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Mentzer - only trained 2h/wk?

frankwhite

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that sounds about right, according to his own words


I especially appreciate the analogy of either "tapping a stick of dynamite with a pencil or smacking it with a sledgehammer"

and "any sets performed after growth is stimulated only serves to eat away at your recovery abilities" or something like that
 

Tomgrass

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Well in fact so many of us would grow amazing from 4 session per week 0.5 hour each
First exercise as warm up and then two three exercises with two sets where one to failure.
 

hawkmoon

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is that what he said or a magazine said
It's him in an interview.

I've always wondered is Mike was using the definition of time trained as time spent at max effort.
I don't see him ignoring warm up sets before going to all-out failure. He was eccentric, but not a fool, and never seriously injured that I know of.
 

Tomgrass

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It's him in an interview.

I've always wondered is Mike was using the definition of time trained as time spent at max effort.
I don't see him ignoring warm up sets before going to all-out failure. He was eccentric, but not a fool, and never seriously injured that I know of.
I think he was not counting warm up. Just from the first heavy set. My wife often asked me why I have been at the gym two hours- I always say - travel time changing clothes warm up -training for me is 1 hour.
 

FK86

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It's him in an interview.

I've always wondered is Mike was using the definition of time trained as time spent at max effort.
I don't see him ignoring warm up sets before going to all-out failure. He was eccentric, but not a fool, and never seriously injured that I know of.
He was a bit of a fool. Both Jones and his lap dog Darden said that warm-up sets weren't necessary if you used that 2 second concentric, 4 second eccentric rep cadence. Jones only kept people around that he could manipulate, so Mike likely bought into that as well. Jones even used to say stupid shit like not making any facial twitches during a set because it would rob energy from your muscle contractions.
 

Mufasa123

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As history this is intetlresring stuff but don't waste your brain power on it. Jones was out to sell Nautilus machines. He did a lot for American fitness in bringing resistance training to the masses (as well as being a major contributor to the death of Olympic lifting in this country - but that's the fault of many not just him).

At the end of the day his logic, experiments and conclusions were engineered to sell machines. His logic and theory was based on a completely false understanding of exercise phyis and science. Good logic based on completely wrong foundational science. Basically single factor theory (Jones understanding) is limited in explanatory power beyond beginners and totally/completely supplanted by dual factor theory or fitness/fatigue. Most of Jones stuff used dual factor (deloading, recovery from time accumulated stimulus) in a single factor paradigm (less stress/stimulus is better, progress is made workout to workout) to lend credibility to his machine circuits and sell them.

FALSE - "concrentic failure is the growth/hypertrophy light switch" .

TOTALLY FALSE. NOTHING SPECIAL OR DIFFERENT HAPPENS AT CONCENTRIC FAILURE. MECHANICAL WORK/VOLUME AT SUFFICIENT INTENSITIES (%1RM) THROUGH SUFFICIENT RANGE OF MOTION (REQUIRED FOR WORK DEFINITION) IS STIMULUS.

Some quality take aways despite false premise so don't toss baby with bathwater:
-progressive loading is key to driving long term progress
-rest and allowing for adaptation/recovery is important
-there are limits, don't overdo it



He also designed some fabulous machines. That damn pullover, in my and many opinions, has never been equaled let alone surpassed. Wish I had room for one.

My 2 cents anyway but as I've said I see very little in bodybuilding that indicates optimal training is any kind of requirement for success. Strength and performance criteria sports...important but still lots of ways to skin a cat.
 

OuchThatHurts

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He was a bit of a fool. Both Jones and his lap dog Darden said that warm-up sets weren't necessary if you used that 2 second concentric, 4 second eccentric rep cadence. Jones only kept people around that he could manipulate, so Mike likely bought into that as well. Jones even used to say stupid shit like not making any facial twitches during a set because it would rob energy from your muscle contractions.
They do this in sprinting too. If you'll notice, sprinters neck muscles aren't straining, their faces are cool as a cucumber. This hasn't as much to do with energy expenditure as much as it has to do with a mind/legs connection (mental concentration) generating stronger strides and faster speed. I suspect the same theory could apply to concentration-type exercises like biceps, lateral raises, hamstring curls, bentover rows - the exercises that most people do so poorly in form it makes you cringe when you see them.

