• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
SPC-210x65
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
Anabolic Hormones Store Banner
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
LandmarkChem Email Banner
Medtech Store Banner
Bruce Labs Store banner
gd
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
granabolic123
Blackroids-animated-optimized-number-1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Worst compounds for lipid health?

Landmonster

Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
978
Hey Guys.

I'm wondering if anyone had any specific knowledge of which compounds were the worst for your HDL and LDL. I'd like for this to be based on real world blood work, or controlled studies or examples.

I know, the standard advice given is, "avoid Tren and orals if you care about health".

Can we break that down a bit further?


1) Of all the compounds that bodybuilder use (injectables, orals, ancillaries, etc)... which is the most harmful to lipid health?

2) Have you seen any surprising compounds that trash lipids? (Compounds that would otherwise seem mild or side-effect-free)

3) Which orals are known to harm lipids the most? (or the least)

4) Does Trenbolone harm lipids as much as orals? Or less so?


Bonus: How much does dosing play a role in this effect?
 

little slice

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
12,654
orals (especially anavar and winstrol), tren, adex, letro...probably masteron



higher the dose = more side effects





4) Does Trenbolone harm lipids as much as orals? Or less so?

who knows? probably... they both do harm to lipids so why does it matter lmao
 

Landmonster

Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
978
orals (especially anavar and winstrol), tren, adex, letro...probably masteron



4) Does Trenbolone harm lipids as much as orals? Or less so?

who knows? probably... they both do harm to lipids so why does it matter lmao

It could actually play a role, if you were being strategic with health.

It may not matter for an elite bodybuilding show, because you'd use everything your arsenal to look your best.

However, let's say you were prepping for an event, or beach vacation, or something that's not vitally important... but wanted to use a standard cutting/hardening cycle with the least impact on your health.

You could use (alongside some Test):
A) 300-400 Tren a week.... or
B) 200 Tren + low-dose Anavar or Winstrol... or
C) 0 tren, and heavy Anavar or other oral use.

That's kind of what I'm getting at.


I would like to understand which compounds are most harmful, and which ones are less harmful... and if there are any "hidden" compounds which might be thought of as mild, but are actually pretty damaging.

It would just be good knowledge to have, and file away.
 
Last edited:

liv2pb

Active member
Registered
Joined
May 29, 2015
Messages
704
I don't think ai's are as bad for cholesterol as people think. I was taking 1 mg arimidex daily at the beginning of a cycle and hdl was 46 about 6 weeks in i got gyno and used 2.5mg letro daily to get rid of it and tanked my estrogen, sore joints, zero libido. Anyway, got blood work right at the end and hdl was 42. No orals were used.
 

johnjuanb1

Featured Member / Sponsor Rep
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Sponsors
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
25,951
orals (especially anavar and winstrol), tren, adex, letro...probably masteron



higher the dose = more side effects





4) Does Trenbolone harm lipids as much as orals? Or less so?

who knows? probably... they both do harm to lipids so why does it matter lmao

Anavar yes but my lipids were normal after 5 months of 100mg winstrol and 50mg tbol.
 

Stewie

Featured Member / Verified Customer
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Verified Customer
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Messages
5,031
Progestins can play havoc on the functionality of lipoproteins, particularly HDL.
 

Stewie

Featured Member / Verified Customer
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Verified Customer
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Messages
5,031
Progestins have been repeatedly shown to increase serum copper levels via hepatic activation of a cation transporter called ceruloplasmin. When excessive copper binds to lipoproteins. This initiates proxidative effects on lipoproteins. Ultimately, dysfunctional lipoproteins.
 
Last edited:

pahlevan

Active member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
631
Little slice makes a good point, AI can wreak havoc on triglycerides. Tamoxifen caused a family members Triglycerides to go over 4000!! He almost lost his pancreas. 3 weeks in the hospital, they did dialysis to remove the fat from his blood. There were bags of what looked like gravy!! Of course, if he has done blood work every 6-8 weeks he would have avoided it.
Key is regular blood work, especially if you're older.
 

A50#

Old School Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Registered
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
2,501
I don't think ai's are as bad for cholesterol as people think. I was taking 1 mg arimidex daily at the beginning of a cycle and hdl was 46 about 6 weeks in i got gyno and used 2.5mg letro daily to get rid of it and tanked my estrogen, sore joints, zero libido. Anyway, got blood work right at the end and hdl was 42. No orals were used.

I'm curious about how you got gyno on 1mg of Arimidex daily?
 

