Shawn Ray- Gurus, Killers & Liars

[BigTex]

Part II

Look I realize you are have a bias because admitted you are writing e-books with Shelby but have you objectively watched any of these videos? Women have come out with protocols in hand and said Shelby had them on aldactone for 1-3 months. THAT IS FUCKING REDICULOUS. Aldactone will shut down androgen receptor sites in that length of time. So much for putting on muscle mass or even keeping it for 1-3 months. How does this make any sense to you? It you have to take that much shit then your diet is fucked up.

If a client is getting rhabdo, you might think a coach would have the sense to tell her to back off the cardio/diuretics some. Instead he tells her to take more T3, more clen and increase the cardio and add another diuretic. This is IRRESONSIBLE! Are you aware that dehydration can also cause rabdo? Shelby must not be. Do you think high doses of diuretics for over a month are possibly responsible for a state of dehydration? Heck this causes irreversible kidney damage as well as cardiac problems. But by all mean take more diuretics and you will be OK. Again, go listen to the 1 hour 36 minute interview. Need a link? Was Shelby even listening to his clients? Hell, you can die quickly with rhabdo. Again, go listen to the video, this is not my words but those of women it happened to. My story is not second hand either. It happened to my wife that is sitting right here beside me just as pissed off over what she has heard. How can you take a women (MY WIFE) who worked hard enough, dieted enough and had a good enough combination of drugs to win the heavy weight division at a national meet, as well as over all and get a pro card and let he fail miserably in less than 3 months? A good coach makes athletes successful. not fail. REDICULOUS even defending this fraud. My wife was not trying to do a pro show but had ambitions to maybe enter as a master in the new physique division. NO WHERE NEAR as tough on the body as bodybuilding is. But she failed on Selby's watch and ended up under medical care. Its not because my wife wasn't willing to dedicate herself or put in the work. Its ONLY because Shelby gave her a BULLSHIT protocol that was not best for my wife's individual physiology and metabolism. So what the hell is the job of a COACH? Just take money? Obviously in Shelby's case (IMHO), taking money is the goal. When you have 480 clients a month to service and magically get 12 of them to do something then who gives a fuck about the more than 400 who maybe ended up in the hospital or died. It shouldn't be hard to get a national champion to win in another amateur division. This is not right and like others say, it time for Shelby to get the fuck out of coaching.

Is Shelby aware that high chronic administration of beta2-agonists (clen) have been shown to have toxic effects on the heart? Yet he has women taking 180mcg for a good period of time? You seriously think using high does of T3 doesn't cause the same issued? How about the huge synergistic effect of T3 and clen, combined with dehydration from all the diuretics combined with stimulants and the stress of exercise. This is a fast rack to death. You'd think a coach might think about this and be a slight bit more careful. Hey you want to dance with San la muerte do it on someone else's watch or on your own. 'But then it seem after 4 deaths and several hospitalizations Shelby might have a direct line with la muerte." Pal, that was a comment from my wife.

Buy the way, you might spend some time reading about AI's and the psychological effects. This has just come out in the last few years. NO did Never blamed TRT I specifically mentioned letrozol, read a little more carefully. Most of us who have been around a while know exactly who this doctor was without even mentioning his name or his screen name. He use to even post here I believe. Note the term WOMEN below, "especially women." Then I wonder why some of his clients on video talked about drastic mood swings and thoughts of suicide? Its always good to study pharmacology when you start pretending to be a doctor and advising people to take medication.

Letrozole and Depression - a phase IV clinical study of FDA data​

Summary:​

Depression is found among people who take Letrozole, especially for people who are female, 60+ old, have been taking the drug for 1 - 6 months.
The phase IV clinical study analyzes which people take Letrozole and have Depression.

Hope this gets back to Shelby. He will know by the screen name exactly who this is. I have no way to contact him any longer.

 

[b-boy]

O boy on some of that ketosis conversation......hmmmmmm?

