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Worst drugs for heart, in your experience

Golden

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I remeber that shit I was young and stupid and used it too it was called Ultimate Orange (fuck that was like late 90s early 2000s) wouldn’t touch that shit now if you paid me. I like stim free pump PWs though. Or just a bunch of arginine and vita C.
I remember somebody brought ultimate orange back to the uk in the 90’s, enough for most of the gym to buy! Tasted like pure evil. Everybody was used to ephedrine tablets but that ultimate orange blew my head right off. Never had anything before or after like it (iirc it was a Dan ducahine product)
 

xpoc

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I remember years ago one called orange I believe it's was called that.it was great.its been year's I don't touch pre workout.if I need one for a pump or to get my workout done then I think I need to stop working out.. if I'm taking a nap and wake up for gym time I might take a few sips of cuban coffee and im.good even though it dose nothing for me.but just to kinda trick the mode ha ha ha
Ultimate Orange...I believe it was created by underground steroid guru Dan Duchaine. That stuff would get you fired up ;-) Scroll through this article to the 1980s to see it: https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/04/10/a-history-of-pre-workout-supplements/
 

Sixfoottwo

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Agreed rec drugs are pretty much all a part of bodybuilders journeys, I’ve yet to meet a competitor that’s good that hasn’t done some, it’s like a virus we spread to each other in our 20s and 30s then try to stop in our 40s or at least that’s the trend I’ve seen over last two decades. Some are worse than others, blow bout killed Cormier out right. Titus introduced me to some stuff that caused me a lot of issues but the pre workout stuff out there is just poison. I mean there’s stuff out there now that just insane but even going back old school like NO Explode from BSN jacks you up more than street drugs and people tend to do blow on Friday Saturday these dudes now wake up with PW instead of coffee then often drink Monster all day and still take PW before gym. It’s common to see guys ingesting well north of 1,000 mg of caffeine daily and THEY WANT TO GROW MUSCLE !?!? Instead they enlarge their hearts. Go a year without caffeine and then drink green tea, it will wire you up that’s 30mg of caffeine which is nothing but in its long term absence it becomes a LOT.
I agree with the pre WO. There is this influencer/rapper/wannabe bodybuilder in my country who takes pre WO when he's a little tired, then another one before soccer, before mma training, before gym time and so on. Can't be healthy.
At a previous job of mine there was this really fat guy who took several scoops of pre workout before work and during lunch break because it made him sweat. He'd walk around in a sweater at a job where it was 40 degrees Celsius all the time with multiple scoops of pre. "I need to lose weight bro". That's not the way..
 

pimpman

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pimpman

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I agree with the pre WO. There is this influencer/rapper/wannabe bodybuilder in my country who takes pre WO when he's a little tired, then another one before soccer, before mma training, before gym time and so on. Can't be healthy.
At a previous job of mine there was this really fat guy who took several scoops of pre workout before work and during lunch break because it made him sweat. He'd walk around in a sweater at a job where it was 40 degrees Celsius all the time with multiple scoops of pre. "I need to lose weight bro". That's not the way..
Crazy shit people do bro
 

tweezor

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Clen. i find it pretty scary when you lay down and the heart goes on like a racing car. without knowing too much that cant be good for the heart
 

FIRE0808

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Yea that's it bro ultimate orange. Holly crap that was good for me back then.
Now at 51 if I drink any of the pre workout I think I die lol I swear
Mannnn... that bad boy is gold! Awesome stuff.
 

Swifto

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Anything that significantly effects lipids, RBC and blood pressure negatively.
 

marssel

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I remember somebody brought ultimate orange back to the uk in the 90’s, enough for most of the gym to buy! Tasted like pure evil. Everybody was used to ephedrine tablets but that ultimate orange blew my head right off. Never had anything before or after like it (iirc it was a Dan ducahine product)
Yea Dan is the father of the sport we now have he opened the doors to insulin, DNP, all the fringe shit that’s normal now. You rarely hear his name bc every guru now wants to act like they were the pioneers but it’s all bullshit. Our sport tends to neglect its history out of the arrogance of most of the people “running shit”. If you’re under 65 you didn’t do anything new
 

Type-IIx

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Agreed. And I think this answers the spirit of the OPs question. But heart disease (of any type) is secondary to everything you just mentioned.

