorts. But drugs is the reason why most bodybuilders are thew way they are today.

You think I wouldn't believe that about the 1-2g drugs and lots of food and it would hurt... wtf. I know many great bodybuilders taking about 1.5-2g gear and eating great and they are huge and ripped. Don't twist my words. Infact you have pissed me off cos I have never said anything like that. It would hurt me cos I am all drugs... fuck no... I am just being real... some of you guys believe everything you are told.


http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...e-forum/101854-highest-dose-youve-been-6.html
Here you go
3G a week is standart. There are guys whose are takes more than that



You are talking like you know most of them...Where is your information from? Boards tright? If I would register as a blahblahblah retired pro and would post over and over that the real truth how to get big is good genetics, food and some aas 1-2G lets just say...Would you believe that? NOOO, no would not believe that, because it hurts...it hurts to know that this game is not for you, because you don't have genetics, it hurts to know that you will never be like that pro no matter what you will do, so you choose to believe that it's all about drugs..."Oh I will not get so big only because I am not abusing the stuff, drugs are the answer this is why the guys is 300 pounds and I am only 240 pounds, he is an abuser and I am not" etc You choose what to believe and you choose that truth which is not hurting you



OK I will give an example why I think someone like Lee responds differentyl to 200mg test and 200mg deca than someone like me or you...If you do not mind I will use Lee and you as an example...

The first guy trained for...(I don't know you tell Elvia) and used close to 2G/week
The second guy is 17 y/o, trained for a few years, ate and took whatever his mom (his mother was his mentor) told him (this was arround 1990 so I am sure even if he used something that was very very minimal dosages)
2G VS miniminal (if any) dosages
Which looks better? Which respoinds better to training? Which has better genetics to start with?
Double the first guys dosages and pust second guy on 2G? What would happen? Well probably the first guy would add another 5-10 pounds and look basivally the same while the second guy would MORPH and put musce on his natural/low druged body like there is no tomorrow
 

Elvia1023

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By the way most of my cycles in the last 18 months have ranged from 400-1.5g. Highest tren was 50mg per day. Just went abit higher recently and gonna start cycling around 2g's or so most times. I am prepared to go higher and will... hoping to do a very high dosed short cycle. I come off gear too through the year. Not that it matters just wanted to add. I know Lee Priest looked better than me on 200mg test and that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Although Dorian is a better comparison cos would I fuck want to be a midget. Don't twist my words cos it's nothing like you stated.

Anyway regarding the thread :D I think there are tonnes of guys in great condition these days. They want the mutants now so all that food and drugs will only expand the waist and create what you see in many top shows today. But look elsewhere on the globe and there are lots of guys in extreme condition... many in the US too.
 
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