 

[Dugbet]

If I have run behind Shelby checking everything he does when I don't have the time and making adjustments then why the fuck would I pay him $500 for a month? That is honestly stupid question and to most likely to cover for Shelby's irresponsibility and incompetency. If I pay a mechanic to fix my car and have to run behind them redoing what they did, why the fuck do I even pay them?

Exactly, if you pay a mechanic to tune up your car and when you return home you have an accident, he is responsible, not you.

If you pay someone, it is because that person will do the work for you. Isn't that the reason you hire a doctor, a painter, a mechanic or a trainer?

Many people here have blood analyzes, or they test their drugs, you pay an expert to do the work, you don't have to be an expert in chemistry and test your own blood or your own drugs to verify if the experts you pay they are doing the job well.

You have faith and credibility in these experts and their instruments.

 

[BigNJ]

@BigTex Post the protocol if you have it. You keep saying I have the Protocol, post it and let's see.

 

[Kaladryn]

Exactly, if you pay a mechanic to tune up your car and when you return home you have an accident, he is responsible, not you.

If you pay someone, it is because that person will do the work for you. Isn't that the reason you hire a doctor, a painter, a mechanic or a trainer?

Many people here have blood analyzes, or they test their drugs, you pay an expert to do the work, you don't have to be an expert in chemistry and test your own blood or your own drugs to verify if the experts you pay they are doing the job well.

You have faith and credibility in these experts and their instruments.

You are making all sorts of equivalencies that don't actually exist in this post.

 

[Kaladryn]

Part II

Look I realize you are have a bias because admitted you are writing e-books with Shelby but have you objectively watched any of these videos? Women have come out with protocols in hand and said Shelby had them on aldactone for 1-3 months. THAT IS FUCKING REDICULOUS. Aldactone will shut down androgen receptor sites in that length of time. So much for putting on muscle mass or even keeping it for 1-3 months. How does this make any sense to you? It you have to take that much shit then your diet is fucked up.

If a client is getting rhabdo, you might think a coach would have the sense to tell her to back off the cardio/diuretics some. Instead he tells her to take more T3, more clen and increase the cardio and add another diuretic. This is IRRESONSIBLE! Are you aware that dehydration can also cause rabdo? Shelby must not be. Do you think high doses of diuretics for over a month are possibly responsible for a state of dehydration? Heck this causes irreversible kidney damage as well as cardiac problems. But by all mean take more diuretics and you will be OK. Again, go listen to the 1 hour 36 minute interview. Need a link? Was Shelby even listening to his clients? Hell, you can die quickly with rhabdo. Again, go listen to the video, this is not my words but those of women it happened to. My story is not second hand either. It happened to my wife that is sitting right here beside me just as pissed off over what she has heard. How can you take a women (MY WIFE) who worked hard enough, dieted enough and had a good enough combination of drugs to win the heavy weight division at a national meet, as well as over all and get a pro card and let he fail miserably in less than 3 months? A good coach makes athletes successful. not fail. REDICULOUS even defending this fraud. My wife was not trying to do a pro show but had ambitions to maybe enter as a master in the new physique division. NO WHERE NEAR as tough on the body as bodybuilding is. But she failed on Selby's watch and ended up under medical care. Its not because my wife wasn't willing to dedicate herself or put in the work. Its ONLY because Shelby gave her a BULLSHIT protocol that was not best for my wife's individual physiology and metabolism. So what the hell is the job of a COACH? Just take money? Obviously in Shelby's case (IMHO), taking money is the goal. When you have 480 clients a month to service and magically get 12 of them to do something then who gives a fuck about the more than 400 who maybe ended up in the hospital or died. It shouldn't be hard to get a national champion to win in another amateur division. This is not right and like others say, it time for Shelby to get the fuck out of coaching.

