Just something that gets lost in this whole deal that I feel is utmost importance..

[pesty4077]

True but it is also true that every Mr Olympia ever is still alive except for one I believe, maybe two now...

Just Larry Scott and Sergio Olivia.

 

[KillerStack]

True but it is also true that every Mr Olympia ever is still alive except for one I believe, maybe two now...

It's probably not gear related but Coleman's body is a sorry sight nowadays, though Coleman still always appears very happy and positive I know it's a nerve issue but there's also the retraction of muscle bellies in his legs, they look torn but my guess there was no acute injury as such. The insertions started creeping higher and higher up his legs even as he was still competing. A few others show these signs also, Kamali for example. I saw where someone blamed statins for this. Thoughts?

As far as maintaining, a little bit of gear does a lot. 200mg of test is way different than anything you see in any natural who has high test naturally, regardless of test levels on paper IMO. Add in 3-4iu of growth, which is several times more than any older guy would produce naturally. I don't know how often John does insulin but he seems to believe in elevating insulin during workouts, whether through food or injections. That helps a lot too.

 

[nothuman]

This is the key statement right here.

I hate to say this, but how freaking long was Rich Pianas run in this? 20+ years of taking god knows what (whether that's steroids, rec drugs, painkillers, stimulants), injecting some alien goo into harms, and having a not so great diet.

People were shocked at his death (and may he RIP), I was shocked his body took that for so long; it's an incredibly resilient creature that's for sure. How resilient? Well this is where mom and pop played a huge role

lol pretty sure everyone was only shocked he made it to 46. At least among us. Can't speak for the young kids on facebook who followed him though.

 

[RamboStallone]

x2

Rambo i posted my bloods i did last year on 250 mg test cyp ( in kaladryn's thread on DIM) and i remember thinking to me then just look at my test levels , total and free at just 1 ml of shit , nearly triple the range! Do I really need more then say 250 mg test ? i thought there is plenty of test circulating in my body to grow and repair muscle all I need is to focus on training and diet and that's it.

The great results i saw kind of put me off from running high test as i felt i might be overdoing it unnecessarily.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

It takes more to build, less to maintain. And the longer you hold the easier it is to maintain at a lower dose. This is why JM can maintain like he has, plus the guy is just a badass, these results are not typical lol!

 

[Phidias]

Bottom line is TRT/HRT is still enhanced. So idk why some of these guys act like this is news or incredible. Especially if you are doing advanced techniques like frequent injections and adding GH etc. This is not natural at all, not even close. You don't have the ups and downs you would, instead your keeping your levels elevated all the time. It's apples to oranges. If these guys were to completely come off, they would lose a lot more. That's why TRT is a good approach.

Excellent post that says it all... go tell a 6' 175lbs half lean true natural that your 200-300 mg Test/week put you in the same league as him... guy will just insult you... and he'll be right.

And a few IU's of GH and maybe slin on top of it ? Plus metformin and letrozole to keep you lean ? Lol... C'mon... this is FAR from your typical natty stack where Tribulus Terrestris and Creatine are probably the most anabolic agents...

That being said, this approach is CERTAINLY the smartest one you can adopt when using gear and have already built your size. Actually what EVERYONE should be doing once he's indeed reached homeostasis and wanna stay healthy.

But stop that TRT you've been using for YEARS (and even more HRT ), and see what happens to your body, even on a decent diet and training regimen... yes you might be able to maintain your weight, but instead od 240 lbs of shredded muscle, be prepared to be... well... "slightly" sloppier...

 

[RamboStallone]

Excellent post that says it all... go tell a 6' 175lbs half lean true natural that your 200-300 mg Test/week put you in the same league as him... guy will just insult you... and he'll be right.

And a few IU's of GH and maybe slin on top of it ? Plus metformin and letrozole to keep you lean ? Lol... C'mon... this is FAR from your typical natty stack where Tribulus Terrestris and Creatine are probably the most anabolic agents...