For example, my father is 85 now. His cholesterol and triglycerides have been absolutely Polak horrendous for at least 40 years (probably all his life). So there is definitely a hereditary/genetic component here as well. My mother is 82. Hers is bad, too.

LVH isn't caused directly by steroids because LVH is found in non-bodybuilders as well. Same with hypertension and estrogen problems. Hypertension is the most common but it's not caused by the action of the heart either.

Need @Type-IIx to maybe describe what steroids attach to heart muscle receptors because I'm not certain. That would be the key.

So what most of us do, is work to prevent high LDL, hypertension, etc which can lead to heart disease. Even doing so, is absolutely no guarantee.

But at this point, I'm not aware of any steroidal compound that directly affects the heart. Definitely cause health conditions that put the heart at risk, though.
True, besides increasing CV event/CVD risk by indirectly promoting atherosclerosis, dyslipidemia, & pressure-induced LVH, there are also other factors that include:

Endothelial cell dysfunction (effects on the vascular endothelium [including by action on the RAAS]): AR is expressed in both endothelial & vascular smooth muscle cells. Through its rapid nongenomic pathways (e.g., PKA, PKC, MAPK), AAS can stimulate rapid vasoconstriction via endothelium-dependent & -independent mechanisms. Testosterone increases renin levels & expression/activity of ACE & AT1R, while downregulating AT2R, thereby favoring a vasoconstrictor pathway & enhances vascular responsiveness to Ang II. AAS may modulate development & maintenance of Ang II-induced hypertension & increase vascular contractility to pressors...

Variously, direct harmful cardiac effects of AAS include myocyte apoptosis, effect on electrolyte channels and their associated proteins of the cardiac cells, shifts in the redox balance towards more oxidative stress, changes in the ionotropic response to adrenergic activity.

There are some particularized harms to AAS that antagonize the MR (e.g., Tren), inhibiting the aldosterone-induced absorption of Na⁺ in the kidneys. The principal consequences of MR antagonism are electrolyte disturbances and the development of hypertension and cardiovascular disease.

And similarly, AAS that inhibit 11β-HSD2 (mediating cortisol oxidation), e.g., Test, Halo, Anadrol, have particularized cardiac harms. 11β-HSD2 is an enzyme that controls the oxidation of cortisol. Its inhibition leads to glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.

So generally, AAS with relative "flatness" or lacking "bulk," slide into the AR in a knife-like manner, but have broad homology for other nuclear receptors, including the MR; any effect on the MR by AAS is going to cause problems.

Generally, less potent, straightforwardly AR agonistic AAS (e.g., no effects on glucocorticoids, no effects on autocrine/paracrine IGF-I responsiveness) are relatively "heart healthy," i.e., those whose dose/response for increasing LBM are subject to a sigmoidal S-curve (e.g., Primo, Mast).
 

NEMSZ

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True, besides increasing CV event/CVD risk by indirectly promoting atherosclerosis, dyslipidemia, & pressure-induced LVH, there are also other factors that include:

Endothelial cell dysfunction (effects on the vascular endothelium [including by action on the RAAS]): AR is expressed in both endothelial & vascular smooth muscle cells. Through its rapid nongenomic pathways (e.g., PKA, PKC, MAPK), AAS can stimulate rapid vasoconstriction via endothelium-dependent & -independent mechanisms. Testosterone increases renin levels & expression/activity of ACE & AT1R, while downregulating AT2R, thereby favoring a vasoconstrictor pathway & enhances vascular responsiveness to Ang II. AAS may modulate development & maintenance of Ang II-induced hypertension & increase vascular contractility to pressors...

Variously, direct harmful cardiac effects of AAS include myocyte apoptosis, effect on electrolyte channels and their associated proteins of the cardiac cells, shifts in the redox balance towards more oxidative stress, changes in the ionotropic response to adrenergic activity.

There are some particularized harms to AAS that antagonize the MR (e.g., Tren), inhibiting the aldosterone-induced absorption of Na⁺ in the kidneys. The principal consequences of MR antagonism are electrolyte disturbances and the development of hypertension and cardiovascular disease.

And similarly, AAS that inhibit 11β-HSD2 (mediating cortisol oxidation), e.g., Test, Halo, Anadrol, have particularized cardiac harms. 11β-HSD2 is an enzyme that controls the oxidation of cortisol. Its inhibition leads to glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.