Is Shelby aware that high chronic administration of beta2-agonists (clen) have been shown to have toxic effects on the heart? Yet he has women taking 180mcg for a good period of time? You seriously think using high does of T3 doesn't cause the same issued? How about the huge synergistic effect of T3 and clen, combined with dehydration from all the diuretics combined with stimulants and the stress of exercise. This is a fast rack to death. You'd think a coach might think about this and be a slight bit more careful. Hey you want to dance with San la muerte do it on someone else's watch or on your own. 'But then it seem after 4 deaths and several hospitalizations Shelby might have a direct line with la muerte." Pal, that was a comment from my wife.

Buy the way, you might spend some time reading about AI's and the psychological effects. This has just come out in the last few years. NO did Never blamed TRT I specifically mentioned letrozol, read a little more carefully. Most of us who have been around a while know exactly who this doctor was without even mentioning his name or his screen name. He use to even post here I believe. Note the term WOMEN below, "especially women." Then I wonder why some of his clients on video talked about drastic mood swings and thoughts of suicide? Its always good to study pharmacology when you start pretending to be a doctor and advising people to take medication.

Letrozole and Depression - a phase IV clinical study of FDA data​

Summary:​

Depression is found among people who take Letrozole, especially for people who are female, 60+ old, have been taking the drug for 1 - 6 months.
The phase IV clinical study analyzes which people take Letrozole and have Depression.

Hope this gets back to Shelby. He will know by the screen name exactly who this is. I have no way to contact him any longer.

Honestly you are going further and further off the "deep end" with these posts. You admit in your 2nd sentence that you are going off 2nd/3rd hand information, not just your experience with your wife. You are using this 3rd hand information to backup your 1st hand experience? There are so many other logical fallacies in your writing, I don't know where to start. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm saying you aren't thinking through and making logical connections. You are saying physique division isn't as hard on the body as bodybuilding? You are saying rabdo is caused by diuretics and cardio? It's not if the person is consuming enough water. Now taking diuretics and NOT drinking enough water, that could get you in trouble.

The fact that you are mixing you own experience with all this rumor BS is a problem.

I only wrote The Healthy Bodybuilder with Shelby and I have worked with him as a coach. I found him conservative, safe, personalized, detailed, and effective.

 

[Kaladryn]

You are absolutely defending Shelby and yes you have no idea what happened. I guess Blue Taylor is a liar then? I guess Stephanie Foster is full of shit? Boston has to be lying too? Shelby trained his wife. You are so biased it stinks. I have his protocol here and I have over $2000 in doctor's bills in my hands. My wife is right next to me. This AINT 2nd hand BULLSHIT.

When I heard these videos I was shocked at how these women got the same fucked up protocol as my wife did and some even worse. 2nd hand info.......no mine is 1st hand. So why do I do this? Shelby needs to wake the fuck up and start caring about he WOMEN who give him money? When someone dies take some responsibility and change what the fuck you are doing. When 4 people die, many end up in the hospital and other totally fail its time you get out of the business. In a perfect word this might be considered involuntary manslaughter. With it being bodybuilders I am afraid no one gives a fuck. I don't post on this board much but have been around here since 2009. What got me her this time is I just happened to log on and see the Shawn Wray video. When I heard Shelby's name mentioned I WAS SHOCKED. The disappointment I had in my wife's experience returned. As I looked at more video not believing what I was hearing, I honestly got PISSED OFF. My wife could have been Shelby's 1st victim. I got mad again because I saw a guy who I knew and trusted FUCKED me with this BULLSHIT protocol that was nothing close to being personalized for my wife.

Absolutely NO I don't follow any of these so called coaches, including Shelby. Yes, I know who most of them are. Why should FOLLOW, I spent 27 years lifting competitively and was ranked #1 and #2 in the world in 2 weight classes. I set 14 worlds records. I was a strength coach for many years and have been working in nutrition for most of the career. I teach nutrition and exercise physiology at the college level so why would I follow Shelby? I am certainly not in his fan club or any other coach. I did know Shelby and felt like I could trust him to help my wife. That was a mistake. I should have spoken up 8 year ago but didn't want to make waves. Just a lesson in life.