That being said, this approach is CERTAINLY the smartest one you can adopt when using gear and have already built your size. Actually what EVERYONE should be doing once he's indeed reached homeostasis and wanna stay healthy.

But stop that TRT you've been using for YEARS (and even more HRT ), and see what happens to your body, even on a decent diet and training regimen... yes you might be able to maintain your weight, but instead od 240 lbs of shredded muscle, be prepared to be... well... "slightly" sloppier...

Good to see you posting brother! [emoji16]

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Its incredibly peculiar to see so many people on this thread say "of course you can do this etc etc etc"

when I feel I was about the only guy on this board arguing this homeostasis (actually imabadman agreed with me as did massive G and Phil Viz) part of things for years in too many threads to count. What i kept hearing in reply to my side of the coin was "you are only as big as your dosage" which i strongly disagreed with..... because i know what TIME IN does if you have all your other ducks in a row.

I dont know how this discussion became about 'natural vs enhanced' and what someone feels is TRT or not. Watching virtually every non enhanced male who takes care of themselves look pretty similiar between the ages of 20 and 40 only to disintegrate into an old man between 40 and 60 (natural) is pretty convincing that replacement therapy is probably the way to go if you want a quality of life. As far as what someone considers TRT versus someone elses idea of it....I consider it this personally. Normal total testosterone is considered 250-1100 ng/dl...anyone who places in that range with their testosterone therapy in my book is doing TRT and if you can get up in the upper edges of that range MORE POWER TO YOU MAN. That coupled with healthy bloodwork....Im not going to fault anyone with whatever they are doing if they fall into that range and are extremely healthy while doing so...whether thats 80mg a week or 300mg a week. Now if someone is coming in way over that 1100 range...then i consider that "juicing"....thats my fine line personally. If a guy chooses to use anti aromatase to keep his estradiol in a 21-37 range and in doing so doesnt skewer his lipids (again back to the health parameter)...im personally all for that too. What TRT does bring out best in a bodybuilder is a person has to eke out every single iota out of training, supplementation and diet to maintain or improve...and in the long run it makes them such a good bodybuilder its scary......and when (or if) they go back to supra-physiological doses of the sauce (contest goals or etc) they are 50 times the bodybuilder when they do because they have honed in A B and C on TRT and now are adding D.

The whole reason I brought forward "blasting" and "cruising" back in the late 90's was because everyone was doing a yo yo with cycling....they would gain 30lbs and do PCT and lose a great deal of it...then get back on and the first 4-6 weeks of their cycle they would spend trying to get back to the point of muscularity they left off at on their last cycle....that was Chief problem #1

Problem #2 was alot of the National level guys and pro's i was working with back then threw that crap in the wastebasket because at that time it was all about supplement contracts and they needed to stay in shape year round....they could not risk cleaning out and looking crappy when (at that time) there was
Ironman February
Arnold March
JR USA short time after that
Night of Champions May
Jr nats some time in there
USA championships July
Olympia September
Grand Prix shows September October
Nationals November
Expos expos expos, competing competing competing, appearances, seminars and guest posings, guest posings, guest posings,
and they were HITTING massive amounts year round like seriously hardcore dosages year round. I remember one over 300lb offseason guy I was working with (we had a huge falling out so ill leave him nameless) back in the 2000's who was just bombing dosages 52 weeks out of the year and I was like "What the fuck are you doing bro? This is madness....listen to me there is a better way here".....some of these guys i helped guys werent having it...because alot of this was about money...but i convinced the majority of them to do the following:

You cannot train hardcore year round...you usually have to go 6 weeks to about 14 weeks and kind of take one step back so you can take 2 steps forward again. And i used to make these guys do that in their training....so i would specifically use that period because the utmost mistake i feel people make is driving their HPTA into dormancy (both for joint integrity, fertility and health)...IMO it is so very important to send signals to the hpta at intervals to keep a function longterm. (Man this is going to get long i need to shorten this up somehow)....What happens to people when they get off a cycle? They get hurt, tear up their shoulders, knee tendonitis, susceptible to tears etc....its so very important for fertility reasons, muscle mass maintenance and joint integrity to strive to keep some sort of level of endogenous testosterone working...so i would make bbers send signals to their hpt axis during their cruises of training....this could be 2 weeks, it could be 3, 4, 6, 12 weeks whatever the bodybuilder deemed for himself that he needed to cruise. {Blasting and Cruising has really gotten convoluted over the years but this what im describing both training and ergo wise is what the true meaning is supposed to be....this all came from Cycles for Pennies}...so we (said bodybuilder and I ) would since alot of them had both problem #1 above and problem #2 would design his blasts and cruises during the year around the training and the appearances. If he could cruise for a lengthy amount of time it would make me very happy...and i would do my best to try to convince them to do so. Some of these guys were adamant about staying on (not all but some) I would do my very best to try to convince them to only use hcg/clomid/and nolvadex (<--this was what was available to us at that time and then some of the anti aromatases came into the picture)....and some of them did....many of they would cruise on those 3 for months and then get back on. Some refused and they wanted to stay on because of their schedule so i would allow them low doses (25mg usually) of EOD testosterone usage with nolvadex+ hcg used on the off days during the cruises......and i had to do alot of convincing sometimes with people but i would say "Trust me man Im telling you this is going to work and you are going to lose nothing physically but water, hardness, and some vascularity...you are not going to lose your size...trust me!"....and there was many a time that months later I would throw "I told you so" in their face.

Ok im losing my main point in all this......The point was homeostasis.....if you can keep your endo testosterone functioning to some degree with signals sent (of exteme importance or you can throw this whole concept into the wastebasket)....when you create a setpoint of muscle mass X Time it will equal out into density and it will be YOUR SUIT OF ARMOR that will not go away....it wont slough off like dead skin like you see what happens to alot of young bodybuilders who dont know how to do this right. You have to be meticulous with your training eating and supplements and you absolutely have to do everything in your power to keep some sort of Endogenous testosterone function <---and that part is not easy. Without some kind of endo test or exog test (or better yet a combo of both) it wont work. Alot of this stuff gets misconstrued because there are so many pros that quit, like cold turkey, and stop lifting, do nothing to get themselves regulated and they turn into scarecrows....and it sways the general bodybuilding population that nothing can be accomplished unless your blasting everything under the sun....well those guys quit....if anyone reading this post quits cold turkey and lives with uber low testosterone and takes up raquetball for the next 2 years you arent going to look anything like you do right now. But if you took all the knowledge that you have learned over the years with diet/supps/training and kept applying it while just doing everything in your power to be in the higher ranges of tested hormonal parameters you are going to still look like a semblance of your fully enhanced self. This got too long and i ran out of steam....and skipped over alot of things

 

[maldorf]

I can add that now over 8 years after my big heart attack I am not even lifting hard or on a regular basis. I only take 100 mg/wk test for HRT. I am still more muscular than if I had never lifted at all before. I lifted natural for about 12 years and then juiced for about 10, so 22 years in all. Some of the muscle still seems to hang on even though you hardly use it. Now much of it has gone but there is still a base there, enough so that random guys at places will remark to me about how I must lift weights. Before anyone says it, no they weren't gay and hitting on me!

Before the heart attack, I was able to cruise on about 300 mg/wk and maintain what I had built up on using higher doses. If I dropped to 200 I would keep most but lost some.

 

[thethinker48]

Dante,

When you say keeping endogenous production going (using hcg, clomid which is the devil's drug imo); does this apply to someone on TRT for life?

I realized early on that if you're going down the route of messing with your hormones; there's no point in going up and down trying to PCT; and many would argue it's far unhealthier than just coming down to a true trt.

Would it make sense for those of us who are "on" TRT for life to employ the endogenous production strategy? Given fertility problems can usually be fixed with certain protocols (a popular one that was suggested by you for instance).