I don't know about you but when I hear someone screaming at the top of their lungs, swinging weights, poor back posture, using far too much weight, dropping weights onto the floor or machine with the intention of shaking the floor, etc I just laugh. Not a big deal, I just put in my earbuds and tune them out bc it looks and sounds ridiculous. Some people like plates clanking and the floor shaking and it gets them amped up. I used to be like that years ago. These days I've outgrown all that.
 

headtrainer

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I followed Mentzer closely when he competed. He was training about 4 days per week and would do 8-12 intense work sets per body part each week—taking each set to muscle failure or beyond. Dorian built the bulk of his mass in his early years of training doing 8-12 work sets twice a week and training 6 days per week—very similar to what Ronnie Coleman did.
 

Mountolympus

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When Mike came in Italy for a seminar , after the seminar where he show his training, Mike ask for the key of the gym and train at night
 

strummer

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what I appreciated from his methodology was when he asks if you do 2 workouts one lasting 1.5 hours and the other lasting 30 minutes and they deliver the same results which workout is more efficient? I have always done the shorter workout because it yielded me the same results as the marathon session. bodybuilders tend to think more is better in all facets.i did honest assessment on myself and arrived at this . what works for one obviously does not work for all.i think mentally when you know you have multiple sets left you hold back a bit. with the shorter workout I think you can push yourself to failure and be done with it. the key here is does it deliver the same results? if for you it does the answer is clear..if you get much better results with longer sessions thats your clear winner. plenty wont try a true assessment because more is always better ! this argument has been around a long time.
 

FK86

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I don't know about you but when I hear someone screaming at the top of their lungs, swinging weights, poor back posture, using far too much weight, dropping weights onto the floor or machine with the intention of shaking the floor, etc I just laugh. Not a big deal, I just put in my earbuds and tune them out bc it looks and sounds ridiculous. Some people like plates clanking and the floor shaking and it gets them amped up. I used to be like that years ago. These days I've outgrown all that.

We are in full agreement. I loathe all of which you mentioned and I myself am the quietest person in the gym. All I'm saying is that in very difficult sets it is impossible to maintain the same facial expression as you would staring at a wall in a chair. There would be involuntary twitches and grimaces despite the best effort not to.

As history this is intetlresring stuff but don't waste your brain power on it. Jones was out to sell Nautilus machines. He did a lot for American fitness in bringing resistance training to the masses (as well as being a major contributor to the death of Olympic lifting in this country - but that's the fault of many not just him).

At the end of the day his logic, experiments and conclusions were engineered to sell machines. His logic and theory was based on a completely false understanding of exercise phyis and science. Good logic based on completely wrong foundational science. Basically single factor theory (Jones understanding) is limited in explanatory power beyond beginners and totally/completely supplanted by dual factor theory or fitness/fatigue. Most of Jones stuff used dual factor (deloading, recovery from time accumulated stimulus) in a single factor paradigm (less stress/stimulus is better, progress is made workout to workout) to lend credibility to his machine circuits and sell them.

FALSE - "concrentic failure is the growth/hypertrophy light switch" .

TOTALLY FALSE. NOTHING SPECIAL OR DIFFERENT HAPPENS AT CONCENTRIC FAILURE. MECHANICAL WORK/VOLUME AT SUFFICIENT INTENSITIES (%1RM) THROUGH SUFFICIENT RANGE OF MOTION (REQUIRED FOR WORK DEFINITION) IS STIMULUS.