You don't know why I didn't adjust her diet? Seriously bro, you are showing a huge amount of bias. You obviously have never had a job where you worked 7 days a week 12-15 hour a day. I was lucky to be able to drive 45 miles go to my own bed to sleep and then back. Didn't I make that clear a few times? THUS, I paid someone I though I could trust to help my wife. If I have run behind Shelby checking everything he does when I don't have the time and making adjustments then why the fuck would I pay him $500 for a month? That is honestly stupid question and to most likely to cover for Shelby's irresponsibility and incompetency. If I pay a mechanic to fix my car and have to run behind them redoing what they did, why the fuck do I even pay them? Yeah, I know Shelby too and have known him since maybe 2010, at least I thought I did. Yes I FUCKED UP and should have never wasted a dime. I FUCKED UP and should have exposed him 8 years ago after my wife spent over $2000 in an endocrinologist office. But I kept my mouth shut about it. After seeing these videos and realize someone I thought I knew and trusted FUCKED me with a bullshit cut and past protocol I am even more pissed. The same BULLSHIT that everyone else seems to get and the same BULLSHIT that killed 4 women. My wife was lucky to not be the 1st to die.

You are absolutely wrong a about ketones. In order to be in ketosis you have to have less than 50g/d of carbohydrate and very low carbohydrate diet is not a ketogenic diet. My wife has both keto strips and a blood ketone meter and tested herself on this BULLSHIT diet and there was not a trace of ketones either way. She kept doing the diet because I trusted Shelby to do the right thing. I had this very discussion in length about ketosis and Shelby was present years back. There is a huge misconception that low carb and high protein is Keto. WRONG. High fat is keto. In order for the liver to produce the ketones acetoacetate levels(urine), β-hydroxybutyrate (blood) and acetone (breath) there has to be an absence of carbohydrate in the diet. This has been determined to be less than 50g/d for most. DEPENDING on how much protein you take in. Now Shelby had my wife, who weighed in @ 78kg on 226g of protein/d. On a keto diet you can't take in any more than 1.2 - 2g/kg of protein, this would have been 98-156g protein/d for my wife. Now why is this important, because research has shown that more than this amount quickly converts to glucose through gluconeogenesis. Now you are kicked out of ketosis because there is ample glucose in the body to function and ketones are not needed. Fats....dietary fat in order to be in ketosis has to be >150g/d. So a diet taking in 40% fat is NOT keto. Bro, I can't count how much research I have read over this how many experts I have discussed this with like Dr. Steve Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek and even Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale, since the 80's. My wife has been researching this since about then too and been on a ketogenic diet most of her life. But she trusted Shelby to do the right thing. It is a very simple thing to test to see if you are in any form of fashion of ketosis...1) urine (keto strips) which test for acetoacetate; blood ketone machine which test for β-hydroxybutyrate and breath, which test for acetone. If you are not showing a trace of ketones you are not in ketosis and still burning glucose. Very low carbohydrate diets are not ketogenic diets and ketones are not being produced. Very low carb diets are typically >50g to 150g of carbs/d.

So is it uncommon to burn fat at rest? Absolutely not, at rest, fat constitutes as much as 85 percent of calories burned. The breakdown of fatty acids, called fatty acid oxidation or beta (β)-oxidation which is converted into acetyl CoA, to be used by the KREBS cycle which later on produces ATP for energy. If excessive acetyl CoA is created from the oxidation of fatty acids and the Krebs cycle is overloaded and cannot handle it, the acetyl CoA is diverted to create ketone bodies. Therefore, when glucose levels/carbohydrate intake are low, triglycerides can be converted into acetyl CoA molecules and used to generate ATP through aerobic respiration (see above). This is NOT ketosis but lipolysis. Ketosis does not happen quickly and the body must be depleted of glucose for a long period of time. That certainly doesn't mean we are in ketosis at rest. Hell test it for yourself. IN order for the body to be in ketosis β-hydroxybutyrate, acetoacetate, and acetone levels produced n the liver have to be detectable, that takes more than sleep or rest. This is not going to happen UNLESS you take in less than 50g of carbohydrate per day. Sleeping, rest or what ever you want to do. Just the blood glucose levels dropping does not signify ketosis.