So generally, AAS with relative "flatness" or lacking "bulk," slide into the AR in a knife-like manner, but have broad homology for other nuclear receptors, including the MR; any effect on the MR by AAS is going to cause problems.

Generally, less potent, straightforwardly AR agonistic AAS (e.g., no effects on glucocorticoids, no effects on autocrine/paracrine IGF-I responsiveness) are relatively "heart healthy," i.e., those whose dose/response for increasing LBM are subject to a sigmoidal S-curve (e.g., Primo, Mast).

Sometimes……. I just really wish you would speak plainly and simply….

Like you can add a cliff note something like;

“All AAS do some form of ‘XYZ’ but the ‘safer’ ones are ‘ABC’ and the ones that cause the most harm are ‘EFG’.”

I love your posts and what you contribute, don’t get me wrong lol

But I still subscribe to the idea of

“if you can’t explain it to a 6 year old then you don’t understand it yourself”

I don’t want to come off in a negative way, but I’d guarantee that 99% of this board doesn’t understand a word you just wrote by just reading it without having to go down a major rabbit hole on Google…

I’m convinced I can make up a new screen name tomorrow and just copy and paste a bunch of summarized scientific literature and majority of this board would think I’m some guru…

It’s happened here before…

I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing by the way, just that cliff notes would be nice…

In short… I love your posts but man I sometimes have to do some crazy research to figure out what the hell you’re saying.. Lmao
 

Type-IIx

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Sometimes……. I just really wish you would speak plainly and simply….

Like you can add a cliff note something like;

“All AAS do some form of ‘XYZ’ but the ‘safer’ ones are ‘ABC’ and the ones that cause the most harm are ‘EFG’.”

I love your posts and what you contribute, don’t get me wrong lol

But I still subscribe to the idea of

“if you can’t explain it to a 6 year old then you don’t understand it yourself”

I don’t want to come off in a negative way, but I’d guarantee that 99% of this board doesn’t understand a word you just wrote by just reading it without having to go down a major rabbit hole on Google…

I’m convinced I can make up a new screen name tomorrow and just copy and paste a bunch of summarized scientific literature and majority of this board would think I’m some guru…

It’s happened here before…

I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing by the way, just that cliff notes would be nice…

In short… I love your posts but man I sometimes have to do some crazy research to figure out what the hell you’re saying.. Lmao
I. do. not. give. a. shit.
I was replying to OuchThatHurts, he's willing to take the post, follow it through with learning more about what he finds interesting about it, and knows enough to make sense of the post.
 

NEMSZ

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I. do. not. give. a. shit.
I was replying to OuchThatHurts, he's willing to take the post, follow it through with learning more about what he finds interesting about it, and knows enough to make sense of the post.

Are you always this much of an emotionally fragile little girl?

Don’t take the jokes so hard, it’s not a dick…

Calling it right now; this dude is another “TrinityD” if y’all remember him 😂😂😂😂
 

OuchThatHurts

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“All AAS do some form of ‘XYZ’ but the ‘safer’ ones are ‘ABC’ and the ones that cause the most harm are ‘EFG’.”
There. You just summarized it.
“if you can’t explain it to a 6 year old then you don’t understand it yourself”
Whoever said this to you is a complete idiot. Try explaining Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to a 6yr-old. Have fun with that. Biochemistry is the same deal. Someone once told me that the best way to understand something, is by being forced to teach it. What specifically do you want explained to you and maybe I can dumb it down for you into more, "tren bad, testosterone good" type language.
 

NEMSZ

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There. You just summarized it.

Whoever said this to you is a complete idiot. Try explaining Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to a 6yr-old. Have fun with that. Biochemistry is the same deal. Someone once told me that the best way to understand something, is by being forced to teach it. What specifically do you want explained to you and maybe I can dumb it down for you into more, "tren bad, testosterone good" type language.

I guess Albert Einstein was a complete idiot then?? 🤷🏻‍♂️

And honestly, it really is that simple, you literally just did it…

“In short, ABC good and XYZ bad”

It’s not quantum mechanics..

The guy has been asked on multiple occasions to elaborate and either he never does or he’ll say some dumb shit like “oh I can’t, only for clients”

Any moron can summarize a copy and pasted scientific paragraph and change a couple words around to act like they wrote it; I did that shit in high school… But do you understand it and can you “dumb it down?” If you can’t, then sorry, you don’t understand shit..

