o/t God

[OuchThatHurts]

The God(s) of the Old Testament or the God/Energy/Life Force which created the Universe. We are talking about two different things here.

Your statement is dogmatic in nature. We have no scientific proof that your statement is true or false. And we certainly can't reliably prove your assertion simply based on ancient texts so it is moot. We are trying to keep this philosophical discussion within the realm of existing technology and possibility.

While you may have faith that the above is true, it is simply a personal belief and not relevant to this discussion in any way. If you cannot discuss the God, a God (or gods) without the involvement of dogmatic criteria, please refrain from the discussion.

 

[thebrick]

I wish I had something meaningful to contribute, but honestly I still cannot decide if god is a thinking intelligence or is only a basic law or principle that universally governs the why and the nature of everything that exists. Atoms can be built and then decay, living things are born and die, stars are born and eventually die and some scientists believe the same will eventually happen to the entire universe. They say it was born in the big bang and may eventually implode on itself and cease to exist or perhaps create another big bang and a new universe. Maybe we are not the only universe. Maybe there are many? Existing side by side like little bubbles, perhaps even millions that make up something even bigger yet unknown? Maybe even god?

 

[bigshadow]

OTH and OldFellow,
What do you think about the study of ourselves to more fully understand God? After all, it is written that we are created in God's own image.

Instead of looking outward to the galaxies, maybe we should be looking deep within ourselves? That area really fascinates me.

My belief is that the body is a physical shell which houses my spirit. I look at the picture of "wellness" in terms of physical, emotional, and spiritual. I'm sure not everyone believes this way, but it helps me to think in these terms. I've been told that there are documented cases of people who claim to leave their own bodies during surgery and give accounts of what doctors were doing, etc.. Out of body experiences. These people are unconscious but conscious at the same time? I've only had one surgery and I was rendered unconscious without a doubt! lol. I had no awareness of time. To some degree, I guess the same thing can happen when we sleep.

I have recently been working with a psychologist to help me with a fear I have of public speaking. It has been an interesting journey for me.
One thing the therapist had me do was to have me close my eyes and begin to try and visualize and communicate with the emotion of fear and love. Its amazing but I was able to communicate with both fear and love. Fear rendered the symbol of a skull. (Probably goes back to a fear of death). Love rendered itself as a red cutout of a paper heart. Love told me that Fear was an illusion...a smoke screen... and there was no reason to be afraid. I must move through the smokescreen. Going back to the bible, we see that Love is the recommended cure for fear. As I sat there with my eyes closed, communicating with these emotions, it was really interesting to hear the responses that the heart gave. Some of it really surprised me. Was I communicating with my subconscious? Was I communicating with God? I have no idea, but it was an insightful exercise.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I wish I had something meaningful to contribute, but honestly I still cannot decide if god is a thinking intelligence or is only a basic law or principle that universally governs the why and the nature of everything that exists. Atoms can be built and then decay, living things are born and die, stars are born and eventually die and some scientists believe the same will eventually happen to the entire universe. They say it was born in the big bang and may eventually implode on itself and cease to exist or perhaps create another big bang and a new universe. Maybe we are not the only universe. Maybe there are many? Existing side by side like little bubbles, perhaps even millions that make up something even bigger yet unknown? Maybe even god?

Well that was meaningful! I've enjoyed this whole thread man! I just thought it would be cool to hear what people imagine "God" to be. There's no wrong answers, just trying to have fun.

I've heard that before too. Like bubbles in a pot of boiling water, expanding as they rise.

Here's something to think about:

You implied the plural "universes" in your post just as I have in the past (maybe even in this thread LOL). If there are other cells (for lack of a better word) similar to what we now call our universe, would those cells just be part of "THE" universe?

The question is based on the etymology of the word universe. The idea being that saying "multiple universes" is sort of like saying "three-wheeled unicycle". We got into this debate the other night when a friend of mine said something like, "...like it came from another universe!" I don't know... Something to think about if you have some time to waste.

 

[bigshadow]

As I drove home from the office today, I began to ask myself another question.

What is truly "timeless?" Not being bound by time? From a religious standpoint, God is timeless and is not bound by time.