 

[mister69]

Meadows only takes in 100g protein these days ..that’s so low. Wish I could get away w/that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike Arnold]

What Dante says here is absolutely FACT. I can testify to this in my own life as well.

My situation is very similar to John Meadow's in that I can eat about 80-100 grams of protein per day...divided between only 2 total meals per day...and still maintain about 250 pounds of muscle mass using only 250 mg of test per /week...and this is with (often) lazy, infrequent training and minimal sleep (3-5 hours per night). As long as I eat enough total calories and train frequently enough to not lose muscle, my weight will stay there.

This NEVER would have happened when I was first reaching new weight limits. Each time I would hit a new bodyweight I would struggle to maintain it...and often lose it all if I faltered even a little bit on my diet and/or training. My body just did NOT want to maintain that newly acquired muscle. It was almost as hard to keep it as it was to gain it.

What a difference now. Even at 250 lbs I am almost 90 pounds heavier than I was when I started training...and it is so easy to hold onto. I almost have to TRY to lose it if I want to get lighter by either eating less or stopping training.

...and on that note, my body's new non-training set-point is about 45 pounds heavier than what it was when I started training. How do I know that? Well, a few years ago when I broke my back and could not walk for 6 months (let alone train) I never dropped below 210 pounds despite doing absolutely nothing and barely eating anything. I am telling you that I probably ate 40-60 grams of protein per day (max) and about 2,500 calories of mostly junk food. Yet, my body did NOT want to give up that extra 45 pounds of muscle that was still on me, despite living under very catabolic conditions (constant prednisone use, low caloric intake, low protein, bed-ridden, etc). Most people will shrivel up to nothing under those conditions, yet I was shocked to see that I was still sitting at roughly 210 pounds. While that is by no means big, the point is that my body had established a new set-point that was much higher than what it was before I began training.

In actuality, if I had been living under normal conditions (no catabolic corticosteroids and not bedridden) I probably would have maintained a bodyweight of 215+....after a year of no training.

This takes time, though. You need to maintain your new muscle for a while before your body achieves a new set-point. It doesn't happen overnight or even within a few months. Of course, a few months is a whole lot better than a few weeks, but I believe it takes a few years before your body finally says "OK, this is where we're at now, we've finished making the internal changes necessary for maintaining this new muscular bodyweight". This type of adaptation, I believe, is the result of your body modifying its own genetic machinery...and that takes time to fully achieve.

 

[ubermensch]

The comment about his diet caught me more off guard than the drug stuff. To stay that big and lean on a so-so diet of maybe a hundred grams of protein a day

 

[nothuman]

Meadows only takes in 100g protein these days ..that’s so low. Wish I could get away w/that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't imagine. I probably haven't eaten that little protein in a day in 14 years. It's hard to limit protein that low for me.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante,

1)When you say keeping endogenous production going (using hcg, clomid which is the devil's drug imo); does this apply to someone on TRT for life?

2)I realized early on that if you're going down the route of messing with your hormones; there's no point in going up and down trying to PCT; and many would argue it's far unhealthier than just coming down to a true trt.

3)Would it make sense for those of us who are "on" TRT for life to employ the endogenous production strategy? Given fertility problems can usually be fixed with certain protocols (a popular one that was suggested by you for instance).

I numbered up above so you know of which i am talking about.

1) Thats a very personal question as is all of this. Fertility wise people change their mind all the time....some guy at 32 might think "screw it im never having kids anyway so why bother?".....and then at 40 he met the wife of his dreams and his priorities have changed and he wants to have kids....well now he is in a mell of a hess because he drove his HPTA into dormancy. Joints wise and muscle maintenance/growth wise its very very important to have some sort of endogenous testosterone production. People turn into brittle old men when they get off cold turkey and its because their endogenous testosterone is in the toilet. Along with that people who have pitiful endo test while on TRT still seem to have pretty serious joint problems even though they feel better libido/energy wise. There is something to be said by having a semblance of endo testosterone. Im not talking PCT with TRT for life guys at all but I am talking the usage of HCG regularly with them and the use of anti aromatase with them. For reasons of keeping the HPTA functioning. I guarantee this....virtually every single person in this forum who is currently doing exog test by itself TRT wise will feel much better joints wise, libido wise, and "being a bodybuilder/muscle mass wise" if they add (timed) HCG to their weekly regimen (as long as they keep the estradiol rise in check)