As I said, this guy is another “TrinityD” wannabe guru..

Just like Alex Kikel’s long winded ramblings using scientific jargon to confuse people into thinking he actually knows what he’s talking about then disguises his inability to be direct with “saving it for my high level clients” yet the mother fucker can’t post a single one of his “high level clients” and any client he does post looks like shit and he even goes on to make excuses for that as well..

Anyone can pretend to be a genius on the internet…
 

OuchThatHurts

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True, besides increasing CV event/CVD risk by indirectly promoting atherosclerosis, dyslipidemia, & pressure-induced LVH, there are also other factors that include:

Endothelial cell dysfunction (effects on the vascular endothelium [including by action on the RAAS]): AR is expressed in both endothelial & vascular smooth muscle cells. Through its rapid nongenomic pathways (e.g., PKA, PKC, MAPK), AAS can stimulate rapid vasoconstriction via endothelium-dependent & -independent mechanisms. Testosterone increases renin levels & expression/activity of ACE & AT1R, while downregulating AT2R, thereby favoring a vasoconstrictor pathway & enhances vascular responsiveness to Ang II. AAS may modulate development & maintenance of Ang II-induced hypertension & increase vascular contractility to pressors...
The above means that the cells lining the inner wall of capillaries and the muscle cells involved in constricting and dilating blood vessels are responsive to testosterone and analogues causing blood vessels to constrict. Remember that your diastolic blood pressure is the outward force on your capillary walls. If those walls constrict (tighten) the pressure rises = hypertension. Makes meds like ARBs seem fairly uniquely useful to users of steroids.
Variously, direct harmful cardiac effects of AAS include myocyte apoptosis, effect on electrolyte channels and their associated proteins of the cardiac cells, shifts in the redox balance towards more oxidative stress, changes in the ionotropic response to adrenergic activity.
Apoptosis (cell death) caused by reduction of electrolytes or electrolyte signaling to cell tissues. It's a push pull relationship. There is oxidative stress (oxidation) and antioxidant activity (why people take antioxidants). We need both. However, too great a shift to one or the other is not necessarily a good thing. But we know that excessive oxidation caused by many things including stress, training, environmental pollutants is not good. So people overdose the hell out of antioxidants (also not necessarily a good thing). There are free radicals and reactive oxygen species (ROS) that are produced inside cells. Also important in killing damaged or malfunctioning cells.
There are some particularized harms to AAS that antagonize the MR (e.g., Tren), inhibiting the aldosterone-induced absorption of Na⁺ in the kidneys. The principal consequences of MR antagonism are electrolyte disturbances and the development of hypertension and cardiovascular disease.
Mineralcorticoid Receptor (MR) but I don't need to explain why reduced Na (sodium) absorption is bad.
And similarly, AAS that inhibit 11β-HSD2 (mediating cortisol oxidation), e.g., Test, Halo, Anadrol, have particularized cardiac harms. 11β-HSD2 is an enzyme that controls the oxidation of cortisol. Its inhibition leads to glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.

So generally, AAS with relative "flatness" or lacking "bulk," slide into the AR in a knife-like manner, but have broad homology for other nuclear receptors, including the MR; any effect on the MR by AAS is going to cause problems.
Here's an example of where oxidation is necessary. I intend to do a more in-depth write-up on glucocorticoids, adrenaline, and nor-adrenaline and AAS. This is actually a very complicated bodily process that is impossible to summarize in a few words. Get anxiety on steroids? That's from adrenaline. You get the idea.
Generally, less potent, straightforwardly AR agonistic AAS (e.g., no effects on glucocorticoids, no effects on autocrine/paracrine IGF-I responsiveness) are relatively "heart healthy," i.e., those whose dose/response for increasing LBM are subject to a sigmoidal S-curve (e.g., Primo, Mast).
The sigmoid function is a mathematical function and creates a curve that starts out relatively flat, rises steeply, then levels off. The curve resembles an "S" so it is called a S-curve. Put simply, this means that what are commonly considered weak steroids whose dose respondent curve is relatively weak until dosage is increased to where the AR and MR begin to be more saturated have a more pronounced effect which then levels off. As opposed to most AAS which just straight line right up the graph as dosage increases. This was new information to me. Not the calculus, but rather the S-curve with certain compounds.