Again in this post, you are mixing your 1st hand information, which isn't extreme at all and is totally reasonable from what you have posted, with your secondhand information. Do you know Bostin Loyd is considered a total joke by most? He's one of the dumbest, most reckless people on the internet.

As for all that keto stuff, you are posting a bunch of textbook info, in real-life low carb diets that aren't full keto diets work very well and lots of people use them for contest prep. EVERYONE is going to use very low carb diets at some point in their prep, and many bodybuilders want carbs to train with even on these low carb diets, it's standard practice pretty much.

This is practical application of diets in bodybuilding vs basic personal training manual keto information you are presenting.

 

[BigTex]

Everyone has access to every research paper. Scott Stevenson has posted the link several times to look up any paper for free. He lists it in a lot of his podcasts too. You were informed way back then….there’s no excuse not to be informed now with today’s advancements in technology.

You are so right. In a perfect world. I put nothing in my mouth I have not looked well into. Even when my doctor tells me to. I feel, like you that this is the only way to be. However, like I told you, my GP loves me because I ask educated questions about my health and have already done my du-diligence before I ever come see him. He say patients just don't do this. Why is why in America we need government and doctors to hold our hand and tell us what to do. Yet in less educated countries you can walk in any farmacia and buy medication. The people working this have loads of pharmacological information yet they are not licensed pharmacists. I give out research papers in college classes and it might as well be German. I have to translate. I have spent quite a few years on the internet putting up related research and translating it to a language anyone can understand and how it relates to what we do in the trenches. NEVER have I charged a dime for the work. Absolutely people need to educated them selves but then that kind of puts the old GURU out to pasture. Why pay them for information you can get yourself for free. I feel the same way about personal trainers and have taught 100's of adults how to properly set up a sound training program and walk into any gym and at least be able to get your self fit. The information is all over the place but no one looks, its much easier to have things spoon fed to you. But that is a problem bigger than the both of us. I have never given a dime to a trainer, coach, nutritionist to get as far as I got in powerlifting. Let's face it, much of this is trial and error since we are all not equal. The same drugs/doses that cause no side effects to young guys devastate me. Age has a lot to do with how we clear drugs. I can drink a 1/2 a cup of coffee for breakfast and I am looped. Yet I know people who drink it all day long. Yohimbine...I tried once and a very small dose and though I was going to have a heart attack. No way I would ever try clenbuterol of T3. I pulled an 800lb deadlift at 275 using 250mg of test e and nothing else. Squatted 950 easily and a 3rd attempt with the same weekly dose of test. Never done any AIs, I always did ow dose HCG during a cycle and honestly never needed need that crap. As I have gotten older, I do blood work minimum of 2 times a year. I pay cash and read it myself, then turn it over my doctor. Not for his advice but to keep it on file. These people including my case are definitely responsible. But IMHO it is also the responsibility of a coach to give out protocols that are personalized for the athlete and not going to put them in the hospital. He should also encourage the client to do their homework on anything they take. When things go bad you absolutely have to redirect. There is absolutely no shame in pulling out of a contest. I have done it many times. Trying to cover for mistakes by taking more drugs is stupid. Might lose a client but then you don't need people who are bound and determined to fuck themselves up at any cost.

 

[Dugbet]

I only wrote The Healthy Bodybuilder with Shelby and I have worked with him as a coach. I found him conservative, safe, personalized, detailed, and effective.

All we have here are opinions, first, second or third hand.

You accuse others of having an agenda

- What is Bigtex's agenda, what is he gaining with all this?

- Why Stephanie would want to take Shelby down, maybe to favor her current coach? But she hasn't even mentioned her name once.

- Leo and Bostin have an agenda, they want visitors and be relevant on youtube.

- You have an agenda, you have a personal interest in defending a person who according to your experience was a "detailed and effective" coach.

