Protein + carbs vs. protein + fats, low fat, keto, insulin, etc, THREAD

[Cerberus777]

Carbs don't get store in adipose much because they are converted into fatty acids by the liver first. There's no free lunch with excess calories. Even keto can make you fat. But it's harder due to low insulin and it is easier on the body to burn fat in a deficit since fat becomes the preferred energy source. One in keto PSMF for 3 days is magic with out feeling terrible.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I call bullshit on the whole '98% of fat originated as dietary fat' premise. Most weeks I eat hardly any carbs at all. If what he's saying were true, why is it so hard to get fat eating just proteins and fats? Seems odd to me the concept of a near hypoglycemic fat guy.

In 2016, 39.8% of American adults were obese (BMI > 30 Kg/m2). This either points to serious flaws in diets nationwide or a serious flaw in the way modern BMI is calculated. Probably a bit of both but any public beach will tell the tale and it's not a pretty picture. A very high percentage of the public (I'd guess 90%+) are living off a diet principally consisting of processed catrbs.

And it ain't workin'

 

[Biggerp73]

America is obese because of the low fat guidelines. Just a few years ago everything was about low fat but America got even fatter. So what was happening with these low fat people.

Refined grains and sugars can and will be stored as fat when eaten in excess

They weren't eating low fat.

No I was a chubby kid, I wore "husky" size jeans when I was younger.

Regardless, you staying lean isn't relevant. If you want anecdotes, I've lost and gained far more weight, far more many times than you have. And when I'm not lean, it's not because I've been eating carbs. It's because I've been eating high fat junk food (fried foods, chips, Mexican food, Chinese food, etc etc). I've never once gotten fat by eating rice, bananas, bread, potatoes, watermelon. Or even by eating sour patch kids, skittles, gummy bears, and any other kind of high sugar zero fat candy. I can binge on those and not gain fat as long as I keep my fat intake to zero.

 

[Biggerp73]

Carbs don't get store in adipose much because they are converted into fatty acids by the liver first. There's no free lunch with excess calories. Even keto can make you fat. But it's harder due to low insulin and it is easier on the body to burn fat in a deficit since fat becomes the preferred energy source. One in keto PSMF for 3 days is magic with out feeling terrible.

That's not what the study said. Metabolic tracers would follow the carbs through the process of de novo lipogenesis.

Yes absolutely keto can make you fat. The quickest I ever gained fat in my life was on keto, I was smoking weed and ate a family sized jar of peanut butter like three nights in a row. Pure immediate fat gain. There's nothing your body can do with excess fat other than store it as fat.

 

[Biggerp73]

I call bullshit on the whole '98% of fat originated as dietary fat' premise. Most weeks I eat hardly any carbs at all. If what he's saying were true, why is it so hard to get fat eating just proteins and fats? Seems odd to me the concept of a near hypoglycemic fat guy.

In 2016, 39.8% of American adults were obese (BMI > 30 Kg/m2). This either points to serious flaws in diets nationwide or a serious flaw in the way modern BMI is calculated. Probably a bit of both but any public beach will tell the tale and it's not a pretty picture. A very high percentage of the public (I'd guess 90%+) are living off a diet principally consisting of processed catrbs.

And it ain't workin'

99% of Americans don't live on a low fat diet. The processed carbs they eat are mixed with tons of fats.

You can stay lean on a low carb diet because it's a low calorie diet.

 

[Biggerp73]

You eat excess fat - there's nothing your body can do with it. It's fat. It becomes fat. Very easy and simple.

You eat excess carbs, there's virtually always somewhere in the body that can use a little extra glycogen. If not, the carbs can't go straight to fat. They have to go through an inefficient process of de novo lipogenesis before they can get converted to fat.

And what benefit is there to excess fat? It's not really anabolic or protein sparing. Excess carbs, however, are definitely protein sparing, even if not anabolic. Plus the extra glycogen helps fuel training.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

99% of Americans don't live on a low fat diet. The processed carbs they eat are mixed with tons of fats.

You can stay lean on a low carb diet because it's a low calorie diet.