The stronger the compound, the more heart stress. But what @Type-IIx typed above is a wealth of information and there's a lot to unpack there. This is great information for AAS users to know. He shoudn't be chastised for it. Jeeez....
 

OuchThatHurts

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I guess Albert Einstein was a complete idiot then?? 🤷🏻‍♂️

And honestly, it really is that simple, you literally just did it…

“In short, ABC good and XYZ bad”

It’s not quantum mechanics..

The guy has been asked on multiple occasions to elaborate and either he never does or he’ll say some dumb shit like “oh I can’t, only for clients”

Any moron can summarize a copy and pasted scientific paragraph and change a couple words around to act like they wrote it; I did that shit in high school… But do you understand it and can you “dumb it down?” If you can’t, then sorry, you don’t understand shit..

As I said, this guy is another “TrinityD” wannabe guru..

Just like Alex Kikel’s long winded ramblings using scientific jargon to confuse people into thinking he actually knows what he’s talking about then disguises his inability to be direct with “saving it for my high level clients” yet the mother fucker can’t post a single one of his “high level clients” and any client he does post looks like shit and he even goes on to make excuses for that as well..

Anyone can pretend to be a genius on the internet…
You're just butthurt because he made you feel dumb about yourself. You probably are. But that's cool. Hopefully, you understood the summary. But don't come to professional muscle then cry if things read too complicated. If that's the case, just scroll past the post. Crying like a bitch isn't a good look for any bro.
 

NEMSZ

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You're just butthurt because he made you feel dumb about yourself. You probably are. But that's cool. Hopefully, you understood the summary. But don't come to professional muscle then cry if things read too complicated. If that's the case, just scroll past the post. Crying like a bitch isn't a good look for any bro.

Funny how because you’re a mod you can talk shit but if I say something to you then I get banned…

Im not butt hurt at all.. There’s tons of things in this world I don’t understand, if you claim to know it all then you’re probably the dumb one..

It was actually a compliment to the guy if you’d both get past your emotionally fragile egos and read what I said..

Funny how you guys (mods) try to get people to contribute and post etc yet will talk shit to members with complete disrespect under the threat of being banned…

Of course no one gives a fuck about this place anymore…

I don’t recall GotGame or Stewie talking shit to people when they didn’t understand something or were asked to break things down..

I may not know much about the subject Type-II was talking about, and again, I’ve got no shame in that and no ego when it comes to that at all.. Asking is how you learn, especially when you don’t have the time to go on a 3 hour Google search to “learn it yourself.”

But calling me dumb? Let me know if you want to compare taxes and bank accounts, see who’s really dumb… Lol, I’m close to half your age and have probably invested more money in the last year than you’ve made in the last 10…

Go ahead, waiting for my ban with the explanation “You need to chill out for a couple days, man” 🙄 lmao

PS: I don’t give a fuck what you reply to this, I won’t respond.. You can get back to your little circle jerk..
 

OuchThatHurts

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Funny how because you’re a mod you can talk shit but if I say something to you then I get banned…

Im not butt hurt at all.. There’s tons of things in this world I don’t understand, if you claim to know it all then you’re probably the dumb one..

It was actually a compliment to the guy if you’d both get past your emotionally fragile egos and read what I said..

Funny how you guys (mods) try to get people to contribute and post etc yet will talk shit to members with complete disrespect under the threat of being banned…

Of course no one gives a fuck about this place anymore…

I don’t recall GotGame or Stewie talking shit to people when they didn’t understand something or were asked to break things down..

I may not know much about the subject Type-II was talking about, and again, I’ve got no shame in that and no ego when it comes to that at all.. Asking is how you learn, especially when you don’t have the time to go on a 3 hour Google search to “learn it yourself.”

But calling me dumb? Let me know if you want to compare taxes and bank accounts, see who’s really dumb… Lol, I’m close to half your age and have probably invested more money in the last year than you’ve made in the last 10…

Go ahead, waiting for my ban with the explanation “You need to chill out for a couple days, man” 🙄 lmao

PS: I don’t give a fuck what you reply to this, I won’t respond.. You can get back to your little circle jerk.
You're welcome! Glad I could help.

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Type-IIx

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@NEMSZ OK hotshot, name one concept that Einstein put into terms that you were able to understand, and explain it to us.
 

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