2) I agree to an extent....but I feel so strongly that a person must if they are going to "cycle" (big difference between someone who is doing chronic TRT and someone who blasts juice and then tells everyone he is doing TRT when he decides to come down) send signals to keep himself from HPTA dormancy at intervals. And it involves the situations i said in #1 and also has a large part in this whole homeostasis discussion.

3) That fertility protocol works 1000 times better and faster if someone took the time and planning to use what is outlined in #1. There are people who have driven themselves into dormancy that go thru a living hell trying to get their significant other pregnant.

I cannot personally explain the joint integrity part of it....there is no science to explain it. It is something Ive observed for so long in people that I am virtually convinced of it now. Twenty five year old kid jumps off a 6 foot wall and he is off running. Fifty five year old guy with low endo testosterone jumps off a 6 foot wall and he likely blows out two patella tendons. Exog test helps dramatically but doesnt solve that situation....there is something about the human bodies chemistry in the manufacturing of its own hormones that is key in this process.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I numbered up above so you know of which i am talking about.

1) Thats a very personal question as is all of this. Fertility wise people change their mind all the time....some guy at 32 might think "screw it im never having kids anyway so why bother?".....and then at 40 he met the wife of his dreams and his priorities have changed and he wants to have kids....well now he is in a mell of a hess because he drove his HPTA into dormancy. Joints wise and muscle maintenance/growth wise its very very important to have some sort of endogenous testosterone production. People turn into brittle old men when they get off cold turkey and its because their endogenous testosterone is in the toilet. Along with that people who have pitiful endo test while on TRT still seem to have pretty serious joint problems even though they feel better libido/energy wise. There is something to be said by having a semblance of endo testosterone. Im not talking PCT with TRT for life guys at all but I am talking the usage of HCG regularly with them and the use of anti aromatase with them. For reasons of keeping the HPTA functioning. I guarantee this....virtually every single person in this forum who is currently doing exog test by itself TRT wise will feel much better joints wise, libido wise, and "being a bodybuilder/muscle mass wise" if they add (timed) HCG to their weekly regimen (as long as they keep the estradiol rise in check)

2) I agree to an extent....but I feel so strongly that a person must if they are going to "cycle" (big difference between someone who is doing chronic TRT and someone who blasts juice and then tells everyone he is doing TRT when he decides to come down) send signals to keep himself from HPTA dormancy at intervals. And it involves the situations i said in #1 and also has a large part in this whole homeostasis discussion.

3) That fertility protocol works 1000 times better and faster if someone took the time and planning to use what is outlined in #1. There are people who have driven themselves into dormancy that go thru a living hell trying to get their significant other pregnant.

I cannot personally explain the joint integrity part of it....there is no science to explain it. It is something Ive observed for so long in people that I am virtually convinced of it now. Twenty five year old kid jumps off a 6 foot wall and he is off running. Fifty five year old guy with low endo testosterone jumps off a 6 foot wall and he likely blows out two patella tendons. Exog test helps dramatically but doesnt solve that situation....there is something about the human bodies chemistry in the manufacturing of its own hormones that is key in this process.

As you likely know, AAS in general reduce collagen production significantly.

Even when using a low dose of testosterone (by bodybuilding standards), it will have a drastic, negative impact on collagen production.

I read a study many years ago regarding exogenous testosterone and its effect on endogenous collagen production. I forget how much test was used, but it wasn't much...and collagen synthesis was reduced by 80%. 80 frickin' percent! That level was compared to an 80 year old man!