Some quality take aways despite false premise so don't toss baby with bathwater:
-progressive loading is key to driving long term progress
-rest and allowing for adaptation/recovery is important
-there are limits, don't overdo it



He also designed some fabulous machines. That damn pullover, in my and many opinions, has never been equaled let alone surpassed. Wish I had room for one.

My 2 cents anyway but as I've said I see very little in bodybuilding that indicates optimal training is any kind of requirement for success. Strength and performance criteria sports...important but still lots of ways to skin a cat.

I think you'll like this thread if you haven't already read it. Especially posts by Conan21. I also think the "flip the switch" and "dynamite" analogies are stupid and I used to buy into them full force.

 

OuchThatHurts

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We are in full agreement. I loathe all of which you mentioned and I myself am the quietest person in the gym. All I'm saying is that in very difficult sets it is impossible to maintain the same facial expression as you would staring at a wall in a chair. There would be involuntary twitches and grimaces despite the best effort not to.
100% No way can a person maintain a stone cold expressionless face while approaching the pain and intensity of muscle failure. I just used sprinting as an example as that was what my track coach taught us. Sprinters don't reach muscle failure though either. I know on some sets like leg curls I squeeze my eyes shut so hard tears will squeeze out. There's no stopping it.

Also Mentzer was always saying crazy things. It kept him in the public eye and mags though. From diet to workouts. "Mentzer said this" or "Mentzer said that". He would have been massively popular today on IG or podcasting. Because everyone today is trying make a unique brand for themselves. Mike did that back then in spades. At the end of the day though, i suspect he worked his ass off and ate a ton just like everyone else did. And still do.
 

Joltan

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This is pretty common knowledge (amongst old school guys anyways)... he called it Heavy Duty rest pause training.

You do 1-2 warm up sets with light weight so you don't injure yourself, and then you load up the weight to your 1 rep max... do 1 rep, wait 10 seconds, do another rep, wait 10 seconds, do another rep.... for a total of 4-5 reps. You completely exhaust the muscle with full intensity. You need a training partner to do this effectively because you will need help getting each rep. You do 1-3 exercises for each muscle (1x per week). He emphasized the eccentric... and said the rep isn't over after the concentric because you haven't went to complete failure until you complete the eccentric part as slow as possible.

He would only train 4 days per week maximum. He said if you are not growing sufficiently that you are likely not giving yourself enough rest. Try doing 4 days every 9-10 days in this instance.

I think 90% of the people who say they use this method, or have used this method - have not really done it effectively. For this to work, you have to do 100% and you absolutely need a training partner (or do all work on machines). This needs to be 30 minutes of pure suffering...
 

buck

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From what i have read over they years he built his muscle the tadeonal way. Then later applied his heavy duty program once he started dealing with Arthur Jones.
 

alfresco

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As history this is intetlresring stuff but don't waste your brain power on it. Jones was out to sell Nautilus machines. He did a lot for American fitness in bringing resistance training to the masses (as well as being a major contributor to the death of Olympic lifting in this country - but that's the fault of many not just him).

At the end of the day his logic, experiments and conclusions were engineered to sell machines. His logic and theory was based on a completely false understanding of exercise phyis and science. Good logic based on completely wrong foundational science. Basically single factor theory (Jones understanding) is limited in explanatory power beyond beginners and totally/completely supplanted by dual factor theory or fitness/fatigue. Most of Jones stuff used dual factor (deloading, recovery from time accumulated stimulus) in a single factor paradigm (less stress/stimulus is better, progress is made workout to workout) to lend credibility to his machine circuits and sell them.

FALSE - "concrentic failure is the growth/hypertrophy light switch" .

TOTALLY FALSE. NOTHING SPECIAL OR DIFFERENT HAPPENS AT CONCENTRIC FAILURE. MECHANICAL WORK/VOLUME AT SUFFICIENT INTENSITIES (%1RM) THROUGH SUFFICIENT RANGE OF MOTION (REQUIRED FOR WORK DEFINITION) IS STIMULUS.