Our planet, Sun, Galaxy and even possibly this entire universe our bound by time. As is our physical body. A starting point and an ending point.

However, we are told that if we seek God then he will provide a place for us when our life ends. A heaven. There is also mention of a hell.

So if there does exist a spirit, that moves on from our physical body which is bound by time, then is our spirit bound by time? My belief, as I am a Christian, is that it is not. If God did create us in his image, then could he have made us to not be bound by time?

 

[thebrick]

In my little quest to understand the nature of God and whether it is only some cold, supreme universal law or is an involved, benevolent entity, I start by looking at the physical universe for evidence. What I see is complex design. From atomic structure, the observed structure of the cosmos, the structure of DNA, the human body, everywhere I see incredible, beautiful design. Doesn't this imply a designer, a builder? Yet, we also see, not so beautiful things. A comet could (and has) crash into the earth and destroy life. DNA can randomly be flawed and cause horrible birth defects. Our sun will one day run out of its atomic fuel and in its dying expansion consume our earth and any unfortunate inhabitants. Does this mean there is no "perfect" designer or universal law? Or does the inherent nature of God also exist in the "imperfection"? Maybe the problem is our perception of "imperfection" as not being "beautiful" or somehow "less than"?

(I think I gave myself a headache)

 

[OuchThatHurts]

What is truly "timeless?" Not being bound by time? From a religious standpoint, God is timeless and is not bound by time.

Our planet, Sun, Galaxy and even possibly this entire universe our bound by time. As is our physical body. A starting point and an ending point.

So if there does exist a spirit, that moves on from our physical body which is bound by time, then is our spirit bound by time? My belief, as I am a Christian, is that it is not. If God did create us in his image, then could he have made us to not be bound by time?

I don't know the answer and I'd be suspicious of anyone who claims they do but I can tell you what I think if that's okay. Time is strange. It's very difficult to understand because we can only observe time through change. If there are other dimensions and parallel universes and creatures can exist in them, then I don't really see any reason why one of those other dimensions couldn't be without time. Certainly no time exists in a black hole and even time itself is only relative to the speed at which something is moving. That's right! The faster something moves, the slower time will pass for it relative to the objects around it. Objects that are not moving relative to the object in motion will pass through time at a greater rate. If you had two twins that were the exact same age, to the microsecond, and you slung one around the moon and back to Earth at the speed of light, then the twin on earth would be older in Earth time relative to the light speed twin upon his return. Granted, not much older but still older. You might look at this as if the light speed twin went forward in time. This is an example of time dilation. It is a tested and proven characteristic of time.

What I think (and I have no idea if I'm correct or not) is that rocks, trees, water, etc. exist in the physical world while God, angels, Allah (whatever) exist only in a metaphysical world (or whatever you want to call it). Yet man seems to have one foot in both worlds rather than one or the other. Do you ever think that's why man is torn between two worlds? Does it seem a little too convenient that everything a mans greed desires for him, is the exact opposite of the "right thing" his heart (conscience) is telling him he should do?

I would think a man's spirit (his metaphysical "half") is not useful without his body (physical "half") and also his body is no use without his spirit. A Christian might consider this part of the reason that God had to become man - so that he could sacrifice himself as a man in order to save man. But in order for his body to die, his Father's spirit had to leave him and that's when he asked why his Father had deserted him. Maybe at that point, he was just a dying man like the rest of us. But all that only has to do with Christianity though so I don't want to be biased here. Look at a music CD. A CD is basically just plastic. But it's more than just a plastic wheel. If you took away the plastic of the CD, what would you have? Yes, I know CD's also have a thin layer of aluminum oxide but you get the idea. What does the music look like then? Just like the plastic is worthless without the data (the music), the data is worthless without the plastic disk. The data works through the plastic and gives it purpose and the plastic holds the data - and together, they come to life. Look at this passage:

John 5:28-29 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth... ...unto the resurrection of life."

This is from the bible but many cultures have similar stories. It's almost as if to be human, you must have a body (physica) and a spirit (metaphysica). And if you are spirit, than you definitely were created in the image of God because from everything I've read, God is spirit. So maybe after your body dies, you continue on as the data on a CD and wait for the return of a physical body (the plastic) and together, you can come back to life - sort of like the music CD.

