Anabolics Vs. Androgens What's truely need?

[Agon]

Just finished reading the hole thing, thx alot to all those who contributed to this thread. Some of the best info i've read in a while

 

[james001]

Goood thread. I’ve tried higher dose and lower dose… same gains. I respond better to higher anabolic stack… I’ve taken my bodyweight from around 215 to around 240 on 400mg deca and 2-500mg test. The time I ran high test (E) I got bloated… and didn’t like the look.

I prefer long term to build and maintain bodyweight… by the way gaining that kind of weight SUCKS… I could barely bend over to tie my shoes. I agree you can drop the test way down for extended periods and as long as the anabolic is there I continue to improve.

My dream stack would be eq+deca+dbol…but for some reason I never run across d-bol or eq (aside from ordering over sees which I’m not willing to do.

The one time I tried eq it was the most effective aas I’ve ever tried. I literally watched myself growing… and I only injected 50mg a day and used it alone.

I can take test and deca…with a good diet stay at a decent bodyfat… the times I’ve leaned out I took tren – ORALLY 20mg a day for 4-6 weeks… worked like a charm.. The same as injecting (which I did once)

Dhea is great too… dhea + oral tren I as ripped and happy.. Nothing else. That picture in my avatar I was using dhea with oral tren thrown in for a little while… hardened me right up. And that’s before I ever fucked with a real cycle.

 

[chris250]

Bump- Great read !!!

 

[Shelby]

I'd like to hear Phil's take on this

 

[craig3758]

I for one don't like test as it gives me a distended gut.I'll use primo,drol or deca w/gh from here on out.Maybe a little test later this year,but not much

 

[Armageddon]

I'm surprised this thread is still going, good info within these pages for people at any level.

 

[cpesloco]

great read. Funny I am currently running this type of protocol as I did not want a high test cycle. After coming across this thread I am excited to see how my results end up.

 

[Max32]

helluva read guys

 

[DocGabri]

Just finished reading the hole thing, thx alot to all those who contributed to this thread. Some of the best info i've read in a while

I'm totally agree!
And I'm speaking as passionate and as doc I am too.
Thanks to Magnum, edge and all the guys here!

 

[chris250]

this should be a sticky in the article section !!!

 

[subby]

so which compounds are mostly Anabolic. I am one who suffers from hairloss and gyno.. dont really feel like reading every compounds profile...

 

[oldfella]

so which compounds are mostly Anabolic. I am one who suffers from hairloss and gyno.. dont really feel like reading every compounds profile...

All I will say is this..............You want to use dangerous and potentially harmful compounds in your body, but you don't feel like reading about all of them and what they do. Read this then..................
There is a search button. Stop being lazy and use it! Educate yourself and then we might help you!!

So you want to earn lots of money but don't feel like reading everything there is to know about how to do it!!!!! Same analogy!!!So you will fail!

 

[7_Deadly_Sins]

Bump, some really solid info here.

 

[übermensch1]

Sunuvabitch!!!

I will try and answer your question directly in a more indirect way. Sometime when I get going I tend to digress, but I will get back to the point I promise.


A lot of people ask me two different questions almost exclusivley when it comes to cycling. The first is what is the best cycle and the second is how long should I stay on. Man, these two questions could literally have volumes written on them. My answers might be different than most peoples, in fact they most likey are. As far as the how long questions goes, all of us (me inlcluded) strive to look our best and look that way for as long as possible, but "our best" is different for each one of us. Many people on here tend to forget some things. When you look at a pro you almost always see him at his best. Wouldn't it be great if we could walk around big and lean all year long. The smart pros go off between shows(as long as theyare not doing more than one or two a year) and get smaller while still staying somewhat lean. I am guessing that most people on here do not compete, but the magority of them want to stay big most all the time. So, here's the answer to your question. If you want to stay big then stay on. Don't ever think for a second that you are going to maintain a 1000mgs a week worth of muscle by coming off and using a little bit of igf, hcg, clomid, gh or whatever. Sure if you want to come off for a few weeks the add this stuff in, but ask yourself how much would you have really lost in 4 weeks to begin with?

I have seen countless cycles done in many different ways over the years. So many that my head spins. Ways to keep your gains, frontloading, backloading, pyramiding up, pyramiding down, bridging add infinitum. The list goes on and on. Bottom line is when you use steroids you grow and when you come off you shrink. Now, this maybe is a slight over simplification of things as I do think that certain drugs that are better for actual size gains, but I will get to that later. In the 20 some odd years that I have been around I have seen a lot. I remember when Gh was the rave. It was the only drug you could use that would enable you to keep all your gains. I heard of guys gaining 30 to 40 pounds of muscle. Sad thing was I never actually met anyone. Well, turned out that there was a certain way you had to take it. In the morning was best, no it was at night, no actually it was both morning and night and make sure your bed was pointing North when you slept at night. Get my point?