Landmonster

Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
978
Little slice makes a good point, AI can wreak havoc on triglycerides. Tamoxifen caused a family members Triglycerides to go over 4000!! He almost lost his pancreas. 3 weeks in the hospital, they did dialysis to remove the fat from his blood. There were bags of what looked like gravy!! Of course, if he has done blood work every 6-8 weeks he would have avoided it.
Key is regular blood work, especially if you're older.

I'd never heard of Nolvadex increasing triglycerides that much.

What dose was he taking? Is that common?


My biggest fear about Nolvadex was that it decreased IGF-1 levels supposedly. I had only read good things about its effects on cholesterol.
 

Elvia1023

Featured Member / Supp Guru / Board Supporter
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Board Supporter
Verified Customer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
24,171

2swole79

New member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
325
If Stewie, or anyone could explain a little more in layman's terms maybe rather than expand more scientifically on the original comment about progestins.....I basically comprehended that progestins= bad for HDL, but the more detailed explaination lost me further.....NPP has become kind of my go to anabolic to add to my TRT, as I can grow on it well, I can cut with it if needed, it's not 17aa it's mild on my hair, and doesn't bloat me very much, so I've got plenty of it. I do remember that thread where some study said it was like 10x as damaging to vascular tissue, but it's also been used and studied much more and longer in medical practice than most anabolics...
 

liv2pb

Active member
Registered
Joined
May 29, 2015
Messages
704
I'm curious about how you got gyno on 1mg of Arimidex daily?

Went to a gram of test for the first time (750 test c plus TNE pre workout) 600mg npp, and 600mg eq plus lots of peptides. I aromatise badly and need letro for higher cycles. I can't even look at dbol without getting gyno. I would say 90% of people are fine on a low dose arimidex protocol but if you overaromatize then your fucked.
 
Last edited:

Stewie

Featured Member / Verified Customer
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Verified Customer
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Messages
5,031
If Stewie, or anyone could explain a little more in layman's terms maybe rather than expand more scientifically on the original comment about progestins.....I basically comprehended that progestins= bad for HDL, but the more detailed explaination lost me further.....NPP has become kind of my go to anabolic to add to my TRT, as I can grow on it well, I can cut with it if needed, it's not 17aa it's mild on my hair, and doesn't bloat me very much, so I've got plenty of it. I do remember that thread where some study said it was like 10x as damaging to vascular tissue, but it's also been used and studied much more and longer in medical practice than most anabolics...

I understand it can be overwhelming and confusing trying to digest information that makes no sense if one has no interest with certain topics.

I'll try to explain it a little simpler. Progestins depending on their structure act either as an antiandrogen or have androgenic properties. Some stronger than other's dependent of their desired effect.

Your concerns are of the literature floating around showing nandrolones adverse effects on the vascular system. Simply put, what the researchers concluded is both testosterone and nandrolone increase blood levels of what's called a cation Ca2+ (calcium [which is a variety of minerals, e.g., copper, iron, calcium, ect, that create a charge]). When this action (calcium) is in abundance in blood-circulation, this in turn causes vasoconstriction. Occasionally not a bad thing. Long-term chronic vasoconstriction damages several systems in the vascular system. One namely, endothelial cells. This is where a calcium channel blocker "may" mitigate this action? Do I have facts to support this? No I don't, tho this makes logical sense according to the given literature.

The aforementioned is just one purposed detriments of not only testosterone, accordingly nandrolone exerts a more pronounced effect. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only study of its kind. Validation lies somewhere in between.

Taken together with my previous suggestive findings, this now creates an environment for that of HDL to possibly lose its protective effects on reverse cholesterol transport, antioxidant properties and possibly the involvement of atherosclerosis.

Hopefully you can understand this a bit more clearly?
 

Gunsmith

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
7,738
Letrozol and arimadex hands down tank my HDL faster than anything and dramatic increase in liver values.
 

musclemoose

Banned
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
716
orals (especially anavar and winstrol), tren, adex, letro...probably masteron



higher the dose = more side effects





4) Does Trenbolone harm lipids as much as orals? Or less so?

who knows? probably... they both do harm to lipids so why does it matter lmao

Tren knocked my cholesterol up 40 points. LDL was horrendous. Was heart attack waiting to happen. Wont touch it anymore.
 

2swole79

New member
Registered
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
325
Stewie, thanks brother! I started with an anti-aging doc this past year and have been tracking my bloods more and trying to learn. Appreciate it!
 

Staff online

  • rAJJIN
    Moderator / FOUNDING Member
  • LATS
    Moderator / FOUNDING Member / NPC Judge

Forum statistics

Total page views
506,826,269
Threads
124,405
Messages
2,396,902
Members
155,641
Latest member
grim3y1
Top