As you can see, it's very difficult to answer these questions scientifically or objectively without drifting into some sort of dogma or combination of dogmas. The more answers you get, the more question you have. Life is certainly great and full of mystery. You have to love it!

 

[bigshadow]

Thanks OTH! That's good stuff!

 

[Conan21]

This post has been suppressed from view by the Vatican

 

[oldfella]

On the subject of time....and even God, as we have been taught, had to observe the relevance of time, reference is made to it in the scriptures. it is referred to as days, during genesis. it also makes reference to God creating the heaven and the earth....so is this to mean he created the universe or even the parallel universes brought up in discussion here. God created light, it was pure and good! So when we talk of a power, energy or God as being one in the same we actually have some written record, allbeit someone's interpretation of the written word, but it is all we can go on. So we may then draw a conclusion that there is only one God, power, energy or entity and not mulitiple ones. Now it has been scientificly proven that time is can be bent, we also know and can prove that time travel is somewhat possible. The question is in order for God to create all that he/it did, did he/it have the ability to alter or travel through time?? could he/it have travelled through two universes at once? So in my mind anything that has the ability to do this would posess incredible power and would thus be desrving of the title GOD, in a humans eyes. Only because as humans we would have no explanation, scientific or otherwise. But it still does not answer the question of real exsistance or not. I like the worm hole theories. If these can be proven it would or might explain travel through two universes and time it self. It could explain how the particles of matter seem to disappear in thin air and reappear again. But if all of this is true is it still the work of God or a higher power?? Energy has to come from somewhere and go somewhere. it must have an origin or a cause that started or created it and the effect would be how it reacted or interacted after it was caused to be! These are subjects that stir the imagination and can also evoke great emotions in some. I love this stuff.

 

[thebrick]

And to take what OF mentioned about the mention in scripture of the universe being created in "days". Maybe the word day is only referring to a period of time? Not a 24 hour day? We base this on our experience on our home planet as a day, but what about everywhere else? A day could last 10's of years, even millions of our "years". We even say phrases like "back in my day". That just means a period of time. Maybe the universe was created over a period of unimaginable time. To God, who has no beginning/no end, and is omnipresent, the concept time would be irrelevant and meaningless. On the other end of the scale, if the big bang holds true, some of those "days" of creation were fractions of milliseconds on our scale of "time"

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Conan21, I'm not going to argue or debate with you. Simply post again in this thread and you're going on vacation for a few weeks.

 

[thebrick]

And while I am at it, what about the concept of infinity? And the universe being infinite? I have read that some speculate that the universe is infinite in the sense that space curves in on itself. In other words if it were possible to travel far enough, you would eventually end right where you started. An analogy would be like traveling the surface of a ball. You never reach the end, so in that sense, its infinite. Maybe our universe is basically a sphere in design? Perhaps ever expanding after the big bang? It seems to be the preferred structure out there. From atomic structure to planets and stars, it seems the sphere is the default form in design. But what's outside the sphere? Is there an "outside"? Fun to think about...

 

[bigshadow]

Ouch and Oldfellow and Brick,

What if our perception of "Time" is incorrect? Man generally perceives time as linear. Past-> Present-> Future. What if Time is not linear but revolves in a circle? Maybe our paradigm is incorrect? Sort of an interesting thing to ponder. Maybe its something like, Past-> Present-> Future -> Past-> Present-> Future....with no stop and no beginning?

 

[oldfella]

I guess we could open up a whole worm hole on the subject of time, but is time relevant to God?? Did God have the concept of time when he/it created all of what we know? or did he/it have the ability to suspend time, as we know it in order to accomplish certain things?

My take is as humans we all need or want to believe in something higher/greater than us ordinary humans. So did we actually create god in our image? Simply to give life here something to cling to, something to give us hope? You see it actually could be the other way around here, we create GOD to fill our need for explanation, and as I said to give us hope and something to turn to when all around us goes bad! All we really have to go on are some written words that have been translated to the umpteenth time by HUMANS! Yes we are told they are the writtings of God, but still written by ordinary men as far as we know. Then over the eons they have been subjected to speculation and opinion until we have them in their present form. Simplified? or Perverted to suit our want for something spectacular for sensationalism? But I do beleive there is a higher power at work around us, just what that is well is not clear to me, but I believe!!