I lossed 50lbs this past year, 1/5th of my total body weight, on a 6000, 4000, then 3000 calorie CKD and keto diet. Muscles were spared the deluge of catobolysis by being in a state of ketosis. My blood glucose is a healthy 67mg avg, and my insulin sensitivity is rocking high. Saying fat has nowhere to go except to adipose tissue is just silly.

 

[Cerberus777]

That's not what the study said. Metabolic tracers would follow the carbs through the process of de novo lipogenesis.

Yes absolutely keto can make you fat. The quickest I ever gained fat in my life was on keto, I was smoking weed and ate a family sized jar of peanut butter like three nights in a row. Pure immediate fat gain. There's nothing your body can do with excess fat other than store it as fat.

If you eat a low fat high carb diet than sure this is what you're convinced the body to use. But if you eat a high fat low carb diet guess what happens. The human body is very adaptable. You get fat when you mix the two either get stored if there's an excess in calories. The body runs optimal when fat is the primary source of energy and carbs are used prior to heavy labor and burned up before done so insulin sensitivity stays high and inflammation stays low. CKD, Skiploading, the Anabolic Diet all work on this principle to a point.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Note: I never do protein/fat/carb meals. Either protein and fats (usually throw in some vegetables to help pull water through the intestines during digestion) or protein and carbs w/fruits and veggies (loading phase).

I never mix carbs and fats.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I was talking to a girl with whom I just started asking some probing dietary questions. One thing I sometimes do is ask them to take a photo of their refrigerator right at that moment. This is what she sent me. Pathetic. Aside from the eggs and almond milk, everything else should go in the trash. 90% garbage.

 

[qbkilla]

Im a bit confused what people are saying, I understand some people like high carbs some like high fat.....

My maintenance is 3k, if I eat more, I will gain weight rapidly depending on how much. 185, 190, 200, 220, 240, I have no issue gaining weight or eating alot of food.

But I gain a small amount of LMB and alot of fat, no matter how clean, what type of diet. I have never tried to completely eliminate either carbs or fat

Are the fat/protein, 0 carbs people claiming that I can eat 3500 of protein/fat (0 carbs) and I will not gain fat?

Are the carbs/protein, 0 fat people claiming that I can eat 3500 of protein/carbs (0 fat) and I will not gain fat?

I am assuming no, that you prefer one way but still believe in calories in vs calories out. I just wanted to clarify. I have seen people say "you can just eat as many carbs as you want on tren it melts fat off you wont gain an ounce" which I don't buy and hasn't worked for me. Although I have never been so meticulous to have exactly 0 dietary fat.

 

[b-boy]

Note: I never do protein/fat/carb meals. Either protein and fats (usually throw in some vegetables to help pull water through the intestines during digestion) or protein and carbs w/fruits and veggies (loading phase).

I never mix carbs and fats.

THIS ^^^^^^^

 

[b-boy]

Note: I never do protein/fat/carb meals. Either protein and fats (usually throw in some vegetables to help pull water through the intestines during digestion) or protein and carbs w/fruits and veggies (loading phase).

I never mix carbs and fats.

Milk is the only food in nature that has carbs and fats together. In nature fat and carbs are not together in a food source..LOL

 

[astrosfan123]

that sucks for yall that are scared to put peanut butter in your oats

 

[Elvia1023]

Milk is the only food in nature that has carbs and fats together. In nature fat and carbs are not together in a food source..LOL

Cashews

 

[Biggerp73]

I lossed 50lbs this past year, 1/5th of my total body weight, on a 6000, 4000, then 3000 calorie CKD and keto diet. Muscles were spared the deluge of catobolysis by being in a state of ketosis. My blood glucose is a healthy 67mg avg, and my insulin sensitivity is rocking high. Saying fat has nowhere to go except to adipose tissue is just silly.

I think I haven't expressed myself clearly. I affirm that a low carb, high fat diet can be very effective. I lost about 60-70lbs between my junior and senior year of high school by switching to a keto diet and doing cardio. But it seems to me such diets work, yes perhaps partially because they teach the body to burn fat, but primarily because they are (effectively) calorie restricted and high protein. You had great success on your diet this past year - you also slowly cut your calories in half over time! And I assume you kept protein high. That's a recipe for success.