That will wreck your joints-connective tissue, especially after years or even decades of subjecting oneself to the collagen level of an elderly man. This is why using replacement GH (2-3 iu, max) is so important for people that remain on TRT (or steroids in general) long-term. They need to try and mitigate the negative effects of exogenous AAS/testosterone use on collagen production as much as possible...or they will be falling apart at 50-60 years old.

 

[j2048b]

As you likely know, AAS in general reduce collagen production significantly.

Even when using a low dose of testosterone (by bodybuilding standards), it will have a drastic, negative impact on collagen production.

I read a study many years ago regarding exogenous testosterone and its effect on endogenous collagen production. I forget how much test was used, but it wasn't much...and collagen synthesis was reduced by 80%. 80 frickin' percent! That level was compared to an 80 year old man!

That will wreck your joints-connective tissue, especially after years or even decades of subjecting oneself to the collagen level of an elderly man. This is why using replacement GH (2-3 iu, max) is so important for people that remain on TRT (or steroids in general) long-term. They need to try and mitigate the negative effects of exogenous AAS/testosterone use on collagen production as much as possible...or they will be falling apart at 50-60 years old.

Glad u said this, makes sense.as to why my joints kill me while on trt, just started a few yrs.ago, but damn, so maybe, if i can handle a few iu per week, my doc said he could prolly get my gh script soon, so i can habe it.to cma, so theres that, and ill hopefully.have less hip and knee joint.pain and its not from squating,

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Jim Rhatt]

As you likely know, AAS in general reduce collagen production significantly.

Even when using a low dose of testosterone (by bodybuilding standards), it will have a drastic, negative impact on collagen production.

I read a study many years ago regarding exogenous testosterone and its effect on endogenous collagen production. I forget how much test was used, but it wasn't much...and collagen synthesis was reduced by 80%. 80 frickin' percent! That level was compared to an 80 year old man!

That will wreck your joints-connective tissue, especially after years or even decades of subjecting oneself to the collagen level of an elderly man. This is why using replacement GH (2-3 iu, max) is so important for people that remain on TRT (or steroids in general) long-term. They need to try and mitigate the negative effects of exogenous AAS/testosterone use on collagen production as much as possible...or they will be falling apart at 50-60 years old.

Recently started taking hydrolyzed collagen powder for this...5g twice per day...not sure if this dose is sufficient as it's still too early, or whether it will even help at all. Anybody have any thoughts or experiences to share about hydo collagen?

 

[jcc80]

Just when I thought I knew what I was doing. It sounds as if it would be very worthwhile for me to add some collagen. Now the question is, is this sufficient? I am not concerned with fertility (had vasectomy after my son)... But if HCG is important enough, I'll consider that...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[MR. BMJ]

I agree with Dante and Mike Arnold et al. I trained so hard from a young age (used AAS, but always focused on consistency, diet and training), that now, I can eat 2 meals and stay at 270# (fatter right now), and I have not even trained since April. I don't feel big, but standing next to others, they always compliment on how i'm a big guy (again, I don't consider myself big, and I've gained fat, but still skinny/tall build and legs are suffering). If I eat 3+ MEALS, the weight starts going up. I've been so inconsistent the past 4-5 years though, that when I hit the gym, i'm constantly trying to down-size just to rid some fat, but the scale stays the same, all the while eating WAY LESS calories than years when I was younger.

I've used almost exclusively 37.5mg of Test Enan the past 4-5 years, and equally I've even forgot to take shots, so many times I've even went weeks without using. I used 50mg/d of Tbol last March/April for about 4 weeks before my start of not going to the gym, and that was it for the most part.

I'm not even sure how I would even react now at higher doses again...

Ugh...can't wait to finish up these side projects so I can get back in!!!

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Recently started taking hydrolyzed collagen powder for this...5g twice per day...not sure if this dose is sufficient as it's still too early, or whether it will even help at all. Anybody have any thoughts or experiences to share about hydo collagen?

https://www.facebook.com/dante.trudel.5/posts/10154177173201053

and bottom of page onto the next page

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...cle-forum/135121-wtf-did-i-do-my-stomach.html