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Simplified? or Perverted to suit our want for something spectacular for sensationalism? But I do beleive there is a higher power at work around us, just what that is well is not clear to me, but I believe!!

These are great points OF. I've been enjoying this thread. Actually every question that is raised always seems to lead into something that was written on some ancient tablet or scroll or passed down from age to age and translated, etc. Some of the most ancient manuscripts don't even match. We could also get very psychological about the need for people to deal better with the concept of death and also to help explain everything we don't understand. For instance, if you went back 2000 years to Nazareth and shot a gun into the sky or turned on a flashlight in the night, they would consider you a god (or that you had the power of God in you). Some would probably worship you like a god. You would have power over the thunder and light. But the truth is that there's nothing magical or mystical about it. It's just science.

The stumbling block to me (and I have plenty) is that there are no real answers out there. It's important enough to enjoy every day of your life and help others do the same. Maybe to find yourself at peace instead of at odds with the world and the universe that surrounds you. We know that when sun gets low on the horizon, it passes through more atmosphere which filters out more of the lower frequencies and in turn, leaves the sky with the higher red frequencies. So we know some things about the sun, about light, etc. But does that make a sunset or sunrise any less spectacular? You ask if maybe we need to create God for our own sake. What if we need to create science? What if we need to create science so that we can bring everything down to our level - explain it away and then it's exposed and it (whatever) loses all it's power and magnificence. Or maybe our own selfish pride is at work trying to assure us that there is nothing more powerful than ourselves.

The problem is that I know that I am me and you know that you are you. Well the inescapable question becomes why? Why is there a me? everything in nature has purpose. I don't think I can think of anything in nature that is completely without purpose. So when I sit in a high place and look down over a large area of the Earth and consider why I'm here and for what purpose, I can't even hazard a guess! We can examine other things in nature and see what purpose they serve. Why can't we do that with ourselves? In other words, what brings you here to this neck of the woods, galaxy, universe? How about you Brick? Shadow? The only thing that I always seem to assume is that there is a great scheme and I'm part of that scheme. I'm part of the story. the whole universe is out there waiting to be discovered.

All the universe seems to be gigantic masses of matter and energy, elements, and molecules and yet here on this little blue planet of ours, everything became so complicated. Looking at the rest of the universe I have to say this is one crazy planet.

 

[oldfella]

All the universe seems to be gigantic masses of matter and energy, elements, and molecules and yet here on this little blue planet of ours, everything became so complicated. Looking at the rest of the universe I have to say this is one crazy planet.

I too have been enjoying this thread, it is a break from the norm and it is not everyday you get to engage your mind in this manner, well at least with others that is!

You are correct about how this is one crazy planet. I often wonder what God or it would be thinking if looking down at all the chaos, all the destruction of habitat and all the carnage created by us in his image????? If it were me I'd be pretty disappointed. But if we are all nothing more than a science project gone wrong, then what becomes of us after the experiment crashes? If we are nothing more than a creation of science then at some stage one of us has to figure it out and have some answers form the rest of us. If we created God or science to suit our needs then who really knows if this is so? I agree that science or the science of the universe seem simple on one hand and incomprehensible on the other. The sheer volume and vastness of it all is what makes it incomprehensible, the nature of it is what is so simple. SO then why does the universe exsist? Why so much space and semmingly nothing in between except stars and masses of molecules and matter. What purpose does it serve in our scheme of things. We already know that it is harsh and seeminly uninhabitable, at least not without the aid of shelters and equipment. There is no air, it is a vacuum, there is radiation that will fry us in an instant, extreme temps that would vaporise or freeze us. So what purpose does the universe have to humans? Is it the dwelling place of the energy we call God? Is it the path to it? Yes so many questions and each time we can offer an answer it is with another more complex question. Why is it in our nature to be so inquistive?? And with this curiosity will it eventually be our undoing? If we find the truth, whatever the truth may be, would we as a society be able to handle it????