To this day the best drugs to use use to make bigger muscles are steroids. If anyone here does not believe this then stop using them and get on some Gh, IGF, pgf, and all the other worthless crap that a lot of guys are wasting their money on and see what happens. Once your levels drop down (which can take months) you are going to shrink. For the average guy I still believe that steroids (not testosterone) will give you the most for you money as far as quality muscle gains. I also like to throw in some test (200-300wk) to keep the sex drive up. There really are not too many steroids out there to begin with, well anabolic that is. I have seen plenty of muscle built on Deca, D-bol, Anadrol and EQ to a lesser degree. I would add in any of the tren esters here, but I think they are too hard on the body and should only be used before a show, as should a lot of other drugs and in higher doses. You also have anavar, winny and primo, but they are not strong enough for most people to be satisfied with.

Now, not to sound like I am contradicting myself, I mentioned in another post about how a friend of mine who I trained for a show used mostly test. He did add in some deca and halo near the end. He ended up winning the lightweights and looked great. He was hard as nails, dry and full. He mainly used test because of money reasons plus I am not so sure that a bigger guy could get away with doing this. Remember that a lightweight is only going to be able to carry so much muscle and the main reason he won was because of his conditioning. Don't get me wrong, he was big. but I don't know if a heavyweight is going to be able to get enough size on him by just using test. In fact, most likely not. Now, I do know some guys (not many) who have been on LARGE amount of test and for years. These guys generally also run deca, EQ and some other king of anabolic with the test. Neither of these guys rarely if ever experience any kind of joint problems and they never come off. Maybe it's because they are running other things with the test.

Most people on here seem to agree that 1 gram of test per week is the max as far as the optimal dose of test goes. Personally I think this all started with Palumbo. Either you run 200-300 mgs weekly or run 3-5 grams of it. Personally I have never really had the balls to run more than 1500 weekly of test and for no longer than a few weeks. I have always got along fine with 400-500 mgs per wk. In fact, I never really noticed any better gains with 1500 than 500. Now, I have seen what jumping it up to 3-5 grams per week can do and I'll tell you that it does some crazy shit. Before I go on I want to say that I would NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! recommend this to anyone. This is only me relaying info that I have heard and witnessed. For some unknown reason when this kind of dose is maintained along with anabolics at not so high a dose, I have seen some amazing size gains. When I say 3-5 grams I am taking into consideration bodyweight. Some guys have gone higher from what I have heard, but I have no direct contact with anyone who actually has.

Gonna stop her for now. Sorry to be so long winded. Remember, be smart and stay healthy. This is only info and some of my opinions that I am sharing.

Wow!!! I have been reading through this thread and trying to hold back from posting until I got to the end. Well I almost made it.

This info is just too freakin' good and I think everyone here ought to be extremely grateful to both Magnum and Edge250 for divulging ANY of this to us free of charge!!

I myself am a reputable trainer here in Ft Lauderdale and have been in this biz for along time.

My trainer is the ole' Mighty Mike Quinn and I chat with John Romano often at my gym along with many others in this industry.

I don't mean to sound arrogant in dropping names but I feel I need to put that out before I say this to lend some credibility to what I say.

As a trainer, my time, and more importantly, my knowledge is my most precious commodity and you better believe I charge for it past the introductory questions.

I know most here know this, but Magnum and Edge250 absolutley are spot-on in what they say and any out there who are wondering what the secret is, well these two guys just gave you a great inside start.

From one lifter and trainer to another--you have my complete appreciation and respect.

What you are saying about anabolics and the detriments of test, I have been preachin' for years to my clients and anyone that would listen to me.

Thank you

übermensch

 

[chris250]

bump - more reading for work

 

[almard]

Bumb for that reading....

 

[DIEZEL666]

Bump this for good information.

 

[eltiburonasesino]

REPLY TO MAGNUM ON GEAR

I will try and answer your question in a more general way and just give you some of my opinions as far as supps go. When I mentioned that there are a lot of things that are being used that don't really contribute to one's physique I was reffering more the ancillary drugs more than steroids. I fear that most of you will be some what disappointed about what I have to say. There are no real secrets to getting big. If there is I would say it's more about what you don't do than do.

IMO steroids are king in building muscle and most likely always will be. Take GH for example. I've known guys over 40 that take it and get pretty decent results as far as a rejuvination drug. A couple of IU's a day is all you need when your older to get good results. Most bodybuilders (younger) will take anywhere from 4 to 9 iu's daily. Most guys expect to make huge gains from taking GH. I've never really known anyone to gain any appreciable amount of muscle from GH alone. Everyone says to take it with gear but how do you know that it's the GH that is working? As far as I'm concerned anything that you take by itself and doesn't work, isn't going to work by adding something to it. Most guys get nothing more from GH than a bit of water retention. If that's what you want then go eat some bacon. It's a hell of a lot cheaper and more fun.