When someone is in a caloric defecit, dietary fat wont contribute to body fat accumulation because it would be preferentially burned for energy before being stored as body fat, or more importantly, because whatever dietary fat may be stored as bodyfat will be compensated by an even greater amount of body fat being burned, for a net decrease on average.

But when someone is in a caloric surplus, I don't see what the body is going to do with the extra fat other than store it as body fat. Especially for PED users who dont rely on dietary fat to fuel the production of hormones.

Whereas with carbohydrates, a true caloric "surplus" seems less likely, given carbohydrates not needed for immediate fuel can usually be stored somewhere in the body as glycogen. And in the case there is no room for any more glycogen, those carbohydrates arent readily stored as body fat but first must undergo a process of being converted to fat that itself requires calories. And as insulin rises and carbohydrates become plentiful, protein breakdown is minimized and metabolic processes (from what I understand) are stimulated to "speed up" if you will. I am here thinking of studies which IIRC showed that high carbohydrate refeeds were more effecive at stimulating thyroid hormone and increased metabolism than other forms of diet breaks.

It just seems to make sense to me, as lots of old time bodybuilders would say, to "feed the muscle" (with glycogen and amino acids) and "burn the fat" (use body fat for fuel not dietary fat). And if we did a statistical survey of all the top professsional bodybuilders of the past 50 years, I'd guess its probably 75% or so who have followed the high carb/low fat approach modeled by guys like Milos etc.

 

[Biggerp73]

Note: I never do protein/fat/carb meals. Either protein and fats (usually throw in some vegetables to help pull water through the intestines during digestion) or protein and carbs w/fruits and veggies (loading phase).

I never mix carbs and fats.

THIS ^^^^^^^

I agree that mixing carbs and fats isnt ideal. Except perhaps your last meal of the day, when the fats should be releasing into the blood stream later on throughout the night after the carbs have already been asborbed and stored as glyocgen so that insulin is lower and the fats can be used for fuel rather than stored as body fat. At least thats my thinking about it.

 

[Biggerp73]

Im a bit confused what people are saying, I understand some people like high carbs some like high fat.....

My maintenance is 3k, if I eat more, I will gain weight rapidly depending on how much. 185, 190, 200, 220, 240, I have no issue gaining weight or eating alot of food.

But I gain a small amount of LMB and alot of fat, no matter how clean, what type of diet. I have never tried to completely eliminate either carbs or fat

Are the fat/protein, 0 carbs people claiming that I can eat 3500 of protein/fat (0 carbs) and I will not gain fat?

Are the carbs/protein, 0 fat people claiming that I can eat 3500 of protein/carbs (0 fat) and I will not gain fat?

I am assuming no, that you prefer one way but still believe in calories in vs calories out. I just wanted to clarify. I have seen people say "you can just eat as many carbs as you want on tren it melts fat off you wont gain an ounce" which I don't buy and hasn't worked for me. Although I have never been so meticulous to have exactly 0 dietary fat.

I wouldn't say that you could eat over maintenance and not gain any fat whatsoever while eating high carbs and low fats, but I think the amount of fat gain will be significantly less than what you would experience eating the same amount of calories but higher amounts of fat.

 

[micro2000]

America is obese because of the low fat guidelines. Just a few years ago everything was about low fat but America got even fatter. So what was happening with these low fat people.

Refined grains and sugars can and will be stored as fat when eaten in excess

Guidelines didn't make anyone change their diet. The avg American ate low fat foods WITH their normal shit diet, not a low fat diet.

Its a myth by the anti-carb crowd that Americans switched over to low fat diets because of low fat guidelines and low fat products. They didn't.

 

[Tomgrass]

You can look amazing on both diet , high carb low fat , high fat low carb , but if you are tall guy it is much better to stick with high carb. I just noticed some time ago that keto make me flat as hell and I am not looking like bodybuilder rather like somebody who just going to the gym and no amount of fat will change it. Shoulders are flat as fuck , but I am lean as hell. There is always trade of.