You also wrote a book about him, which shows that you admire his knowledge.

 

[Dugbet]

You are making all sorts of equivalencies that don't actually exist in this post.

I don't know if it's the language barrier, but I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[Kaladryn]

BTW, when I worked with Shelby, we discussed protocols, we discussed the dosages, I expressed my concerns, he came back with reasonable explanations.

Example: the clen dosage I started at was very low, it slowly went up, the final dosage was fairly high, but it was for a very short period and by that time my clen tolerance was pretty high.

I'm well aware of the possible heart issues with clen and was willing to take that risk. It wasn't up to him to explain that risk to me, clen is so commonly used, it's completely my responsibility to know what that risk is.

This isn't "he has zero responsibility" or "I have all responsibility" this is a reasonable middle ground. This goes on all the time in the medical world as well, many doctors are happy to prescribe things that I would not be comfortable with by my own risk assessment.

 

[BigTex]

Honestly you are going further and further off the "deep end" with these posts. You admit in your 2nd sentence that you are going off 2nd/3rd hand information, not just your experience with your wife. You are using this 3rd hand information to backup your 1st hand experience? There are so many other logical fallacies in your writing, I don't know where to start. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm saying you aren't thinking through and making logical connections. You are saying physique division isn't as hard on the body as bodybuilding? You are saying rabdo is caused by diuretics and cardio? It's not if the person is consuming enough water. Now taking diuretics and NOT drinking enough water, that could get you in trouble.

The fact that you are mixing you own experience with all this rumor BS is a problem.

I only wrote The Healthy Bodybuilder with Shelby and I have worked with him as a coach. I found him conservative, safe, personalized, detailed, and effective.

Deep end.....had I known what I know now 8 years ago, it would have been much further than the deep end, trust me. I am still, at my wife request too, going to get her story out. There will be someone who reads it and has 2nd thoughts about who they hire to coach them. I realize Shelby's minions will probably come out and attack but I am OK with that. No problem with it. I am not promoting myself as I have a job, not promoting myself as a body builder because I am not one, I am a pretty well known retired powerlifter. I have no vested interest in this shit because I want no money and honestly don't give a fuck what becomes of Shelby Starnes. I do hope the grows a conscience some time in the future and learns to give a fuck about what he does to his clients who trust him to make the right decision. I also hope the IFBB wakes the fuck up and starts banning these coaches who have such a horrible track record. The athletes that are passing out also need to be out of contests until they can medically show they are healthy enough to compete again. This kind of shit draw bad attention to the whole sport. If it isn't self regulated the government is going to step in and start passing laws for us. One of my close fiends had to testify in front of congress over a baseball player using fucking GH. Wasn't such a fun experience and frankly it put his gym out of business because of all the bad publicity. The WWE also went through this a few years back along with the NFL and pro baseball.

Dude you are absolute being insulting. You also have a problem even reading the content I write. You have no idea what you are talking about then you discount what others say as rumor and BS. Like I said, go tell Bostin he is full of shit. Tell Stephanie she is passing on bullshit. Hell for that matter go listen to the video. Honestly kind of makes it not worth my time to even debate this with you. I have gone public with my wife's story. It makes no difference whether you agree or believe it. This ain't about you. Its about Shelby and the rest who do stupid shit like Shelby does.

 

[Kaladryn]

@BigTex The protocols you posted that he gave your wife are pretty standard in this industry.

You sound like you are promoting the war on drugs and are anti-PED. I don't understand why you would mess with PEDs at all with this attitude.

"This kind of shit draw bad attention to the whole sport." lol, we are talking about BODYBUILDING here, the most drugged sport of all time!

"The WWE also went through this a few years back along with the NFL and pro baseball." Honestly, this forum is the wrong place for this, we are FOR PEDs here.

 

[BigTex]

@BigTex Post the protocol if you have it. You keep saying I have the Protocol, post it and let's see.