Same for IGF. I did get some fat loss from IGF but I did not gain anything in the way of muscle. It's popular to use IGF, clomid and or HCG to bridge after a cycle and to keep the gains that you have made. 30 days is the norm. So many guys tell me that they lose only a couple of pounds by doing this and their strength is maintained pretty well. Most guys are walking around with a test/epitest ratio of 20:1 or even more. How much do you really think your levels are goint to drop in 30 days? I can tell you by actual blood test results not much at all if any. I friend of mine (who reads this board, hey bro) was remarking to me how surprised he was to have maintained a lot of his mass (not all) over the last 4 months that he has been off. This doesn't surprise me as the body can and will hold on to muscle longer than you think. But if he was taking IGF for example I'm willing to bet he would be praising the effects of the IGF right now and how great it is for maintining mass. Get my drift?

Some guys bridge with anavar or something similar. Waste if time, period. How can anyone think that you are going to maintain gains that you have made from taking 2 grams a week by using 40mgs of anavar a day??? Your either on or off. Your either growing or your not. Things are different today than years ago. Take Arnold for example. He competed once a year and in the off season he got off the drugs and got small. Most guys today don't even compete and want to be big all year round. Nothing wrong with that, but lets face it, when you come off drugs you get smaller. This after all is proof that steroids work in the first place.

Over the years I have witnessed many different steroids cycles from the very complicated to the most basic. People tend to forget that steroids were not invented for bodybuilders. You don't need to lift weights to grow muscle from taking them. Don't get me wrong, it sure helps. In fact it's a must to get huge, but my point is that they are very powerful muscle enhancing drugs. I think that people don''t give them enough credit. They somehow feel if they give them credit then they look like cheaters. Not true, a lot of hard work goes into building a big body, but at the same time they are the guys who take a few d-bol a a shot of deca a week and grow like a weed and to top it off they don't even lift that hard. I'm sure we all know someone out there like that. Well lifes not fair, get used to it. We all have out strong points, some more than others.

IMO test is the best steroid to use for growth. Technically it's not an anabolic steroid, but a male sex hormone. AS were invented to mimic the results of test and minimize the side effects or the secondary sex charactaristics. The problem is that the anabolic and androgenic effects work hand in hand. People tend to feel pretty good on test and get great gains. This is no coincidence. Our bodies already produces it and it knows how to accept it better than any other steroid.

IMO test should be the foundation of a cycle. Throw in another injectable maybe and an oral. NO, orals are not that dangerous. Another misconception. Not to contradict myself, but I know guys who loves deca and d-bol and hardly ever use test. They gets great results and yep, they still able to do the nasty. Another misconception. I'm sure this is not true for everyone.

Test,(any kind) deca, Eq (not as much) d-bol , A-50's ect. These drugs have built most of the mass you see on stage today. I guess I should give honerable mention to trenbolone. This is a weird drug. Very powerful. The late Dan Ducahine once said that no one should ever use it unless they were a serious competitor. I agree. I'd say about 500mg is about a powerful as a gram of test. I think it's too hard on the body in many ways, escpecially if your older. I've known a few guys to complain about an enlarged prostate from it. Even younger guys. Throw it in the last few weeks before a show and that's it.

Getting big is not rocket science. Forget about all these fancy cycles and different ways to take stuff. It's impotant to keep an eye on your BP and take an anti-estrogen only if needed. Stick to the basics and you will grow. I realize that this only touchs upon the subject at hand and a lot more can be said. Hopefully I have not offended anyone here. These are just my opinions and I realize not everyone (maybe no one ) will agree. Even when I disagree with someonew I still respect their opinion. Peace

I don't notice much being said about how important diet is and what are your feelings regarding this when bulking / cutting while using gear ? At one time some 10-12 years ago I ate mostly egg whites and plain oatmeal for breakfast , the leanest ground beef, some chicken, yams , kidney beans for carbs , and 2-3 protein drinks a day using creatine and only would gain 8-10 pounds of lean mass because I was natural and not exactly some genetic freak like some guys who could lift a weight and blow up or were using roids. I trained at a privately owned gym and the owners son was dealing this stuff and would just blow me off and be a dick when id approach him about this stuff but he had no problem selling to his buddies .

 

[Moen]

Other people here that actually prefer the more pure anabolics like deca/eq OVER testosterone (for size)?

 

[kscowboy]

GREAT INFO!!! But i do have one question now. Magnum said that one of his best cycles was:

8 weeks
eq=400 mg/wk
35 mg var daily
250 mg test/wk

So why does everyone say you need to run eq for atleast 16 to 20 weeks? I have never considered eq because of the length of time i THOUGHT was necessary. This above stack would be awesome.