 

[bigshadow]

As I read your post Ouch, I think about how man has the basic desire to be able to label things in life. Isn't it funny? Our culture is obsessed with labeling things...hence science. As you say, I think man does need to create science, but will our brain ever be capable of understanding the truth? Then I think about "what is truth?" Will facts ever help us fully understand "Truth?" I don't think its possible. Which is where "faith" comes into the picture. Facts + Faith = Truth
We see this all the time in our own lives and understanding of others. We can try to know as many facts about why someone may behave a certain way and still not fully know why without asking them. They may not even know why, as they may behave a certain way due to past events in their own lives which they may not be able to see. If we know this persons character, through what we observe time after time, then we are relying on our own faith of judgement often times.
Like you say Ouch, man complicates things with his desire to label.
This I believe is why faith is so important for mankind. Because we cannot ever fully know the truth.

Just as you have asked Ouch. Why are we here? Unfortunately we have a limited number of facts to go on....

I was talking to my psychologist friend about consciousness today and our discussions here. It hit me, that our ability to perceive and comprehend changes through time. We cannot perceive a great deal when we are babies and as our mind develops through adolescence and into adulthood we are able to perceive more and more...then as we grow old our perception diminishes. My friend is a strong christian and his belief is that our ability to perceive and comprehend matures through adulthood so we can become closer to God. If Einstein is correct...that 99.95% of what we see and know is Energy then possibly our Spirit is the Energy. As you believe Ouch, you can't have one without the other.

The more I know...the less I understand...

Why am I here? "Truth?" I don't know all the "facts." All I have is my "Faith" that God created me for a purpose. He gave me free will and yet He already knows the choices I will make. He allows everything, good, bad, to happen in my life for a reason. I believe he wants us to experience all emotion. Happiness, Sadness, Anger, Fear. To experience all emotion is to know ourselves. He has a desire to be intimate with my thoughts and wants me to Need Him. He created us to be dependant of Him. I also believe He wants me to communicate with other people and help those in need. Possibly to be a Disciple(Teacher) to others.

I can't answer why I am here, all I can say is that I pray and try to communicate daily with God so that He can show me the next two steps of this long journey. Its not enough to ask once. In scripture Jesus had to ask God Three times why He was being crucified. (To seek is not enough. To knock is not enough. You must open the door to hear God's word). He didn't have to be crucified either and that entire event could have been avoided. Crucifixion is one of the most painful deaths. You die by suffocation. Your body nailed to the cross for days until you can no longer breathe b/c your diaphram grows weak.

Since I don't know why I'm here, I decided a while back to try and experience as much as I could that life has to offer. I love to philosophise and ponder my existence...but maybe there is a reason that man will never be able to understand his own existence... If there is a creator then I'm sure He did not intend for us to spend all our day contemplating such things...especially when He has given us this World and this Body to Enjoy.

Great thread isn't it fella's?

 

[thebrick]

As for me, I have resigned myself to the fact there is no way I will fully understand and that's OK. I love taking a crack at it though. Was it Steven Hawking that said the universe is stranger than we can imagine? But I do know one thing, our planet and this universe is a beautiful place and in this life, its all we have. And maybe that's our purpose? Just to be in tune with the underlying beauty of it all and make what miniscule parts we inhabit as individuals, a better place? And in that way, we are at one with the beauty of the cosmos?

 

[blackhole2]

I was born and raised in a Christian country.

Never understood most of catholicism as a child.

Lost any faith during my teen years.

Did a lot of soul search and started to believe in God again.

Kept doing my soul search and thinking about God instead of just swallowing beliefs that where regurgitated at me.

at the end of my journey I found freedom.

There is no God.

The man invented god as a way to explain anything that they can't explain or rationalize or to have hope when there is no hope.

Believers don't bother me but I find religions just sick as they exist just in order to split humanity instead of share: "you are one of us or one of them..."

People have the right to believe in whatever they want: Santa Claus, god, communism, George bush. I don't care and that is none of my business what they believe.

Unfortunately many believer don't show respect for people that disagree with their point of view and have as first reaction to try to debate or convince the non-believer how wrong he is and that is a paradox on its own, because if they truly believed in god they would let their god to do the conversion and talking.

Anyways if there is a god out there and he is omnipresent and omnipotent he can call my cel at any time.

Right now I have to work because no pray will pay my bills.