Some it I posted. I adequately describe much of it it earlier, I even analyzed the diet that was given. I also put up the blank questionnaire that he sent. Like I said, Shelby will remember me when he sees the screen name. He knows who I am. Still have copies of two brief email he sent. Here, I didn't post this

Hi XXXXX,

Here is a questionnaire to fill out, and I'll also need some current pics (see below for instructions):

- Always use a FLASH in the pics – I don’t want shadows.

- Take them in front of a PLAIN WHITE background.

- Send a FRONT and BACK pic – full body (head to toe)

- Always take your pics at the same time of day, with the same amount of food / water in you.

- For WOMEN – wear your posing suit if you’re a competitor, and for others wear shorts (not long shorts – I want to see your thighs) and a sports bra. Competitors – send your quarter turns, and for bodybuilders/WPD send a front and rear double bicep pose.

- Also, always resize the pics so they are about the size of a postcard on my screen.


You’ll be sending me new pics weekly – always follow the instructions above. If you don’t send me proper pics, I can’t tell you what to do next. This is very important

The questionnaire that I previously posted goes here and I did leave this off:

Thanks, I look forward to working with you.



Respectfully,

Shelby Starnes

 

[BigTex]

@BigTex The protocols you posted that he gave your wife are pretty standard in this industry.

You sound like you are promoting the war on drugs and are anti-PED. I don't understand why you would mess with PEDs at all with this attitude.

"This kind of shit draw bad attention to the whole sport." lol, we are talking about BODYBUILDING here, the most drugged sport of all time!

"The WWE also went through this a few years back along with the NFL and pro baseball." Honestly, this forum is the wrong place for this, we are FOR PEDs here.

Really, my wife has been in this game for over 20 years she never resorted to this so called standard. I competed for 27 years. In powerlifting most are drugged too, but we manage to keep it under the table a little better. I still workout 5 days for 1.5 hours a week, plus cardio and still do AAS, GH, IGF-1 etc and at 65 years old I can most likely make most here look weak in the gym. Did I also mention that I do HTC every day of my life and have for over 10 years? Your anti-PED comments are just as ridiculous as the rest of them you keep making.

I guess since you feel you are a moderator you should have deleted Shawn Wray's video an this subject would not have come up. When shit like this goes public, people like me may read it and get pissed off again and say something. But then no one forced you to read my posting or keep commenting. Now let me make this clear one more time. I am PISSED off that I found out a guy who I knew and trusted FUCKED me and my wife out of $500 with some impersonal cut and past protocol that put her under medical care. I would react just the same if a trusted source fucked me on a product. I am even more pissed that I found out other women got the same impersonal, BULLSHIT protocol and some even died. What part of that don't you understand? Most husbands would be so pissed Shelby might have ended up in the hospitalized.

 

[FK86]

- The competitor should find out on their own what the effects are of the drugs they are going to be taking. Then they can decide if they wish to move forward with them.

- They hire the coach to help them utilize the drugs in terms of dose and timing.

- For those saying that this is also the competitors responsibility, what are they paying the coach for? If I was a competitor and had to do that much work I'd just prep myself.

- If the coach writes something that jeopardizes health and life, it is their fault. The competitor is paying for the guidance of someone that is more knowledgeable than them. If the competitor has to be more knowledgeable than the coach, the coach is fired and coaching becomes obsolete.

 

[dantes]

This isn't an opinion on Shelby or Kaldryn one way or another. I do not care about the issue.
Kaladryn wrote a book with Shelby so it makes sense he'd wish his credibility to remain in tact.

Funny then he says everyone here has an agenda when he clearly has

Yes and of course. People do crazy experiments. Definitely not needed. Look at someone like John Jewett as a great example of getting bone dry without using heavy diuretics. I suppose the thought process for many is the less water you consume the drier your body will be. This is precisely why even in recent stories only a small black coffee was recommend on show day and nothing else and some girls went near 2 days without fluids if their show went over 2 days. That is all common stuff and people have done it for years because it can work. Some details have been released before but you never know what is true but I would love to see what guys like Mutzer and Benaziza took. Now those 2 would have done very extreme protocols.