Some quality take aways despite false premise so don't toss baby with bathwater:
-progressive loading is key to driving long term progress
-rest and allowing for adaptation/recovery is important
-there are limits, don't overdo it



He also designed some fabulous machines. That damn pullover, in my and many opinions, has never been equaled let alone surpassed. Wish I had room for one.

My 2 cents anyway but as I've said I see very little in bodybuilding that indicates optimal training is any kind of requirement for success. Strength and performance criteria sports...important but still lots of ways to skin a cat.
Nothing personal but . . .

I think that if you had ever met him and said what you said to him to his face I think your opinion would be different.

That’s all.
 

qbkilla

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As history this is intetlresring stuff but don't waste your brain power on it. Jones was out to sell Nautilus machines. He did a lot for American fitness in bringing resistance training to the masses (as well as being a major contributor to the death of Olympic lifting in this country - but that's the fault of many not just him).

At the end of the day his logic, experiments and conclusions were engineered to sell machines. His logic and theory was based on a completely false understanding of exercise phyis and science. Good logic based on completely wrong foundational science. Basically single factor theory (Jones understanding) is limited in explanatory power beyond beginners and totally/completely supplanted by dual factor theory or fitness/fatigue. Most of Jones stuff used dual factor (deloading, recovery from time accumulated stimulus) in a single factor paradigm (less stress/stimulus is better, progress is made workout to workout) to lend credibility to his machine circuits and sell them.

FALSE - "concrentic failure is the growth/hypertrophy light switch" .

TOTALLY FALSE. NOTHING SPECIAL OR DIFFERENT HAPPENS AT CONCENTRIC FAILURE. MECHANICAL WORK/VOLUME AT SUFFICIENT INTENSITIES (%1RM) THROUGH SUFFICIENT RANGE OF MOTION (REQUIRED FOR WORK DEFINITION) IS STIMULUS.

Some quality take aways despite false premise so don't toss baby with bathwater:
-progressive loading is key to driving long term progress
-rest and allowing for adaptation/recovery is important
-there are limits, don't overdo it



He also designed some fabulous machines. That damn pullover, in my and many opinions, has never been equaled let alone surpassed. Wish I had room for one.

My 2 cents anyway but as I've said I see very little in bodybuilding that indicates optimal training is any kind of requirement for success. Strength and performance criteria sports...important but still lots of ways to skin a cat.
Is this the pullover for back? I've seen the machine but never used it. Is it universally regarded as effective as pulling movements?
 

alfresco

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Is this the pullover for back? I've seen the machine but never used it. Is it universally regarded as effective as pulling movements?
Lats primarily.

It makes my abs sore too and my lats to of course. Love the first iteration, plate loading which has became a cult classic. (Dorian used one.)

Arthur worked on the design of this machine for about 20 years, solving problems as they presented themselves.

Then one night when living in Rhodesia he had what he though to be a solution, called a long time employee in Africa named Graham Hall (who I have talked to a few times) and described a part he wanted to have built and delivered to him the next morning. And it was.

It failed so miserably that the solution became obvious.

Arthur’s arms and legs grew like weeds, other parts not so much, especially his lats, hence his focus on the pullover machine in my opinion.

I have a foto of Arnold using an early prototype of the pullover machine when he visited Arthur in Lake Helen, Fl. And he gave a wonderful written endorsement in Iron Man (so did Franco) which when I confronted him about the endorsement, he recanted. (Thank you Joe Weider . . . my opinion . . . who he was under contract with at the time.) There was one in the original Gold’s Gym in Venice but I never saw it being used. It was up in the front next to the right street window.

It was one of the first Nautilus machines to go into production. He called it ‘the upper body squat’. Arthur wrote an article about it Iron Man magazine.

Probably info than you wanted . . . sorry
for the ‘core’ dump.
 

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