Guys know which "side" I am on because some of these stories are quite frankly shocking. No surprises at all though. The issue is and like the "me too" movement you get girls come out bad mouthing coaches because they were put on standard cycles but just felt horrible due to being in contest prep. It's important not to tar some coaches with the same brush. Fact is bodybuilding involves drugs and sometimes quite a lot of them. However some of these stories are just crazy coming out and these coaches are fucking many people up. Some of the biggest bikini coaches putting girls who have only just started competing on crazy drug cycles (multiple different compounds) and for bikini. We all knew this went on but it's one thing seeing the protocol involving things like clen, t3, caffeine, nolva, aromasin, winny, avar, mast and even tren for bikini girls weighing next to nothing.

i used to work with a girl who competed for n bikini and she had only been training like 3 months then decided to she wanted to prep and compete and her coach had her take a decent amount stuff nothing crazy but why have someone take stuff after 3 months training? She didn’t even know to train properly I lifted with her a few times and I never saw her even mildly exert herself. Had her coach taught her to train right she could have made just as much gains without drugs but seems people mainly get coaches for drugs nobody seems to care for training which in mind is what this hobby is all about

 

[Dugbet]

- For those saying that this is also the competitors responsibility, what are they paying the coach for? If I was a competitor and had to do that much work I'd just prep myself.

- If the coach writes something that jeopardizes health and life, it is their fault. The competitor is paying for the guidance of someone that is more knowledgeable than them. If the competitor has to be more knowledgeable than the coach, the coach is fired and coaching becomes obsolete.

Exactly.

I don't understand how some people think, so, you pay a drug, diet, training, posing expert... but in the same time you must do the work on gaining knowledge in those areas?

No, you pay because you don't want to or can't put the time and effort to learn about it all. (Personally, I like to be self-taught and I would not pay anyone for knowledge, but I can understand why others want to do it.)

If you put the time and effort into learning, you will not pay anyone. That's is, if all athletes did the work of coming to a place like this forum to learn, the prep guru business wouldn't exist.

 

[KillerStack]

At the end of the day, no matter where you stand on this issue, the gurus are here to stay. Requiring them to not prescribe drugs would just drive the whole thing underground. And talking about safer protocols, what exactly is safe? There is no drug use that is safe. Where do you draw the line wrt drugs? Ask Emeric and you will hear anything more than 10mg of test a day is insanity. For a male. No matter your goal, 10mg! Lol. We are talking about the acute dangers of diuretics for women, which is fair, but what about the androgens? Female bodybuilders may have an androgen load 10x that of female to male transexuals. I have a couple of female pros at my gym and I always think they are completely and utterly fucked, everyone just feels sorry for them. And this is male bodybuilders, they think the women are so tragic. The looks, the mannerisms. We hear from BigTex that his wife was helped by a doc in the past. I can guarantee that the medical establishment will see this doc as completely unethical who should lose his doctor's licence. I would bet that most people demand more from an actual doctor vs a guru. Does the doc know what he is doing as opposed to a guru? Well he should know that his lab rats are getting fucked by his protocols as long as there are androgens involved. No diuretics or stimulants, whoopdedoo. See the data on East German women who were doped by docs. Several made a transition to males, many had all sorts of medical issues the docs blamed on the drug regimen. And they took only a few odd milligrams, wouldn't even last a modern FBB through breakfast. I'm for personal freedom but let's not pretend that female bodybuilding is wonderful all around as long as you don't take more than one diuretic or go over 20mcg of clen. It destroys women.

I think that Stephanie girls now says she contacted an attorney to bring a civil suit against Shelby?

 

[BigNJ]

Most of these women have issues. It's not hard to miss.
Any woman who takes androgens and other shit whether she competes or not is obviously not in her right mind.
It's one thing to train and take some fat burners or some stimulants but Androgens?
Female bodybuilding is fucking disgusting and disturbing.